Ejection Fraction of 15

[pesty4077]

I would like to thank everyone for chiming in on this subject it obviuosly means a lot to me. Doggcrapp you are correct sir in your observation of my past. I guess becoming mortal scared me but now I am on board. Thank you for the advice.

Make sure you follow up with your Doctors and listen to them. I am the same age as you and we can't keep doing the same things like we did younger. Let's us know how it goes.

 

[chainheart]

[QUOTE=little slice - I use citrulline but it so sour

citrulline malate from nutra bio is tops - if it's too sour just dilute till you get where you like it. best performance to take with as little or no foods, at least that's what i noticed. and i always go about 4-6grams as i begin warm ups for leg day and dead lifts. it has always kicked in by the time im dying on 6th or 7th or however many sets i feel that i can walk away from without a heart attack.


Post not intended to diagnose or treat health issues.

 

[HangingOn]

Personally, I used it at 5g daily and it didn't change my already normal EF of 60. I also currently use the other supplements mentioned, as well as citrulline malate and taurine, and my EF stays at 60. I guess it won't go up from there no matter what, but at least it isn't going down. All the studies on them have shown they help people with below average EF's.

Probably should have used it at 15-20g. Matt Porter uses 20g.

Sent from my SM-N900V using Tapatalk

 

[nothuman]

Probably should have used it at 15-20g. Matt Porter uses 20g.

Sent from my SM-N900V using Tapatalk

Possibly, except it gets very expensive at those doses

 

[gotgame]

Nothing to add until we have more results and reasons for that EF. What CT did you have done?

Make sure you read the heart failure 1 year follow up thread and probably good to take a look at the cardiac plaque is it reversible thread just to become more familiar with a few things.

If that truely is an EF of 15%..THAT IS SERIOUS.

You may want to post up your medical health history...all of it. Recent labs, cycle history. any cardiac imaging history you have available. Your job right now is to become as knowledgable as you can on the topic and then refine that knowledge once you know the cause and extent.

 

[lhouay]

EKG doesn't but an echo cardiogram, CT scan of the chest, and chest MRI will

How's one to do this without insurance or a doctor's note?

 

[nothuman]

How's one to do this without insurance or a doctor's note?

Unfortunately, you can't without a doctor's visit. I think there is a place in Florida that allows you to do them without though (kind of like directlabs)

 

[maldorf]

do they check that? is an EKG what tells them?

No, EKG only shows how the electricity travels through the conduction system of the heart. It can show trouble though, and then that is followed up with an echocardiogram. The echo is what shows the EF. The measure the size of the left ventricle chamber during diastole and during systole.

 

[maldorf]

I went in for an Echo test and the call I received came from a nurse stating that my E.F. was at 15! She said I needed to get on a whole host of medications but when I questioned her about them she scheduled me for a Monday appointment with my Carduologist. At this point I joked and said it must not be to bad if your pushing me off to the Doctor next week and she said that it wasn't life threating at this time so you can see my confusion about this whole thing. Monday Cardiologist Tuesday Hemotoligist. He is going to tell me how my C.T. went.

Perhaps since you aren't having any bad symptoms they are saying this. Some people like me with an EF of 20% or less are just about bed ridden. Some cant go up steps without being winded and get water retention in the legs etc. I think because we are young and otherwise in good shape we can function. As we get older its going to get worse.

Are you taking any steroids now? If you are you need to stop today.

 

[Deleted member 106824]

Maldorf, Stewie, Gotgame, Dante, etc...

Any chance even TRT could cause problems? Maldorf I hear you say you were at 35% from gear and then got back up to 60% coming off....I have been on just 80-100mg of TRT for 7-8 months. My last blast was just injectables last winter. And yet I've seen no improvements from my echo last winter (in fact it went from 50% last winter to 40% this fall and 40% again this winter). I've taken every supplement out there with any research behind it for most of the last 7-8 months. And yet nothing. There is also no scar tissue seen so I really don't know why there was no improvement when from the anecdotal evidence and case studies I've seen most people who come off seem to get improvements. But at the same time I can't imagine 80mg of TRT causing an issue....my total test is ~550-600 and my Free Test is ~150.


I abused T3 for about 3 cuts....but again my use of it in the last year was strictly 50mcg and that was only for a few months. I haven't been on it since this summer (and haven't abused it in over 1.5 years) and my levels are totally normal now
TSH: 5.27 (0.40-4.50 mIU/L)
T4, Free: 1.3 (0.8-1.8 ng/dL)
T3, Free: 3.9 (2.3-4.2 pg/mL)

 

[maldorf]

Maldorf, Stewie, Gotgame, Dante, etc...

Any chance even TRT could cause problems? Maldorf I hear you say you were at 35% from gear and then got back up to 60% coming off....I have been on just 80-100mg of TRT for 7-8 months. My last blast was just injectables last winter. And yet I've seen no improvements from my echo last winter (in fact it went from 50% last winter to 40% this fall and 40% again this winter). I've taken every supplement out there with any research behind it for most of the last 7-8 months. And yet nothing. There is also no scar tissue seen so I really don't know why there was no improvement when from the anecdotal evidence and case studies I've seen most people who come off seem to get improvements. But at the same time I can't imagine 80mg of TRT causing an issue....my total test is ~550-600 and my Free Test is ~150.


I abused T3 for about 3 cuts....but again my use of it in the last year was strictly 50mcg and that was only for a few months. I haven't been on it since this summer (and haven't abused it in over 1.5 years) and my levels are totally normal now
TSH: 5.27 (0.40-4.50 mIU/L)
T4, Free: 1.3 (0.8-1.8 ng/dL)
T3, Free: 3.9 (2.3-4.2 pg/mL)

I would never take any T3 on your own if I were you, because of your issue. If something is wrong and your natural levels are low then see an endo and have them help you out. Sounds like you haven't taken much and its been awhile so it probably didn't do much harm but I wouldn't go there again.

As far as taking the HRT dose of 80-100 mg/wk causing an issue I don't think it should. If it were a danger then my cardiologists would have all said no. Only danger is your hemoglobin/hematocrit getting high but you can correct that with a phlebotomy every 3 months or as needed. Right now, and for the last 8 years since my big heart attack, ive been taking 100 mg/wk test and getting a phlebotomy once every 2 or 3 months. He keeps my hemoglobin around 15 which is safe. Keep an eye on yours.

Now for a reason for your EF going down, that I doubt even your doctor can pinpoint. I would wonder about possible compromised blood flow in a coronary artery maybe? Really hard to say, but if you see a cardiologist on a regular basis then I am sure they have that all under watch. With me, I have been able to maintain if not slightly increase my heart function. Eventually though it is inevitable that my EF is going to start going down as I age.

I was able to raise my EF before I had my heart attack by going off steroids to the point that my heart functioned normally. At the time I was taking the usual big cycle of like 800 test/750 EQ/ 500 Tren. Going off all that shit got me back to normal. That's what happened with me. I had idiopathic cardiomyopathy. After that experience Im almost certain it was the steroids that did it to me based on what happened when I got off.

Have you changed any of your meds? Meds like beta blockers will increase your EF by increasing the filling time of your left ventricle. This is because they lower your heart rate. Did you get off something of this sort? I would think your doctor would be on top of that though. Has your BP gone up? Having a higher BP would increase the workload of the heart and could weaken it if its already compromised, maybe lower the EF. Just some guesses.

For supplements I take Humanofort (3 caps a day) and 200mg Ubquinol 2x per day.

 

[Deleted member 106824]

I would never take any T3 on your own if I were you, because of your issue. If something is wrong and your natural levels are low then see an endo and have them help you out. Sounds like you haven't taken much and its been awhile so it probably didn't do much harm but I wouldn't go there again.

As far as taking the HRT dose of 80-100 mg/wk causing an issue I don't think it should. If it were a danger then my cardiologists would have all said no. Only danger is your hemoglobin/hematocrit getting high but you can correct that with a phlebotomy every 3 months or as needed. Right now, and for the last 8 years since my big heart attack, ive been taking 100 mg/wk test and getting a phlebotomy once every 2 or 3 months. He keeps my hemoglobin around 15 which is safe. Keep an eye on yours.

Now for a reason for your EF going down, that I doubt even your doctor can pinpoint. I would wonder about possible compromised blood flow in a coronary artery maybe? Really hard to say, but if you see a cardiologist on a regular basis then I am sure they have that all under watch. With me, I have been able to maintain if not slightly increase my heart function. Eventually though it is inevitable that my EF is going to start going down as I age.

I was able to raise my EF before I had my heart attack by going off steroids to the point that my heart functioned normally. At the time I was taking the usual big cycle of like 800 test/750 EQ/ 500 Tren. Going off all that shit got me back to normal. That's what happened with me. I had idiopathic cardiomyopathy. After that experience Im almost certain it was the steroids that did it to me based on what happened when I got off.

Have you changed any of your meds? Meds like beta blockers will increase your EF by increasing the filling time of your left ventricle. This is because they lower your heart rate. Did you get off something of this sort? I would think your doctor would be on top of that though. Has your BP gone up? Having a higher BP would increase the workload of the heart and could weaken it if its already compromised, maybe lower the EF. Just some guesses.

For supplements I take Humanofort (3 caps a day) and 200mg Ubquinol 2x per day.

Yea, definitely never touching thyroid meds again unless my endo requires it.

I agree, it seems like it should be no problem...I just can't figure out why mine didn't go up and actually got worse. You took way more than I ever did (longer periods at least) as well as growth hormone and yet you got back up to 60%. Yet I go off and go from 50% to 40%.

My CBC results have always been good, if not on the low side.

The only prescription meds I'm on now are Asacol HD for crohns, Vitamin D 50,000 iu EOW, and 80mg TRT (prescription is actually for 100mg but I brought it down to 4x20mg per week).

I am not on beta blockers or ACE inhibitors...but that may be the next step in the near future depending on what my MRI on 3/1/16 shows. I have no noticeable exercise intolerance in the gym, though I do seem to get a little more tired during some sex sessions honestly....but can sprint and do whatever at the gym with it feeling mostly like it always has. Stairs definitely leave me breathing hard...but they always have as long as I can remember.

I also already have a pretty low RHR (~50-60) and BP (105-115/65-75 most of the time).

I also added cardio in addition to all the supplements I was taking, and cut back on heavy lifting for lower body. I still push very hard on upper body lifts but it was always the heavy squats and deads that made my head feel like it was going to explode and get me near passing out. So my leg training is pretty lackluster nowadays but again that clearly didn't help.

Current regiment:
-500mg CoQ10 as Qsorb (experiment as I just got blood levels checked after taking no CoQ10 for a few months and levels were 0.73)
-1400mg Arjuna
-2-3g Taurine
-3-6g Citrulline

I also take fish oil and curcumin as always. Magnesium here and there. Used to take Ribose, ALCAR, and a few others. Didn't seem to help.

 

[DOGGCRAPP]

Maldorf, Stewie, Gotgame, Dante, etc...

Any chance even TRT could cause problems? Maldorf I hear you say you were at 35% from gear and then got back up to 60% coming off....I have been on just 80-100mg of TRT for 7-8 months. My last blast was just injectables last winter. And yet I've seen no improvements from my echo last winter (in fact it went from 50% last winter to 40% this fall and 40% again this winter). I've taken every supplement out there with any research behind it for most of the last 7-8 months. And yet nothing. There is also no scar tissue seen so I really don't know why there was no improvement when from the anecdotal evidence and case studies I've seen most people who come off seem to get improvements. But at the same time I can't imagine 80mg of TRT causing an issue....my total test is ~550-600 and my Free Test is ~150.


I abused T3 for about 3 cuts....but again my use of it in the last year was strictly 50mcg and that was only for a few months. I haven't been on it since this summer (and haven't abused it in over 1.5 years) and my levels are totally normal now
TSH: 5.27 (0.40-4.50 mIU/L)
T4, Free: 1.3 (0.8-1.8 ng/dL)
T3, Free: 3.9 (2.3-4.2 pg/mL)

When you say you abused T3 three times...give me an example of what you were doing please

 

[Deleted member 106824]

When you say you abused T3 three times...give me an example of what you were doing please

2012: 50mcg CEC (from Manpower way back...was overdosed...cytomel, ephedrine, caffeine) just for a few months. Temperatures were high and when I tested FT3 it was twice the upper normal range (8.1)...definitely overdosed. Then 25-50mcg for a few months of my bulk

2013: 50-150mcg T3 for 3-4 months cutting. UGL so no way to know the definitive dosing.

2014: 50-100mcg T3 and at times 200-400mcg T4...the T4 seemed to do absolutely nothing so I eventually just went with T3. Both doctor prescribed.

2015: 50mcg prescribed T3. Nothing crazy here.

So mostly a few months in each cut of 2012-2014. Levels are normal now as seen above.

Any thoughts?

 

[nothuman]

I tried one of the thryoid fat loss meds (T4) a few months ago at 100mcg to go along with a little GH. I figured it is good to take with GH and I can get a little extra metabolic boost out of it. I got greedy and started upping my dose to 200mcg. Before I knew it, my resting heart rate shot up to high 80s and sometimes even low 90s and I was petrified (most likely went hyperthyroid). Scared the living hell out of me, and took time for it to go back down. That was enough for me to never try T4 or T3 ever again. I'm paranoid already as it is. Just not worth it.

 

[Deleted member 106824]

I tried one of the thryoid fat loss meds (T4) a few months ago at 100mcg to go along with a little GH. I figured it is good to take with GH and I can get a little extra metabolic boost out of it. I got greedy and started upping my dose to 200mcg. Before I knew it, my resting heart rate shot up to high 80s and sometimes even low 90s and I was petrified (most likely went hyperthyroid). Scared the living hell out of me, and took time for it to go back down. That was enough for me to never try T4 or T3 ever again. I'm paranoid already as it is. Just not worth it.

T4 didn't do much for me even at high doses and in fact my T3 was still normal when I was taking a ton of T4.

I do wish I never took T3 though. Led to insane cravings like I've never experienced before (first time I ever started having unplanned cheats after 7 years of dieting each year incredibly strictly), muscle loss unless a lot of gear was taken....and now I wonder if it's use led to heart issues. Thyroid conditions can lead to heart issues but I'm not sure if a few diet seasons with high T3 could do the same long term.

 

[topfuel]

Doctors response

I went to the Cardiologist yesterday and went to the Hemotologist today. The Cardiologist said that all we need to do at this time is to get my blood pressure down and moniter it from here and my Hemotoligist said that my CT scan came out fine but he was wondering why I still had a high red blood cell count at this time. I have been completely honest with both of my doctors but they don't seem to be as worried about the results as I have. I have since got together with a great friend of mine who is a Chiropractor and bodybuilder himself along with an IFBB pro to get me on a strict diet and training program. They told me that I would probably lose 20 lbs. but I need to do that anyway. We will look how things go in the next month or two to see how things level out.

 

[Stewie]

I went to the Cardiologist yesterday and went to the Hemotologist today. The Cardiologist said that all we need to do at this time is to get my blood pressure down and moniter it from here and my Hemotoligist said that my CT scan came out fine but he was wondering why I still had a high red blood cell count at this time. I have been completely honest with both of my doctors but they don't seem to be as worried about the results as I have. I have since got together with a great friend of mine who is a Chiropractor and bodybuilder himself along with an IFBB pro to get me on a strict diet and training program. They told me that I would probably lose 20 lbs. but I need to do that anyway. We will look how things go in the next month or two to see how things level out.

There's always a reason. Yet some physicians will rely on the ole "idiopathic" or "essential" as a diagnosis.

If s/he checked your oxygen saturation there may be a good indication that you have OSA. Nocturnal hypoxia mixed with daytime hypoxemia (<90%) is very much associated with uncontrolled sleep apnea. Which could explain your elevated BP, as well.

If you haven't had a sleep study, yet. I'd highly encourage you to speak too one of your physicians to set you one up.

 

[Pekkerwood]

You need to listen to your cardiologist. Normal EF is about 60%...mild decrease is 35% to 50%, moderate decrease is 25% to 35% and severe decrease is below 25%...your mortality is at stake despite how you feel!

Bio, I give you much respect but this is something I know intimately. We do not disagree , but I would like to bring up the difference the description of the numbers makes in ones' life, not necessarily the numbers themselves.

What you are stating is the mildest language treatment of heart failure I have seen. The fact is, at 50%EF to 45% EF , they write on your chart, HEART FAILURE. Nothing mild about that language, nothing.

At sustained 30% or so you are getting an implant. Nobody I know would characterize that as moderate. Having a machine in your body is not moderate ( although I have been a machine in bodies before when I was younger LOL).


Again, much respect and my opinion is that these characterizations of those numbers is misleading.


PWood

 

[maldorf]

Bio, I give you much respect but this is something I know intimately. We do not disagree , but I would like to bring up the difference the description of the numbers makes in ones' life, not necessarily the numbers themselves.

What you are stating is the mildest language treatment of heart failure I have seen. The fact is, at 50%EF to 45% EF , they write on your chart, HEART FAILURE. Nothing mild about that language, nothing.

At sustained 30% or so you are getting an implant. Nobody I know would characterize that as moderate. Having a machine in your body is not moderate ( although I have been a machine in bodies before when I was younger LOL).


Again, much respect and my opinion is that these characterizations of those numbers is misleading.


PWood

I am shocked at how the OP describes the reaction of the doctors, saying that they aren't worried. None of this makes a bit of sense. With an EF of 15% they should be considering putting in a defibrillator, unless they figure it is the steroids and once he gets off the heart will come back. I had that happen to me once so I can personally attest to that, but my EF was only down to about 30% at that time. Something here just doesn't make any sense, the way the doctors are treating this. Is there something that the member that started this thread is leaving out?