Enclomiphene Citrate (Swifto)

[DOGGCRAPP]

Just because you have such definitive opinions on PCT drugs and i know you are very familiar with those boards, I would like to hear your take on Enclomiphene Citrate. I am unfamiliar with anyone who has taken it so i have nothing to go on but the literature. Clomid is two isomers ( zuclomiphene citrate ) and ( Enclomiphene Citrate ) and ive seen literature showing that the zuclo isomer is the far less potent isomer but there is buildup of toxicity and side effects with it......and that enclomiphene citrate is the main cog improving FSH and LH.

Have you come across anyone who has used it? Clomid in my opinion is the worst drug in bodybuilding for what it does for the psyche. I wonder now that its the single isomer if those depressive/anxiety effects are lessened greatly.

I would like to hear your thoughts and any experience first hand or second hand knowledge you have had with it. It is available at certain sites.

https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/17446651.2019.1612239

Error - Cookies Turned Off

bjui-journals.onlinelibrary.wiley.com

Testosterone restoration using enclomiphene citrate in men with secondary hypogonadism: a pharmacodynamic and pharmacokinetic study

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Enclomiphene Citrate Improves Hormone Levels While Preserving Sperm Production in Men With Secondary Hypogonadism

Use of 12.5-mg and 25-mg enclomiphene citrate significantly increased total testosterone levels in hypogonadal men, with an efficacy that was comparable to topical testosterone.

www.endocrineweb.com

Enclomiphene citrate: A treatment that maintains fertility in men with secondary hypogonadism - PubMed

Hypogonadism is an important issue among the male population. Treatments such as exogenous testosterone have become very popular. One of the adverse effects of testosterone is its suppression of fertility. This has lead to the use of alternative therapies such as selective estrogen receptor...

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

 

[gotgame]

I know of a few people who have used it since January 2020 when a compounding pharmacy started to offer it.

The people I know using it were all physicians who were on TRT prior to using enclo and wanted to come off for fertility reasons. They all restored normal LH and FSH production ( high end normal) within 6 weeks with total test levels on low end of normal. No pregnancies yet to speak of but with quarantine still going on i imagine there will be a few soon.

The issue with clomid is the zuclu isomer..its not such a concern a low doses but due to its ridculously long half live it can become an issue with longer term usage in some men. When you start cranking up the doses to 100mg a day plus with clomid it can become an issue much quicker. The zuclo isomer is a partial estrogen agonist so then you get all the agonist effects both on the HPTA, additional tissues and even a direct inhibition on sperm production on the testes level according to some papers i read.

I recently tried to restore fertility. I didnt have enclo as an option at that time but i sure wish i did. I didnt have any side effects from clomid while i kept it at 100mg and below but when i didnt respond at all for months i upped the doses ( 150, 200,250) and it messed me up badly ( vomiting, dizzyness) and i still didnt recover. I eventually said screw it...went back on TRT and added in HCG at 1500iu 3x a week and HMG 75 iu 3x/week. I feel great now and trying to have a child. If not successful by fall ill get a SA to see how i responded.

The guys who used enclo didnt have any side effects at 25mg a day.. I mean zero per my discussions with them and most of them have been on it for months but i think a few have decreased dose because labs were looking so good. It seems to be keeping there total test levels above 600 ng/dl plus and some guys were pushing a 1000 ng/dl but i think they added in a low dose AI with LH and FSH still high end normal. Id have to check in with them again to see what there recent labs and protocols are.

Overall i think clomid certainly has its uses for most men at this time as enclo is challenging to get from legit sources, at least when i checked. If you can get a script for it then you can acquire it from a reputable compounding pharmacy. If given the choice id certainly use enclo and i have suggested it to a few friends who are trying to come off of TRT.

 

[gotgame]

Just texted my buddy who i thought was pushing 1000ng/dl. He was actually mid 800s on total test from blood work at end of may. He stayed on 25mg enclo since Jan and added in an AI low dose in May. Says he feels good but not as great as being on TRT. No side effects. Didnt check free test.

 

[FrancisK]

Just texted my buddy who i thought was pushing 1000ng/dl. He was actually mid 800s on total test from blood work at end of may. He stayed on 25mg enclo since Jan and added in an AI low dose in May. Says he feels good but not as great as being on TRT. No side effects. Didnt check free test.

Was that number during or after? If after how long after?

Thanks for this info

 

[Knight9]

Was that number during or after? If after how long after?

Thanks for this info

He just told you. Enclo since Jan..Ai since May.

 

[FrancisK]

He just told you. Enclo since Jan..Ai since May.

Got a little excited, thanks for pointing it out.

 

[DOGGCRAPP]

I know of a few people who have used it since January 2020 when a compounding pharmacy started to offer it.

The people I know using it were all physicians who were on TRT prior to using enclo and wanted to come off for fertility reasons. They all restored normal LH and FSH production ( high end normal) within 6 weeks with total test levels on low end of normal. No pregnancies yet to speak of but with quarantine still going on i imagine there will be a few soon.

The issue with clomid is the zuclu isomer..its not such a concern a low doses but due to its ridculously long half live it can become an issue with longer term usage in some men. When you start cranking up the doses to 100mg a day plus with clomid it can become an issue much quicker. The zuclo isomer is a partial estrogen agonist so then you get all the agonist effects both on the HPTA, additional tissues and even a direct inhibition on sperm production on the testes level according to some papers i read.

I recently tried to restore fertility. I didnt have enclo as an option at that time but i sure wish i did. I didnt have any side effects from clomid while i kept it at 100mg and below but when i didnt respond at all for months i upped the doses ( 150, 200,250) and it messed me up badly ( vomiting, dizzyness) and i still didnt recover. I eventually said screw it...went back on TRT and added in HCG at 1500iu 3x a week and HMG 75 iu 3x/week. I feel great now and trying to have a child. If not successful by fall ill get a SA to see how i responded.

The guys who used enclo didnt have any side effects at 25mg a day.. I mean zero per my discussions with them and most of them have been on it for months but i think a few have decreased dose because labs were looking so good. It seems to be keeping there total test levels above 600 ng/dl plus and some guys were pushing a 1000 ng/dl but i think they added in a low dose AI with LH and FSH still high end normal. Id have to check in with them again to see what there recent labs and protocols are.

Overall i think clomid certainly has its uses for most men at this time as enclo is challenging to get from legit sources, at least when i checked. If you can get a script for it then you can acquire it from a reputable compounding pharmacy. If given the choice id certainly use enclo and i have suggested it to a few friends who are trying to come off of TRT.

Yikes I am just amazed at the 150-200-250 dosage...I am wondering how the heck you were able to drive at night with the streaks that kind of dosage causes with eyesight. Virtually anyone Ive seen with 100mg a day for great lengths of time becomes very emotional/anxious/depressive....how bad did those effects get with 150/200/250?

 

[thethinker48]

Yikes I am just amazed at the 150-200-250 dosage...I am wondering how the heck you were able to drive at night with the streaks that kind of dosage causes with eyesight. Virtually anyone Ive seen with 100mg a day for great lengths of time becomes very emotional/anxious/depressive....how bad did those effects get with 150/200/250?

I would rather adopt a child than have to take clomid to try to conceive one

Not even joking here

If anyone wants to experience the emotions of a pregnant woman, by all means take clomiphene

 

[Swifto]

Just because you have such definitive opinions on PCT drugs and i know you are very familiar with those boards, I would like to hear your take on Enclomiphene Citrate. I am unfamiliar with anyone who has taken it so i have nothing to go on but the literature. Clomid is two isomers ( zuclomiphene citrate ) and ( Enclomiphene Citrate ) and ive seen literature showing that the zuclo isomer is the far less potent isomer but there is buildup of toxicity and side effects with it......and that enclomiphene citrate is the main cog improving FSH and LH.

Have you come across anyone who has used it? Clomid in my opinion is the worst drug in bodybuilding for what it does for the psyche. I wonder now that its the single isomer if those depressive/anxiety effects are lessened greatly.

I would like to hear your thoughts and any experience first hand or second hand knowledge you have had with it. It is available at certain sites.

https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/17446651.2019.1612239

Error - Cookies Turned Off

bjui-journals.onlinelibrary.wiley.com

Testosterone restoration using enclomiphene citrate in men with secondary hypogonadism: a pharmacodynamic and pharmacokinetic study

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Enclomiphene Citrate Improves Hormone Levels While Preserving Sperm Production in Men With Secondary Hypogonadism

Use of 12.5-mg and 25-mg enclomiphene citrate significantly increased total testosterone levels in hypogonadal men, with an efficacy that was comparable to topical testosterone.

www.endocrineweb.com

Enclomiphene citrate: A treatment that maintains fertility in men with secondary hypogonadism - PubMed

Hypogonadism is an important issue among the male population. Treatments such as exogenous testosterone have become very popular. One of the adverse effects of testosterone is its suppression of fertility. This has lead to the use of alternative therapies such as selective estrogen receptor...

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

I unfortunately dont have any personal experience with Androxal. Its certainly an interesting drug.

The most comprehensive study I've seen was this one when compared to Androgel. And it found the dosage of 25mg per day seemed to produce the most favourable positive effects on gonadotropins. After 6 weeks at 25mg LH rose by 191% from 4.98 to 14.5. FSH was raised by 113% from 6.31 to 13.45.

TT was raised 156% from 298ng/dl to 764.3ng/dl after 6 weeks at 25mg.

 

[gotgame]

Yikes I am just amazed at the 150-200-250 dosage...I am wondering how the heck you were able to drive at night with the streaks that kind of dosage causes with eyesight. Virtually anyone Ive seen with 100mg a day for great lengths of time becomes very emotional/anxious/depressive....how bad did those effects get with 150/200/250?

Emotionally i was fine.

What happened is i was not responding to lower doses of clomid and everything else i was trying. I wasnt getting any sides at 100mg and i decided to increase the dose. I gave it from I think about April until mid october at more reasonable doses until i increase the doses that high. LH and FSH were almost not detectable. When i bumped it up to 150mg LH and FSH started to register but still incredibly low.

With respect to sides..at first i didnt konw what was going on. I was working two jobs and thought i was getting eye strain. I thought maybe the computer monitors were getting to me as i started to see "burned in images" when i closed my eyes or moved my vision id still be seeing things i was seeing a moment before. Id have to lay in a dark room eyes closed for 45 min and then get back to work in order to finish my shifts.

Then it got worse and i started getting hot and dizzy. It was late Nov and i was working an evening shift and i had to go outside. It was about 40 degrees outside and i was standing outside in a t shirt and then i started to vomit. I thought it was due to low carb diet i was on or something else.

Finally i said...well..ok i bet this is the clomid.. I stopped the clomid and within a week the sides went away. I resumed at a 50mg dose. I had no more sides but then my last set of blood work i think was early Jan and still no LH or FSH and test levels were under 30 ng/dl. Thats when i threw in the towel.

Clomid has its uses. Enclo is better if you can get it. Most people will recover very well using HCG, clomid/enclo, low dose AI however i was not one of them. Gotta know when to throw in the towel. I do wonder if i would have been able to recover using enclo and using a higher dose of that if needed but by the time i realize some compounding pharmacies were offering it ( i dont know how they are able to offer that but im not an expert on those laws/policies) i had already decided to go on TRT with HCG and HMG.

 

[KillerStack]

A year ago I talked to a doctor who had specialised in observing and treating anabolic steroid abusers for probably 30 years at University hospital. He is considered a leading authority on steroids and their sides here in Sweden. Lots of my friends got some HCG and clomid from him, never any steroids. Now he has switched to private private HRT practise. Instead of putting me on HRT he wanted to try clomid first. I told him it was a shitty drug with serious mental sides for many, and was unlikely to work in someone like myself. But the thing is he said he NEVER once heard of mental sides from clomid, only the vision effects. "Tell me more" he said. Was he BSing me for whatever reason or what?

 

[FrancisK]

A year ago I talked to a doctor who had specialised in observing and treating anabolic steroid abusers for probably 30 years at University hospital. He is considered a leading authority on steroids and their sides here in Sweden. Lots of my friends got some HCG and clomid from him, never any steroids. Now he has switched to private private HRT practise. Instead of putting me on HRT he wanted to try clomid first. I told him it was a shitty drug with serious mental sides for many, and was unlikely to work in someone like myself. But the thing is he said he NEVER once heard of mental sides from clomid, only the vision effects. "Tell me more" he said. Was he BSing me for whatever reason or what?

Probably a case of most doctors haven’t learned anything new since medical school and he’s just going by what he knows. The fact that he was curious about and didn’t altogether dismiss you is a good sign though.

 

[Swifto]

A year ago I talked to a doctor who had specialised in observing and treating anabolic steroid abusers for probably 30 years at University hospital. He is considered a leading authority on steroids and their sides here in Sweden. Lots of my friends got some HCG and clomid from him, never any steroids. Now he has switched to private private HRT practise. Instead of putting me on HRT he wanted to try clomid first. I told him it was a shitty drug with serious mental sides for many, and was unlikely to work in someone like myself. But the thing is he said he NEVER once heard of mental sides from clomid, only the vision effects. "Tell me more" he said. Was he BSing me for whatever reason or what?

I think a lot of the side effects such as vision problems are evident at higher doses of Comid. As little as 25mg Clomid has been shown to raise TT by 146% in hypogonadal males as shown in this study.

I haven't seen doses exceeding 150mg per day in a clinical setting for more than a week. Broscience would have you believe the increased doses of up to 300mg per day are needed but thats nonsense IMO.

 

[MR. BMJ]

I think one of the things people overlook with Clomid, as gotgame noted above, is it's excessively long half-life. This was something I never overlooked after it was pointed out to me many years back. I never had much negative effects from Clomid, maybe a little bit of emotional trips here and there, but that was usually when I was off and trying to recover, or if I went above 50-100mg/d. After the half-life was pointed out to me, I was fine taking it EOD at 25-50mg while on, and I never had any emotional bouts. That is a little off-topic from DC's initial post, but I feel many overlook that part of the compound. As for enclomiphene itself, I have never used it, nor do I know anybody personally who has. I hope we get more info on this part of using the compound, as it would be very beneficial if it cut out many of the sides.

I should note that I have not used any form of Clomid in many many years. TBH, I don't know how it would effect me these days, and the last thing I want is to get 'emotional' lol. I already cry too much in movies

 

[KillerStack]

Probably a case of most doctors haven’t learned anything new since medical school and he’s just going by what he knows. The fact that he was curious about and didn’t altogether dismiss you is a good sign though.

Yeah but his work involved seeing patients for decades, so that's why it was strange. This 70 yr old doc took 1.5 hours to go over my "steroid career" Asked me about all the exact compounds and dosages I'd used, asked about insulin, gh, igf-1, clen, said Proviron and Anavar were good and safe to bridge with or when planning to go off permanently (wtf), told me his highest dosing patients was doing 9 grams a week, tren was dangerous etc. He squeezed my tits and nuts. But no, I'd have to try HCG and Clomid before getting TRT - HRT is still a sensitive issue here, he basically said most hardcore juicers will try to squeeze in something extra but they are booted because they watch the blood work. I know they can't, because I know some if his patients, even bough some test off one of his patients

Anyway, strange he looked surprised when I mentioned clomid sides

Now personally I tried clomid a few times in the early years and didn't notice mood changes and I'm a sensitive guy

 

[KillerStack]

I think one of the things people overlook with Clomid, as gotgame noted above, is it's excessively long half-life. This was something I never overlooked after it was pointed out to me many years back. I never had much negative effects from Clomid, maybe a little bit of emotional trips here and there, but that was usually when I was off and trying to recover, or if I went above 50-100mg/d. After the half-life was pointed out to me, I was fine taking it EOD at 25-50mg while on, and I never had any emotional bouts. That is a little off-topic from DC's initial post, but I feel many overlook that part of the compound. As for enclomiphene itself, I have never used it, nor do I know anybody personally who has. I hope we get more info on this part of using the compound, as it would be very beneficial if it cut out many of the sides.

I should note that I have not used any form of Clomid in many many years. TBH, I don't know how it would effect me these days, and the last thing I want is to get 'emotional' lol. I already cry too much in movies

I seem to remember the forum wisdom was doing 300mg the first day and then 50 or 100mg. Supposedly took a long while to get effective plasma levels otherwise.

I remember an abstract that showed good test elevations in hypogonadal patients at only 5mg of tamox a day.

I've wondered if intermittent SERMs might be good to run during cycles or when you were cruising - that is if you might eventually leave all this behind. I think Dante talked about this way back. But these HRT experts like the Nelson guy say SERMs will not do shit even if you just use HCG. I suspect they might still work a bit but I haven't seen any data.

 

[DOGGCRAPP]

I seem to remember the forum wisdom was doing 300mg the first day and then 50 or 100mg. Supposedly took a long while to get effective plasma levels otherwise.

I remember an abstract that showed good test elevations in hypogonadal patients at only 5mg of tamox a day.

I've wondered if intermittent SERMs might be good to run during cycles or when you were cruising - that is if you might eventually leave all this behind. I think Dante talked about this way back. But these HRT experts like the Nelson guy say SERMs will not do shit even if you just use HCG. I suspect they might still work a bit but I haven't seen any data.

I still believe in that on very low dose test cruising or TRT....I just dont talk about it much openly anymore (there were just way too many arguments....and i just didnt want to deal with them anymore)

 

[gotgame]

I seem to remember the forum wisdom was doing 300mg the first day and then 50 or 100mg. Supposedly took a long while to get effective plasma levels otherwise.

I remember an abstract that showed good test elevations in hypogonadal patients at only 5mg of tamox a day.

I've wondered if intermittent SERMs might be good to run during cycles or when you were cruising - that is if you might eventually leave all this behind. I think Dante talked about this way back. But these HRT experts like the Nelson guy say SERMs will not do shit even if you just use HCG. I suspect they might still work a bit but I haven't seen any data.

I have not seen any lab work to show an increase in LH and FSH on cycle when adding in a SERM. I suppose...maybe at legit TRT doses it MIGHT but at bbing cycle doses... i just dont see it helping. if it did help someone id suspect they were an outlier

I have seen SERMS help LH and FSH during PCT when the person was still taking HCG though. Yes HCG can have some negative feedback but it seems that the SERMS can minimize that in many people but not all. Ive gone back and forth with that a bit as ive seen some papers say otherwise with HCG and then people telling me they didnt recover when they ran HCG along with clomid or tamox...but then i had people ive known for years send me there blood work while on HCG and clomid and there LH and FSH levels were elevated. I believe they let the HCG clear there systems so as to not get false LH readings but regardless the FSH levels were high. I dont recall the test readings so maybe its a range and if HCG pushes it too high then it may overwhelm it...i dunno...

Oh note. If you are planning on running clomid or tamox for an extended period of time and you are doing it to maintain test levels. Many people who were on TRT previously may still have the ability to get total test levels of 800 plus when taking clomid but quite a few of them had low free test likely due to the estrogenic effects of the meds. Just something to keep in mind when your getting labs and if you're like " hmmm my total test is in range but im really not feeling like i should". That may be different with enclo though and my buddies are feeling pretty decent.

 

[gotgame]

I still believe in that on very low dose test cruising or TRT....I just dont talk about it much openly anymore (there were just way too many arguments....and i just didnt want to deal with them anymore)

Im not sure why there were arguements..your a well respected member of the bbing community and should be treated as such as should most people.

Its possible that you personally do respond to SERMS while on TRT doses ( like 100-125mg). if you havent checked already it would be interesting to see what your LH and FSH levels are during that time as well as your test levels. I just dont see how ppl would respond on cycle doses but on TRT i think it MIGHT be possible as long as your not really in a supra state but the more data we have the better. Ive seen some guys try adding it in while on TRT unsuccessfully but im not about to make a blanket statement like it wont work on legit TRT doses.. if clomid can get someone up to say 800ng/dl on its own..its possible it can prevent the feedback from test in that same range but im just guessing.

 

[Swifto]

I have not seen any lab work to show an increase in LH and FSH on cycle when adding in a SERM. I suppose...maybe at legit TRT doses it MIGHT but at bbing cycle doses... i just dont see it helping. if it did help someone id suspect they were an outlier

I have seen SERMS help LH and FSH during PCT when the person was still taking HCG though. Yes HCG can have some negative feedback but it seems that the SERMS can minimize that in many people but not all. Ive gone back and forth with that a bit as ive seen some papers say otherwise with HCG and then people telling me they didnt recover when they ran HCG along with clomid or tamox...but then i had people ive known for years send me there blood work while on HCG and clomid and there LH and FSH levels were elevated. I believe they let the HCG clear there systems so as to not get false LH readings but regardless the FSH levels were high. I dont recall the test readings so maybe its a range and if HCG pushes it too high then it may overwhelm it...i dunno...

Oh note. If you are planning on running clomid or tamox for an extended period of time and you are doing it to maintain test levels. Many people who were on TRT previously may still have the ability to get total test levels of 800 plus when taking clomid but quite a few of them had low free test likely due to the estrogenic effects of the meds. Just something to keep in mind when your getting labs and if you're like " hmmm my total test is in range but im really not feeling like i should". That may be different with enclo though and my buddies are feeling pretty decent.

Once testicular dysfunction has been eliminated, there is really not much need for HCG IMO. We know the hypothalamus often recovers just fine therefore so does the pituitary (secondary hypogonadism). Once the testes are online and firing like they should be, kickstarted by HCG, SERM and AI treatment takes over.

I'm not sure HCG would even be required (before/during PCT) if there has been continuous HCG use on TRT or AAS usage which has prevented the testes from dysfunction and lowering the risk of primary hypogonadism. Why would HCG be needed at the start of PCT if the testes are functioning just fine and will respond to LH and FSH? Although its effects on beta-endorphin production would certainly be useful during PCT.

In terms of low dose Clomid combined with TRT to maintain LH/FSH, I wasn't one that believed it. I believe the negative feedback is too great to allow LH/FSH to begin functioning properly in the presence of exogenous testosterone. Perhaps this androgenic negative feedback threshold differs between people therefore some can get LH/FSH back faster than others, I'm not sure.

I have seen some evidence of Triptorelin the GnRH agonist restarting GnRH, LH and FSH when in the presence of androgens, but I admittedly haven't looked into it recently.