Enclomiphene Citrate (Swifto)

[bad rad]

Interesting study but it took a long time to get his HPTA working.

Acta Medica International

www.actamedicainternational.com

 

[gotgame]

Once testicular dysfunction has been eliminated, there is really not much need for HCG IMO. We know the hypothalamus often recovers just fine therefore so does the pituitary (secondary hypogonadism). Once the testes are online and firing like they should be, kickstarted by HCG, SERM and AI treatment takes over.

I'm not sure HCG would even be required (before/during PCT) if there has been continuous HCG use on TRT or AAS usage which has prevented the testes from dysfunction and lowering the risk of primary hypogonadism. Why would HCG be needed at the start of PCT if the testes are functioning just fine and will respond to LH and FSH? Although its effects on beta-endorphin production would certainly be useful during PCT.

In terms of low dose Clomid combined with TRT to maintain LH/FSH, I wasn't one that believed it. I believe the negative feedback is too great to allow LH/FSH to begin functioning properly in the presence of exogenous testosterone. Perhaps this androgenic negative feedback threshold differs between people therefore some can get LH/FSH back faster than others, I'm not sure.

I have seen some evidence of Triptorelin the GnRH agonist restarting GnRH, LH and FSH when in the presence of androgens, but I admittedly haven't looked into it recently.

If HCG was used throughout and it was a cycle and not continously on like many here then i agree. If testes were functioning then focus should be on LH and FSH production. Once testes are functioning its suprising how well SERMS and low dose AI can maintain production in most men even after they had been on for a long time.

Some guys dont use HCG throughout so it may take some time for some guys testes to start cranking again. There can also occassionally be some fibrosis that occurs in long term AAS/ TRT use so they may need a longer kick start then others assuming they can even recover full testicular function. I hadnt seen too much about that on the boards but i have seen ultrasounds of some guys on TRT and they often have some degree of fibrosis. I really dont know if its clinically significant or not.

I err on the side of using HCG a bit longer before/during early PCT if one has been on a while and hadnt used HCG throughout. There is also something to be said of getting blood work. If a guys LH and FSH are quite high during PCT and test levels are still low then they need to consider some degree of dysfuntion and maybe they need a decent dose of HCG to get them going again. so many guys go by feel which is challenging

As for the TRT and SERM.. i mean thats why i said MIGHT...because that negative feedback id imagine would be too much but some guys believe its possible so id be interested in seeing some blood work. If one could maintain some degree of endogenous LH and FSH levels that would be great and it would be new to me. I dont want to dismiss it completely but if i was a betting man id bet that exogenous test would just be too much. Always welcome discussion and blood work.

The GnRH agonists should work but guys need to make sure its accurate dosed hopefully from a pharmacy as you're aware leuprolide and the effects it could have. Most guys probably dont need it. I do wonder if it could have helped me but its too late for that.

 

[DOGGCRAPP]

Im not sure why there were arguements..your a well respected member of the bbing community and should be treated as such as should most people.

Its possible that you personally do respond to SERMS while on TRT doses ( like 100-125mg). if you havent checked already it would be interesting to see what your LH and FSH levels are during that time as well as your test levels. I just dont see how ppl would respond on cycle doses but on TRT i think it MIGHT be possible as long as your not really in a supra state but the more data we have the better. Ive seen some guys try adding it in while on TRT unsuccessfully but im not about to make a blanket statement like it wont work on legit TRT doses.. if clomid can get someone up to say 800ng/dl on its own..its possible it can prevent the feedback from test in that same range but im just guessing.

And it is ... its just a guess but i base it on a couple things.

Clomid works in normal healthy males with normal endogenous testosterone levels to raise their levels even higher (up to 304%) so there really isnt a feedback loop to depend on in that case.

https://digital.lib.washington.edu/researchworks/bitstream/handle/1773/4378/JCEM_1987_Effects_Aging_Normal.pdf?sequence=2&isAllowed=y

I am a power in numbers guy....clomid was used for decades during PCT, thats what people did. When something doesnt work in the endeavor of bodybuilding it is usually sent to the wayside very quickly. Virtually everyone used to end their cycle and immediately get on clomid for 2-4 weeks (mostly 2)...thats what they did (not saying thats the best way...just saying thats what they did). Everyone knows that exogenous testosterone doesnt just disappear magically 1 hour after your last shot especially if you have been injecting testosterone for many months...it can take up to 6 weeks to see subpar levels again. Obviously enough people believed in the merits of what clomid was doing for them during those PCT weeks when they did have diminishing exogenous testosterone still floating around their body. Was it placebo? It wasnt placebo with people with normal endogenous levels. Do i believe that clomid works best in an environment with zero exogenous test and low endogenous test? yes i do. Do i believe its worthless otherwise? Not entirely

 

[gotgame]

And it is ... its just a guess but i base it on a couple things.

Clomid works in normal healthy males with normal endogenous testosterone levels to raise their levels even higher (up to 304%) so there really isnt a feedback loop to depend on in that case.

https://digital.lib.washington.edu/researchworks/bitstream/handle/1773/4378/JCEM_1987_Effects_Aging_Normal.pdf?sequence=2&isAllowed=y

I am a power in numbers guy....clomid was used for decades during PCT, thats what people did. When something doesnt work in the endeavor of bodybuilding it is usually sent to the wayside very quickly. Virtually everyone used to end their cycle and immediately get on clomid for 2-4 weeks (mostly 2)...thats what they did (not saying thats the best way...just saying thats what they did). Everyone knows that exogenous testosterone doesnt just disappear magically 1 hour after your last shot especially if you have been injecting testosterone for many months...it can take up to 6 weeks to see subpar levels again. Obviously enough people believed in the merits of what clomid was doing for them during those PCT weeks when they did have diminishing exogenous testosterone still floating around their body. Was it placebo? It wasnt placebo with people with normal endogenous levels. Do i believe that clomid works best in an environment with zero exogenous test and low endogenous test? yes i do. Do i believe its worthless otherwise? Not entirely

I am not sure if we ever spoke before so i dont know if you are on TRT or what but if you are on legit TRT doses it would be interesting to see if clomid is enough to block the exogenous test usage in you personally. If you do ever get around to that let us know.

Its really academic mostly at this point just to see as most guys who are legit TRT doses in which are low enough to potentionally not overwhelm the SERM are on TRT for life for at least for very long periods of time. If they are looking to maintain fertility then they are often going the HCG route with possible HMG and as was previously mentioned most guys respond to SERMS really quickly off AAS/TRT.

 

[j2048b]

Ive used clomid for trt, it was ok, total test was above 600 while on clomid alone and i still used anatrozole weekly

i used it to help fertility while on trt (test injections clomid,and while using hcg) , and got the wifey prego, she used clomid for a few other pregnancies as well, while i was on trt and hcg, and i never noticed her being odd mood wise, while i used clomid, i did notice some kind of mood stuff after a while, but not severe mood issues...

 

[KillerStack]

Theoretically, if one attempted a restart of the HPTA after very extensive use, how might triptorelin best be used, perhaps in combination with other PCT drugs? Maybe a period of HCG, the one 1mg of Tripto, then followed up with a course a course of SERMs?

I remember reading some rat data suggesting shutting off testosterone keeps the testes young, they are not aging while in hibernation, and are raring to go like a young animals once you let the system resume production. Unfortunately this doesn't seem to transfer to humans

 

[Swifto]

Theoretically, if one attempted a restart of the HPTA after very extensive use, how might triptorelin best be used, perhaps in combination with other PCT drugs? Maybe a period of HCG, the one 1mg of Tripto, then followed up with a course a course of SERMs?

I remember reading some rat data suggesting shutting off testosterone keeps the testes young, they are not aging while in hibernation, and are raring to go like a young animals once you let the system resume production. Unfortunately this doesn't seem to transfer to humans

This is the problem with Triptoerlin (dosing). Use too little and it wont have an effect. Use to much and you're going to cause endogenous hormone levels that resemble someone thats been castrated.

If HCG hasn't been used for months, then I'd remain on TRT and introduce HCG at a decent dose for probably 21-30 days. Them, assuming you were able to directly stimulate the testes, come "off" TRT and begin SERM treatment. An AI could be added if TT climbed a fair amount.

I'd try the above before going near Triptorelin. The other issue is getting hold of it. Chinese sources are notorious for claiming they have a compound when they dont and if they got the dosing wrong you're in trouble. I'd find a lab first to run some tests on what product you have 100%.

If all was correct, I think 1-5mg would be where I'd start. 100mg is used to halt ganadotropins in medical settings from what I've read.

But LH and FSH would have to be hypogonadal levels even after lengthy SERM treatment (months).

 

[KillerStack]

This is the problem with Triptoerlin (dosing). Use too little and it wont have an effect. Use to much and you're going to cause endogenous hormone levels that resemble someone thats been castrated.

If HCG hasn't been used for months, then I'd remain on TRT and introduce HCG at a decent dose for probably 21-30 days. Them, assuming you were able to directly stimulate the testes, come "off" TRT and begin SERM treatment. An AI could be added if TT climbed a fair amount.

I'd try the above before going near Triptorelin. The other issue is getting hold of it. Chinese sources are notorious for claiming they have a compound when they dont and if they got the dosing wrong you're in trouble. I'd find a lab first to run some tests on what product you have 100%.

If all was correct, I think 1-5mg would be where I'd start. 100mg is used to halt ganadotropins in medical settings from what I've read.

But LH and FSH would have to be hypogonadal levels even after lengthy SERM treatment (months).

Yeah in best case scenario you could run labs frequently throughout to know what's happening. IIRC Matt Porter tried the Tripo but it didn't do anything for him. I think he did HCG and SERMs too but his LH didn't budge much. Some data says LH recover fast most of the time but otoh many report that their LH is permanently crashed.

My thought was to first get the testes cranking with HCG, then do just one shot of 100mcg (wrote 1mg by mistake) Tripto to kickstart the system and then follow up by quite a long run of SERM and tapering down slowly to make it all "hold". But this is just theorizing in case I someday I say fuck it, I'm done

 

[Swifto]

Yeah in best case scenario you could run labs frequently throughout to know what's happening. IIRC Matt Porter tried the Tripo but it didn't do anything for him. I think he did HCG and SERMs too but his LH didn't budge much. Some data says LH recover fast most of the time but otoh many report that their LH is permanently crashed.

My thought was to first get the testes cranking with HCG, then do just one shot of 100mcg (wrote 1mg by mistake) Tripto to kickstart the system and then follow up by quite a long run of SERM and tapering down slowly to make it all "hold". But this is just theorizing in case I someday I say fuck it, I'm done

Yeah, I've typo'd too with mg and mcg.

**broken link removed**

 

[j4ever]

Ive used clomid for trt, it was ok, total test was above 600 while on clomid alone and i still used anatrozole weekly

i used it to help fertility while on trt (test injections clomid,and while using hcg) , and got the wifey prego, she used clomid for a few other pregnancies as well, while i was on trt and hcg, and i never noticed her being odd mood wise, while i used clomid, i did notice some kind of mood stuff after a while, but not severe mood issues...

i used it at 25mg a day for trt for a little while, i added a small amount of AI with it, i dont remember the exact numbers but i think my total was in the 600s, but like many people i had the numbers but not the mental aspects of true TRT, i would also walk around beet red in the face, 2 times i had vessels in my eye pop so you can imagine what that looked like, i would get emotional on it and i would also snap like i was having raging PMS, i did that 1 day while i was driving with my little girl in the car, and after that i knew it was time to get off that shit and get on test.

 

[jstrong20]

I see some high doses of clomid. I go no higher then 50 mgs first week then 25 the rest. Works fine. Would try enclomiphine if one of my suppliers carried it. Have used nolvadex for PCt as week.

 

[Needmassquick]

I have not seen any lab work to show an increase in LH and FSH on cycle when adding in a SERM. I suppose...maybe at legit TRT doses it MIGHT but at bbing cycle doses... i just dont see it helping. if it did help someone id suspect they were an outlier

I have seen SERMS help LH and FSH during PCT when the person was still taking HCG though. Yes HCG can have some negative feedback but it seems that the SERMS can minimize that in many people but not all. Ive gone back and forth with that a bit as ive seen some papers say otherwise with HCG and then people telling me they didnt recover when they ran HCG along with clomid or tamox...but then i had people ive known for years send me there blood work while on HCG and clomid and there LH and FSH levels were elevated. I believe they let the HCG clear there systems so as to not get false LH readings but regardless the FSH levels were high. I dont recall the test readings so maybe its a range and if HCG pushes it too high then it may overwhelm it...i dunno...

Oh note. If you are planning on running clomid or tamox for an extended period of time and you are doing it to maintain test levels. Many people who were on TRT previously may still have the ability to get total test levels of 800 plus when taking clomid but quite a few of them had low free test likely due to the estrogenic effects of the meds. Just something to keep in mind when your getting labs and if you're like " hmmm my total test is in range but im really not feeling like i should". That may be different with enclo though and my buddies are feeling pretty decent.

Stumbled upon this thread thanks to Matsuo's recommendation. Great reading. I just wanted to add here that I will be trying enclomiphene soon and what I've read in the studies supports what gotgame is saying above. I've seen studies showing increased FSH and LH while taking clomid even though the subjects were on HCG. And also as he mentioned in these studies even when the total testosterone is the same as those on TRT it turns out that those on clomid have higher estrogen, lower free test, higher SHBG, and lower DHT so all reasons someone might not feel as good on clomid even with the same testosterone levels. Will be interesting to see what happens with the enclomiphene.

Once testicular dysfunction has been eliminated, there is really not much need for HCG IMO. We know the hypothalamus often recovers just fine therefore so does the pituitary (secondary hypogonadism). Once the testes are online and firing like they should be, kickstarted by HCG, SERM and AI treatment takes over.

I'm not sure HCG would even be required (before/during PCT) if there has been continuous HCG use on TRT or AAS usage which has prevented the testes from dysfunction and lowering the risk of primary hypogonadism. Why would HCG be needed at the start of PCT if the testes are functioning just fine and will respond to LH and FSH? Although its effects on beta-endorphin production would certainly be useful during PCT.

When you say testiscular dysfunction has been eliminated, are you referring to just getting them to produce testosterone normally again or sperm as well? I had almost immediate recovery of testosterone production with HCG and FSH but still no sperm recovery 4 months later. Still completely atrophied there as well.


Lastly, gotgame mentioned earlier in the thread that estrogen could independently have negative effects on fertility. Would this be the case even when taking HCG and FSH? My estradiol is around 45 right now so a little over the range and I imagine will go even higher with enclomiphene

 

[asdasd]

Where did u buy it kid?

 

[b_cornelius]

Read through this thread carefully. "Fibrosis of the Testes" get brought up with long term androgen use, including those "TRT" doses. That's why we (used to) cycle. That's why we (used to) come off.

I've been concerned about a sort of fibrosis that occurs throughout the body in various tissue types, even stalling muscle growth itself. But wow, fibrosis of the Testes, that one caught me. It sounds as if it could be an elementary joke, but no, it's more of the same sort of thing that I see everywhere.

 

[Type-IIx]

Read through this thread carefully. "Fibrosis of the Testes" get brought up with long term androgen use, including those "TRT" doses. That's why we (used to) cycle. That's why we (used to) come off.

I've been concerned about a sort of fibrosis that occurs throughout the body in various tissue types, even stalling muscle growth itself. But wow, fibrosis of the Testes, that one caught me. It sounds as if it could be an elementary joke, but no, it's more of the same sort of thing that I see everywhere.

Sounds scary for sure, but I've never seen an association with AAS and testicular fibrosis. It's something that is associated with a genetic condition called Klinefelter Syndrome (XX, XXX chromosome males). The association with AAS use is spurious. Conversely, there's been observed Leydig cell death in RATS from very, very, very high acute hCG doses... yet the opposite (creation of Leydig cells) has been observed in humans with sane acute doses.

 

[DOGGCRAPP]

Just some interesting reading i thought i would add to this post regarding Taurine and where this post is going....

Amelioration of nandrolone decanoate-induced testicular and sperm toxicity in rats by taurine: effects on steroidogenesis, redox and inflammatory cascades, and intrinsic apoptotic pathway - PubMed

The wide abuse of the anabolic steroid nandrolone decanoate by athletes and adolescents for enhancement of sporting performance and physical appearance may be associated with testicular toxicity and infertility. On the other hand, taurine; a free β-amino acid with remarkable antioxidant...

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Up To 180% Increase in Testosterone w/ Taurine? Androgen Boost Just One of the "Side Effects" of Cysteine Derivative That Won't Benefit (Pre-)Diabetic Baby-Boomers, Only

The latest news from the realms of exercise, nutrition and supplementation science.

suppversity.blogspot.com

Effects of Taurine on Testosterone Secretion and Its Mechanism

Taurine induces autophagy and inhibits oxidative stress in mice Leydig cells

This study evaluated taurine (TAU) effects on autophagy, apoptosis and oxidative stress in mice Leydig TM3 cells.We treated TM3 cells with TAU (100 µg/mL) or 3-Methyladenine (3-MA, an autophagy inhibitor) for 24 h, and assessed cell viability, ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

 

[asdasd]

Any fast delivery sources of it?

 

[Type-IIx]

Just some interesting reading i thought i would add to this post regarding Taurine and where this post is going....

Amelioration of nandrolone decanoate-induced testicular and sperm toxicity in rats by taurine: effects on steroidogenesis, redox and inflammatory cascades, and intrinsic apoptotic pathway - PubMed

The wide abuse of the anabolic steroid nandrolone decanoate by athletes and adolescents for enhancement of sporting performance and physical appearance may be associated with testicular toxicity and infertility. On the other hand, taurine; a free β-amino acid with remarkable antioxidant...

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Up To 180% Increase in Testosterone w/ Taurine? Androgen Boost Just One of the "Side Effects" of Cysteine Derivative That Won't Benefit (Pre-)Diabetic Baby-Boomers, Only

The latest news from the realms of exercise, nutrition and supplementation science.

suppversity.blogspot.com

Effects of Taurine on Testosterone Secretion and Its Mechanism

Taurine induces autophagy and inhibits oxidative stress in mice Leydig cells

This study evaluated taurine (TAU) effects on autophagy, apoptosis and oxidative stress in mice Leydig TM3 cells.We treated TM3 cells with TAU (100 µg/mL) or 3-Methyladenine (3-MA, an autophagy inhibitor) for 24 h, and assessed cell viability, ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Yes, Dante, Taurine is good stuff. Everyone should just be aware of its short plasma half-life (about 1 hr). It's especially potent in modulating intracellular calcium (cramps, pumps).

From my notes on Clen:

Taurine ✓
Muscle cramps due to electrolyte imbalance (hypokalemia and hyperglycemia mostly) is ameliorated by oral administration of Taurine.

Taurine function by replacing the missing nutrients in the body. Taurine, as a single agent, presents different functions like substrate for formation of bile salts, cell volume regulation, modulation of intracellular calcium, cytoprotection of central nervous system, etc [14].

Oral administration of taurine in healthy individuals gave a plasma elimination half-life that ranged from 0.7-1.4 h [14]. In healthy individuals a clearance rate that ranged from 14 to 34.4 L/h [14].

++ modulation of intracellular Ca in skeletal muscle

 

[aphextwin]

Yes, Dante, Taurine is good stuff. Everyone should just be aware of its short plasma half-life (about 1 hr). It's especially potent in modulating intracellular calcium (cramps, pumps).

From my notes on Clen:

Taurine ✓
Muscle cramps due to electrolyte imbalance (hypokalemia and hyperglycemia mostly) is ameliorated by oral administration of Taurine.

Taurine function by replacing the missing nutrients in the body. Taurine, as a single agent, presents different functions like substrate for formation of bile salts, cell volume regulation, modulation of intracellular calcium, cytoprotection of central nervous system, etc [14].

Oral administration of taurine in healthy individuals gave a plasma elimination half-life that ranged from 0.7-1.4 h [14]. In healthy individuals a clearance rate that ranged from 14 to 34.4 L/h [14].

++ modulation of intracellular Ca in skeletal muscle

I didn’t know it had such a short half life. I take between 10 grams twice a day.