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Endogenous and exogenous Testosterone - What's the difference?

Warbeard

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Hey guys. This board has lots of very educated people. So I think this is the right place to ask questions to learn something new.
Let me tell you what brought me to start this thread. I've been on for about 18 months, but decided to come off. I spent a month tapering my T dosage from 100 mg prop ED to 10 mg ED. So the last week of my cycle was 12.5mg prop + 12.5 mg masteron daily. Not too much eh? Still I was increasing poundage every workout while leaning out and losing a very small amount of muscle tissue if any. Even though that I was lifting HIT style just twice a week and doing martial arts 4-5 days a week (not super intense but still). My previous experience with cruising was about the same: when dramatically dropping T dose (I would usually blast with 100mg prop ED and cruise with 50mg EOD... comparable with an HRT dose, is it not?) I was losing next to no muscle tissue while leaning out.
Now here comes the interesting part. I've been off for 2 months (during which I did pretty agressive PCT) and my T came back 762 (decent result, higher than average, I was surprised actually). So I take it I'm about recovered. 2 weeks post cycle it was also in normal range although lower than recently; that was several days after I injected trip. If I understand correctly, 700s is a T level which is usually achieved with a TRT dose of about 150mg T enanthate or cyp weekly.
BUT I feel nothing like when I was on 12.5-25mg prop ED in the end of cycle! I lost much size (not that I ever was big by this board's standards) and body composition deteriorated a bit. Also I lost strength.

So let me sum this up:
90-180mg exogenous T propionate = body recomposition, retaining muscle, getting stronger; good mood; libido higher than average.
762 endogenous T = adding a little BF; losing muscle big time
(well I don't think I'm still losing any but I've lost a lot while my T being in normal range during PCT); lost lots of strength (slowly progressing now); mood is ok I guess; libido somewhat lower.

So the question is: what's the deal with that? I doubt an HRT dose of prop could raise my T well over 700s. Yet I feel a hell lot better, especially in the training department, on low dose exogenous T.

First, this is interesting in theoretical regard. What makes exogenous T stronger than endogenous? Talking about sides, a vet here told me that high endogenous T (1000s and higher) is not a health concern while if you get such bloodwork results on HRT u should lower your dose in order not to raise RBC\henatocrit.
Perhaps part of it is the pulsatile nature of endogenous T while exogenous is always there and maintains a pretty steady blood concentration? Perhaps exogenous T does lower SBHG (I saw a research on that on some board)? Maybe that sounded dumb so I count on you more knowledgeable guys to chime in here.

Secondly, in practical regard, I wonder what'll happen if I can drive my endogenous T to 1000s with stuff like DAA, tribulus etc? Will it do any good in training department, will I feel like on low dose T or what? I'm not planning to get back on any time soon after reading some threads on this forum, as long as I can get any progress without AS at all. What's your opinion guys.

Sorry for a very long post! Thank you in advance for your response.
 
First, what was your PCT? I doubt VERY much you came back to 700s test after being on for well over a year that fast, your test results are probably from things you did in PCT still stimulating test production.

180mg/week of prop probably puts you around 1200ish total test.

As you suspected, SHBG is probably binding up your testosterone, you need to get a Free Testosterone test along with the total.

Tell us more about your PCT, any ancillaries you ran while on, and an exact timeline on bloodwork and we can help you further.

At the molecular level, exo and endo are exactly the same, interactions with SHBG, 5AR, and Aromatase are the main differences. The non-pulsatile nature of exo causes more metabolism to DHT and Estradiol.

Remember also that there is competitive inhibition between estradiol and testosterone, so knowing your E2 level is important.

You probably have hyperactive aromatase from being on for a long period of time.
 
I think the reason prop feels good is that it raises levels quickly,giving you that feel good feeling.For me running the same hrt dose of 200mg makes me feel like crap{low libido,bad e.d.,no feel good feeling.}.Now when i alternate my doses between 180mg and 220mg a week i feel great.Some peoples bodies respond better to changing hormone levels.
 
First, what was your PCT? I doubt VERY much you came back to 700s test after being on for well over a year that fast, your test results are probably from things you did in PCT still stimulating test production.
Thank you for your response! Well yes, I did bloodwork during PCT. My PCT consisted of 500 hcg EOD for 15 days and than slowly tapering down during the next 15 days while on low dose T with 20mg nolva to resensitize Leydig cells and 0.5 arimidex EOD to control estrogen. Then I got off and started 100mg clomid, 120 mg fareston, 20mg nolva ED with 0.25mg arimidex EOD. BTW these 2 weeks of high dose SERMs were awesome in regard of libido. Better than any time on cycle. In two weeks I read some great feedback on triptorelin on this board, got some from a pharmacy and injected 100 units (1 dose, as laid out here). I stopped administering SERMs to assess how triptorelin works solo. I had bloodwork some 3-4 days later and my T was somewhere about 400 I believe, there was some strange other measurement - 3.76 reference being 1.7-7 or smth. Libido kinda crushed so I got back on SERMs. Some days later I lowered doses to 50mg clomid, 60mg fareston, 20mg nolva and ran all this for 4 weeks along with arimidex. In the end of that period I had bloodwork and T came back 762.
I'm also constantly running caber at 0.25 mg every 4 days. Just like my sex better that way.

180mg/week of prop probably puts you around 1200ish total test.
But what about 90 mg?

Remember also that there is competitive inhibition between estradiol and testosterone, so knowing your E2 level is important.

You probably have hyperactive aromatase from being on for a long period of time.
I doubt that as I was running an AI almost all the time and still am. I switched from 0.25 dex EOD to 5mg exemestane ED yesterday.
 
Thank you for your response! Well yes, I did bloodwork during PCT. My PCT consisted of 500 hcg EOD for 15 days and than slowly tapering down during the next 15 days while on low dose T with 20mg nolva to resensitize Leydig cells and 0.5 arimidex EOD to control estrogen. Then I got off and started 100mg clomid, 120 mg fareston, 20mg nolva ED with 0.25mg arimidex EOD. BTW these 2 weeks of high dose SERMs were awesome in regard of libido. Better than any time on cycle. In two weeks I read some great feedback on triptorelin on this board, got some from a pharmacy and injected 100 units (1 dose, as laid out here). I stopped administering SERMs to assess how triptorelin works solo. I had bloodwork some 3-4 days later and my T was somewhere about 400 I believe, there was some strange other measurement - 3.76 reference being 1.7-7 or smth. Libido kinda crushed so I got back on SERMs. Some days later I lowered doses to 50mg clomid, 60mg fareston, 20mg nolva and ran all this for 4 weeks along with arimidex. In the end of that period I had bloodwork and T came back 762.
I'm also constantly running caber at 0.25 mg every 4 days. Just like my sex better that way.


But what about 90 mg?


I doubt that as I was running an AI almost all the time and still am. I switched from 0.25 dex EOD to 5mg exemestane ED yesterday.

One thing that happens when you take AAS is that your body starts trying to break it down faster by increased aromatase activity, this might be one of the main things that keeps you shut down. Sure you can counter it with an AI, but this just encourages further aromatase activity (marco says only aromasin does not).

Your high test levels are definitely from your PCT. The AI will continue to simulate you to some extent, feedback loop is: estradiol>GNRH>LH>testosterone, but when you stop the AI your will most likely aromatize at a very high rate and shut yourself down again from the estradiol feedback inhibition.

90mg of prop/week is probably equal to around 100mg of cyp which would put me around 600ish, you would be slightly higher if you used HCG also at that dose.

How old are you? Have you considered HRT?
 

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