EOD (3-4x per week) training for optimal growth?

[hawkmoon]

Do you ever do something like dips or close grip presses in your routine?
That’s the one thing I find tricky about putting triceps with legs opposite to upper compared to the classic DC split which has triceps on the upper body day.

I have in the past, but prefer the more "detailed" isolation exercises.
I feel with this particular split it gives a nice balance ot the heavy load from pressing on the other day. My arms are sub-standard so this gives me more growth opportunities.

 

[hawkmoon]

I wanted to share a quick update regarding my current training structure and the rationale behind it.

This week, I’ve entered a de-load, transitioning to a three-day split (with 2 weeks of sub-failure training) to better manage systemic stress:

• Monday - Chest / Shoulders / Triceps
• Wednesday - Back / Biceps / Rear Delts
• Friday - Legs (Shifted to the end of the week, preceding a 48-hour weekend recovery block)

The Rationale
While my muscular recovery is fine, my CNS has reached a point of significant accumulation - it's fried.
I beleive muscular overtraining can often be mitigated through optimized nutrition, sleep, and gear; however, the CNS is a finite resource.
When that "bucket" is emptied, the recovery timeline is non-linear and significantly longer. My bucket probably has age-related holes as well.

I have been experiencing chronic lethargy and systemic fatigue, only reaching peak arousal once adrenaline spikes during a session, followed by a total crash immediately after. I don't like figthing to stay awake on public transpport on the way home.
This appears to be a disruption in my sympathetic/parasympathetic rhythm, likely a conditioned response from over 40 years of non-stop training. My body recognizes these physiological "waves" and manages them, but a reset is required.

This shift allows for better stress distribution and ensures that the highest-demand session (Legs) is followed by a full 48 hours of rest. We will see....

 

[fisther69]

Kinda depends on the individual..I train 7 days a week and just take days off as needed…in the past when I try to do what you are talking about I get slower and weaker.

I have learned to auto regulate the volume, weight, and intensity…but purposely training less days has never worked for me.

Again, purely individual..myself and others here with similar backgrounds have likely developed a workload where it’s the only way we respond.

 

[Siggy]

The optimal method is the one where you keep making incremental progress every time, even if its just more a few more reps or just 10 more lbs.

 

[Flocci]

I wanted to share a quick update regarding my current training structure and the rationale behind it.

This week, I’ve entered a de-load, transitioning to a three-day split (with 2 weeks of sub-failure training) to better manage systemic stress:

• Monday - Chest / Shoulders / Triceps
• Wednesday - Back / Biceps / Rear Delts
• Friday - Legs (Shifted to the end of the week, preceding a 48-hour weekend recovery block)

The Rationale
While my muscular recovery is fine, my CNS has reached a point of significant accumulation - it's fried.
I beleive muscular overtraining can often be mitigated through optimized nutrition, sleep, and gear; however, the CNS is a finite resource.
When that "bucket" is emptied, the recovery timeline is non-linear and significantly longer. My bucket probably has age-related holes as well.

I have been experiencing chronic lethargy and systemic fatigue, only reaching peak arousal once adrenaline spikes during a session, followed by a total crash immediately after. I don't like figthing to stay awake on public transpport on the way home.
This appears to be a disruption in my sympathetic/parasympathetic rhythm, likely a conditioned response from over 40 years of non-stop training. My body recognizes these physiological "waves" and manages them, but a reset is required.

This shift allows for better stress distribution and ensures that the highest-demand session (Legs) is followed by a full 48 hours of rest. We will see....

Great breakdown and i couldnt agree more on the systemic(cns) vs local(muscle) fatigue outpacing your recovery and you end up trashed with fatigue and feel like shit. I used to run in to this problem when i was training more HIT/yates/jordan peters style where i ended up so fatigued and overreached in the end that my warmups of 8-10 reps became a slow grinding 4-5 rep to failure where you just feel the joint moving, no mind muscle connection, no tension where you want it, just stress on joints and ligaments cuz your muscle and CNS doesnt want to cooperate.

Then i learned more about the whys and hows of deloads, reps in reserve and the sad truth that i personally do better not driving my CNS into the ground going to failure so much by keeping a rep in reserve most of the time. Also making sure im not prolonging worksets with pauses between reps turning it into a rest pause, more thoughtout exercise selection and choosing where i place to ball busting sets that leave you staring blank at the wall for 5 minutes after you finish the set cuz your so fried lol.


Sorry for the rant, i was going to ask if you have experimented with not taking so many sets to failure, reps in reserve or similar things and seeing if that helps you prolong the time before you need a deload and get more productive training, operating and feeling better throughout the days too.

 

[hawkmoon]

Great breakdown and i couldnt agree more on the systemic(cns) vs local(muscle) fatigue outpacing your recovery and you end up trashed with fatigue and feel like shit. I used to run in to this problem when i was training more HIT/yates/jordan peters style where i ended up so fatigued and overreached in the end that my warmups of 8-10 reps became a slow grinding 4-5 rep to failure where you just feel the joint moving, no mind muscle connection, no tension where you want it, just stress on joints and ligaments cuz your muscle and CNS doesnt want to cooperate.

Then i learned more about the whys and hows of deloads, reps in reserve and the sad truth that i personally do better not driving my CNS into the ground going to failure so much by keeping a rep in reserve most of the time. Also making sure im not prolonging worksets with pauses between reps turning it into a rest pause, more thoughtout exercise selection and choosing where i place to ball busting sets that leave you staring blank at the wall for 5 minutes after you finish the set cuz your so fried lol.


Sorry for the rant, i was going to ask if you have experimented with not taking so many sets to failure, reps in reserve or similar things and seeing if that helps you prolong the time before you need a deload and get more productive training, operating and feeling better throughout the days too.

The paradox for me is: in the gym I can perform, probably due to decades of systemic and mental adaptation. The CNS being cooked shows up in getting 8–9 hours of sleep and dragging all morning until I get in the gym. Then I get to work with the weights and all systems are online, lights green across the board. I can still progress, even getting stronger lately, but that of course is more CNS load.

As soon as I finish and start walking to the train station, mind and body start crashing as the adrenaline fades. All I want to do is sleep. So there aren't any performance signals; it's all outside the gym when the parasympathetic clashes with the sympathetic.

What I will do is widen the split, less time in the gym per session, lengthen rest intervals (I often go again in 30 seconds), and only one all-out failure set per body part.

I do deload occasionally, but probably not enough for my age. My efforts in the gym exceed my ability to recover, at least CNS-wise. Being retired and free from stress, I know there isn't any other load I can pare down—it's all overreach.

 

[alfresco]

The paradox for me is: in the gym I can perform, probably due to decades of systemic and mental adaptation. The CNS being cooked shows up in getting 8–9 hours of sleep and dragging all morning until I get in the gym. Then I get to work with the weights and all systems are online, lights green across the board. I can still progress, even getting stronger lately, but that of course is more CNS load.

As soon as I finish and start walking to the train station, mind and body start crashing as the adrenaline fades. All I want to do is sleep. So there aren't any performance signals; it's all outside the gym when the parasympathetic clashes with the sympathetic.

What I will do is widen the split, less time in the gym per session, lengthen rest intervals (I often go again in 30 seconds), and only one all-out failure set per body part.

I do deload occasionally, but probably not enough for my age. My efforts in the gym exceed my ability to recover, at least CNS-wise. Being retired and free from stress, I know there isn't any other load I can pare down—it's all overreach.

Do you wear a sleep monitor?

 

[hawkmoon]

Do you wear a sleep monitor?

I do and have a CPAP. Quality and length are good as best I can measure. It's improved since the CPAP.

 

[cage99]

Personally, I cannot recover enough anymore to workout 5 days or more. My sweet spot is 3-4 days a week. Currently using PPL format.

I was doing 5 days for the longest time with a lot of volume. But it really started to make me feel like total ass. Just getting older is all.

Try the new routine for a few months and record your progress. Then make your decision to keep it or alter it.

On a side note, the Whoop strap does a great job tracking your body’s recovery. If you don’t have one it may be worth the investment.

Cage

 

[Mountolympus]

I use to do 3 full body a week, some week add one extra day at sunday.

 

[qbkilla]

Kinda depends on the individual..I train 7 days a week and just take days off as needed…in the past when I try to do what you are talking about I get slower and weaker.

I have learned to auto regulate the volume, weight, and intensity…but purposely training less days has never worked for me.

Again, purely individual..myself and others here with similar backgrounds have likely developed a workload where it’s the only way we respond.

How long is each session?

 

[fisther69]

How long is each session?

So, I usually run or walk for about 45 minutes immediately upon waking.

Then I will eat breakfast and lift for an hour to an hour and a half.

Then I’ll usually swim or go on a cool down walk until I don’t want to..not really a timed thing..I just hate ending workout with something super intense..just cool it down a little first

 

[Seeyouspacecowboy]

Rest times during training helped me a lot. Its another way of upping intensity without adding weight.
By that I mean short rests, after I was doing my routine faster I ended upping the weight quicker compared to before and assisted my progressive overload goals.

 

[MackCoach]

I've been a person that is trains either 6 days on 1 day off, or 3 days on 1 day off due to just enjoying training. I feel like it might be hindering the growth I could be having since we obviously grow outside the gym. I now want to orient my training to what will actually give me optimal results and allow me to progress at the fastest rate in hypertrophy compared to just what I enjoy. Switching to something like this will probably make me look forward to the next session even more.

Thinking of starting an every other day programme to allow full recovery and optimal growth.

Thinking of something like:
Back, Triceps
Rest
Chest, biceps
Rest
Legs, shoulders
Rest
Repeat

Does anyone have experince with EOD training? Or had gone from high frequency to lower frequency like this and feel that it has benefited their gains?

I'm also not too sure on how much volume/working sets/sets to failure per session per muscle would be a good place to start with with this frequency of training, since my old split ended up having a lot of volume per week and would be hard and likely not optimal to cram into one session. So any recommendations here would be appreciated here.


Thanks for anyone's input. Goal is to pack on mass.

Too much time in between workouts

You are recovering, growing, then shrinking back

The key is to recover, grow, then tear down again before the atrophy

 

[Shogun]

I like 4xweek the best, respond best to it i dont get sick and dont need deloads every few months as when training 5xweek

 

[parksisme]

I like 4xweek in a PPL routine, keeps me flexible with regular life stuff. Also at this age, more than 4 days a week I am fade out.

 

[iwantmass]

The paradox for me is: in the gym I can perform, probably due to decades of systemic and mental adaptation. The CNS being cooked shows up in getting 8–9 hours of sleep and dragging all morning until I get in the gym. Then I get to work with the weights and all systems are online, lights green across the board. I can still progress, even getting stronger lately, but that of course is more CNS load.

As soon as I finish and start walking to the train station, mind and body start crashing as the adrenaline fades. All I want to do is sleep. So there aren't any performance signals; it's all outside the gym when the parasympathetic clashes with the sympathetic.

What I will do is widen the split, less time in the gym per session, lengthen rest intervals (I often go again in 30 seconds), and only one all-out failure set per body part.

I do deload occasionally, but probably not enough for my age. My efforts in the gym exceed my ability to recover, at least CNS-wise. Being retired and free from stress, I know there isn't any other load I can pare down—it's all overreach.

I don't want to turn this into an advocacy for the new breed of mitochondrial optimization peptides, but that is one area I think we will see improve in the future. I think we can expect a correlation between healthy mitochondria and cns fatigue. Which, at least in my mind, should allow more training frequency/volume. What is the best way to leverage this? No clue. But I like where I think it's headed

 

[hawkmoon]

I don't want to turn this into an advocacy for the new breed of mitochondrial optimization peptides, but that is one area I think we will see improve in the future. I think we can expect a correlation between healthy mitochondria and cns fatigue. Which, at least in my mind, should allow more training frequency/volume. What is the best way to leverage this? No clue. But I like where I think it's headed

I am personally wary of this space (understanding you are not saying this to promote peptides).

Testing for sub-optimal mitochondria is far from easy. Essentially it requires living tissue samples. VO2 max is probably a good proxy.
IMHO, the mitochondrial peptides that are becoming popular are like throwing darts in the dark. No one (I know of) is measuring pre- and post-peptide mitochondrial respiration or PCr recovery.

I'd rather focus on what I'm doing wrong than try to mask it with peptides. I'm sure many others will feel differently, but this is my view and what I'd advise for a client.