Estradiol management: ratio or range update

[TrenE]

Hello,

I have read through all the threads on the subject, but have not received a conclusive answer.

Therefore, I wanted to ask for new insights.

Regarding health, is it better to pay attention to the estradiol level that it is in reference (sensitive oestradtiol tests) or should you pay attention to a certain ratio?

Practical example: with 500mg of testosterone per week, should you push your estradiol level to a reference level of 40pg/ml or is an estradiol level of 90pg/ml beneficial, provided you don't have any symptoms (e.g. gynacomastia)?

How does it look in terms of general health, i.e. prostate problems (BPH) and others due to too high estradiol levels outside the reference although testosterone is increased by exogenous supply?

Here are some controversial views:
@Type-IIx

I’ll explain for anyone interested in my reasoning: I think the guiding principle should be to manage E2 levels (i.e., within the Normal reference range) due to the strong negative impacts of elevated E2 on:

- gynecomastia
- water retention
-- sexual function, and
--- the degree of HPG axis suppression (which is relevant if you’re not BnCing).

@Kaladryn

There is NO WAY to bring estradiol levels into the "normal" range on a lot of test, nor would you want to, as you would have extreme symptoms of low E if you could get your estradiol that low. E and T compete, the ratio of the two is important.

Thank you.

 

[jaxino]

I would ask that to @luki7788

 

[luki7788]

I have no idea - there is no research on this either. Only from my own experience I can say that I feel bad and look bad on E2 above the reference standard (water retention is particularly troublesome)

 

[buck]

I think it is safe to say that there is no proof as to what is the best, safest or healthiest range to be in when doing amounts that take well over the top of the normal range. anyone that is smart will be able to make a case for what he believes. But when looking ou will be able to find other evidence that shows something different. But in the grand scheme is someone isn't feeling good when they are using a drug then they probably are not doing good.

 

[nothuman]

I go back and forth on this topic. I watch one YouTube video and think AI's are important and then watch another showing they're dangerous and a cause of why bodybuilders die.

I am currently leaning towards the later. I don't take one regardless of the fact I have a high estradiol level. The presentations from Dr. Rouzier and Prof Scott Howell were VERY convincing to make me not take one.

Who knows, maybe next week I'll hear something else that will get me back on one.

 

[Swifto]

There is evidence estrogen is carcinogenic in humans.

"More recent evidence supports a dual role of estrogen in carcinogenesis as a hormone stimulating cell proliferation and as a procarcinogen inducing genetic damage"

Source: https://academic.oup.com/edrv/article/21/1/40/2423794

So why do you want to run it out of the park when taking aromatizable AAS? At least control it when on heavy doses that may push it up.

What benefit is there to having massive estrogen levels on exogenous testosterone?

 

[rAJJIN]

Seems the question then maybe is it better to let it run high with no added drugs to control it. …. Or is it better to add more drugs (and possible side effects) to keep it in range?

What are the dangers of each , and the benefits of each.

 

[Swifto]

Let's not forget the effects of estrogen control from other commonly used AAS such as, DHT derived androgens and more recently EQ.

Sure, people run Test + Nandrolone, but AAS like Primo and EQ have gained more popularity recently and are common in heavier dosed stacks using multiple compounds when an anti E may be required.

 

[Reno911]

I don't think people should let it go crazy high but also too low is hard on the CV system.

30-40 is where I feel good and if my Test level is beyond TRT I don't mind letting it go a little higher.

 

[gains4000]

Men are not designed to have high estrogen levels. I can handle high estrogen , doesn’t mean it doesn’t have negative health complications!

Estrogen management is the first thing every steroid user needs to learn.

 

[TrenE]

Thank you for the numerous responses, evidence and opinions.

As practical takeaway I summarize to keep estradiol basically in the normal reference.

Let's not forget the effects of estrogen control from other commonly used AAS such as, DHT derived androgens and more recently EQ.

A specific question regarding masteron. Since masteron does not directly lower estradiol levels like primo, as it acts on the receptor and thus estradiol remains elevated: Am I correct in assuming that estradiol should also be kept in reference in this case?

I do not have a concrete idea of what effect estradiol "floating around" has in the body, if it cannot fully develop its effect at the receptor due to the masteron.

 

[SouthernMuscle]

Thank you for the numerous responses, evidence and opinions.

As practical takeaway I summarize to keep estradiol basically in the normal reference.


A specific question regarding masteron. Since masteron does not directly lower estradiol levels like primo, as it acts on the receptor and thus estradiol remains elevated: Am I correct in assuming that estradiol should also be kept in reference in this case?

I do not have a concrete idea of what effect estradiol "floating around" has in the body, if it cannot fully develop its effect at the receptor due to the masteron.

just because it interacts w the receptor doesn’t mean that its an irreversible bind, or that the binding strength is that high. I’m no scientist but it’s most likely competitive inhibition and not necessarily in all tissues.
or maybe just magic
i’m sure someone here would love to explain it

 

[gains4000]

Thank you for the numerous responses, evidence and opinions.

As practical takeaway I summarize to keep estradiol basically in the normal reference.


A specific question regarding masteron. Since masteron does not directly lower estradiol levels like primo, as it acts on the receptor and thus estradiol remains elevated: Am I correct in assuming that estradiol should also be kept in reference in this case?

I do not have a concrete idea of what effect estradiol "floating around" has in the body, if it cannot fully develop its effect at the receptor due to the masteron.

I don’t take AI on masteron. Masteron reduces estrogen dominance. DHT is effective at treating Gyno while Arimidex is not.

Antiestrogenic action of dihydrotestosterone in mouse breast. Competition with estradiol for binding to the estrogen receptor - PubMed

Feminization in men occurs when the effective ratio of androgen to estrogen is lowered. Since sufficient estrogen is produced in normal men to induce breast enlargement in the absence of adequate amounts of circulating androgens, it has been generally assumed that androgens exert an...

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

 

[TrenE]

That masteron is comparable to DHT seems to be apparently viewed controversially.

I hear ya, there's a widespread misconception that Mast as a "DHT derivative" is androgenic. Thing is, Test actually metabolizes to "DHT" (5alpha-DHT) in prostate tissue via 5alpha-reductase. Mast is a 5alpha-androstan-3-one, a member of a class of compounds specifically designed for low androgenicity and relatively high anabolism. OP specificallly asked, what's safer, 100mg * 2 of test or 100mg of test + 100mg of mast. Given that Test actually 5alpha-reduces in prostate to 5alpha-DHT, a HIGHLY androgenic compound, the answer is 100mg of test + 100mg of mast.

But, and I think this is more relevant, masteron does not lower estradiol levels and I have not yet found an answer to what happens to the high estradiol floating around, even if masteron reduces estradiol dominance at receptor level.

 

[gains4000]

That masteron is comparable to DHT seems to be apparently viewed controversially.


But, and I think this is more relevant, masteron does not lower estradiol levels and I have not yet found an answer to what happens to the high estradiol floating around, even if masteron reduces estradiol dominance at receptor level.

I should have specified , You should run Aromasin on Test + Masteron to get in range E2. I don’t take AI on Masteron with Trest Ace cause AI doesn’t block methyl estrogen created in the liver.

It’s harder to “Feel” high estrogen on masteron because it “masks” the symptoms of high estrogen. So if you’re worried about having too much estrogen in your blood on Masteron testosterone take Aromatase inhibitors.

 

[Swifto]

I don’t take AI on masteron. Masteron reduces estrogen dominance. DHT is effective at treating Gyno while Arimidex is not.

Antiestrogenic action of dihydrotestosterone in mouse breast. Competition with estradiol for binding to the estrogen receptor - PubMed

Feminization in men occurs when the effective ratio of androgen to estrogen is lowered. Since sufficient estrogen is produced in normal men to induce breast enlargement in the absence of adequate amounts of circulating androgens, it has been generally assumed that androgens exert an...

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Arimidex is not effective in treating gynecomastia?

Is that what you said?

You dont think something that lowers estrogen in males is an effective gynecomastia treatment or prevention for eugondal males using exogenous testosterone?

 

[mexbeast]

Hello,

I have read through all the threads on the subject, but have not received a conclusive answer.

Therefore, I wanted to ask for new insights.

Regarding health, is it better to pay attention to the estradiol level that it is in reference (sensitive oestradtiol tests) or should you pay attention to a certain ratio?

Practical example: with 500mg of testosterone per week, should you push your estradiol level to a reference level of 40pg/ml or is an estradiol level of 90pg/ml beneficial, provided you don't have any symptoms (e.g. gynacomastia)?

How does it look in terms of general health, i.e. prostate problems (BPH) and others due to too high estradiol levels outside the reference although testosterone is increased by exogenous supply?

Here are some controversial views:
@Type-IIx

@Kaladryn

Thank you.

So 40 would be normal for 250 test right? So 80 would be ideal for 500 right? The reatio is what's important!

 

[gains4000]

Arimidex is not effective in treating gynecomastia?

Is that what you said?

You dont think something that lowers estrogen in males is an effective gynecomastia treatment or prevention for eugondal males using exogenous testosterone?

Arimidex is not quite effective at treating Gyno, Tamoxifen is. Arimidex can prevent Gyno from developing by controlling excessive estrogen production, but once you start getting Gyno it’s not going to be as effective as Tamoxifen.

Treatment with anastrozole daily for 6 months, however, did not result in a significant improvement compared with placebo [67]. This is in accordance with the data summarized in a recent review [68], describing similar responses to placebo, tamoxifen and anastrozole in a number of observational studies. Anastrozole was also studied in a group of prostate cancer patients treated with bicalutamide, an androgen antagonist. A dose of 1 mg daily appeared to be mildly effective against the appearance of gynecomastia. Tamoxifen was much more effective, however, in the prevention of gynecomastia in these men [69, 70]. Due to these disappointing results, aromatase inhibitors are not recommended as a first-line treatment for gynecomastia in men.

 

[phoenix2]

I should have specified , You should run Aromasin on Test + Masteron to get in range E2. I don’t take AI on Masteron with Trest Ace cause AI doesn’t block methyl estrogen created in the liver.

It’s harder to “Feel” high estrogen on masteron because it “masks” the symptoms of high estrogen. So if you’re worried about having too much estrogen in your blood on Masteron testosterone take Aromatase inhibitors.

AIs block aromatase. Every estrogen (methyl or not) is created by aromatase from an aromatizable androgen (in the liver, in the far tissue, in the muscle, etc) and so is the methyl estradiol made from trest. So you can block aromatization of trest with an AI. Reguard masteron, it doesn't lower e2 levels, but like you said, it "masks" some estrogen related sides (especially water retention), but it doesn't mean that you can stay with supraphysological levels of estradiol and feel good. It varies from a person to other. Personally, i need AIs on test and masteron, or i get estrogens bad effects even if some of them are well "masked". For boldenone and maybe primo it's a different story. They seem to compete for aromatase enzyme (like Als), so they can effectively LOWER estradiol levels.

 

[360]

Both times I ran Test + NPP I got high Estrogen symptoms one week after stopping the NPP and continuing the Test. The symptoms were very severe (insomnia, anxiety, panic attacks, and phobias). Both cycles were over 16 weeks and I kept my doses the same throughout the cycles (500 Test + 300 NPP). Does anyone here feel that NPP was somehow competing with Estrogen at the Estrogen receptor level or the NPP was competing with Test at the Aromatase enzyme level?