estrogen control question

sakguy · Jul 16, 2009

Macro said:
read the ingredients???? designed the delivery platform as well as formulated the actives ratio.

DHEA is the ADJUNCT active ingredient in AIFM

ATD is the primary active. Its a potent aromatase inhibitor, just poorly orally bioavailable and with a short half life. TD addresses both these issues the first via a minimum of 10 to 40 fold better uptake and the second due to TD "lag" (time for intire dose to cross the dermal barrier).

Exemestane is essentially a 6-methylated ATD. Though exemestane is an excellent choice.

With that in mind, would ATD also be a suicidal inhibitor like exemestane and formestane?

Macro · Jul 16, 2009

sakguy said:
With that in mind, would ATD also be a suicidal inhibitor like exemestane and formestane?

yes. but neither it nor formestane have good oral bioavailability (0-3%, with 3 percent being perfect storm kind of uptake-- basically dont reccomend either orally) and both have very short half lives, which is why topical delivery (aka Transdermal delivery) it the preferred method of admin since (properly formulated) it delivers dose over extended period and delivers a significant amount. eg. androgel is around 10% (which is poor but at least consistent)

Newman · Jul 16, 2009

Macro said:
read the ingredients???? designed the delivery platform as well as formulated the actives ratio.

DHEA is the ADJUNCT active ingredient in AIFM

ATD is the primary active. Its a potent aromatase inhibitor, just poorly orally bioavailable and with a short half life. TD addresses both these issues the first via a minimum of 10 to 40 fold better uptake and the second due to TD "lag" (time for intire dose to cross the dermal barrier).

Exemestane is essentially a 6-methylated ATD. Though exemestane is an excellent choice.

Well, that's what I get for arguing from memory! My bad, LOL!

I had completely forgot about the 1-4-6 ATD.

I wonder why they add the DHEA?

Think it helps with anything?

In light of what Primate said about DHEA, I'm not 2 sure if AIFM is safe 4 long term use...

** I just went back to the AIFM vendor site & they don't appear to mention the amount of active ingredients per ml & the number of ml dispensed per pump, so it's sorta hard to estimate how many mg of ATD & DHEA a bro would be absorbing with their recomended 1-3 pumps twice per day.**

Macro · Jul 17, 2009

Newman said:
Well, that's what I get for arguing from memory! My bad, LOL!

I had completely forgot about the 1-4-6 ATD.

I wonder why they add the DHEA?

Think it helps with anything?

In light of what Primate said about DHEA, I'm not 2 sure if AIFM is safe 4 long term use...

** I just went back to the AIFM vendor site & they don't appear to mention the amount of active ingredients per ml & the number of ml dispensed per pump, so it's sorta hard to estimate how many mg of ATD & DHEA a bro would be absorbing with their recomended 1-3 pumps twice per day.**

and knowing that would?????

seriously, think about that... and then if you still wonder.... will explain why its irrellevant

iprimate · Jul 17, 2009

Macro said:
exemestane

AIFM is an OTC option

In the USA.

Some jurisdictions prosecute DHEA importation as aggressively as AAS importation but (ironically) permit AIs. In these cases you'd best just go with Exemestane.

shoestring · Jul 17, 2009

Last I heard was atd was also an anti androgen. Macro is there any truth to this?? Also I think the whole "poor oral bioavailability" may have been over stated a bit. Most recommend 25mg-75mg/day, and regardless of poor oral bioavailability this seems to be plenty to get the job done for most people.

Macro · Jul 17, 2009

shoestring said:
Last I heard was atd was also an anti angrogen. Macro is there any truth to this?? Also I think the whole "poor oral bioavailability" may have been over stated a bit. Most recommend 25mg-75mg/day, and regardless of poor oral bioavailability this seems to be plenty to get the job done for most people.

not really. it is potent and it does suppress estrogen, but such high doses (if there is decent uptake--eg 1-3%-- is very short term and actually quite disruptive-- basically short term E deprivation).

which is why people tend to get side effects of E deprivation, without much real benefit when taking oral ATD.

shoestring · Jul 18, 2009

So the transdermal is a lower steady release? If that is the case I can see why it might be a better way to go.

Macro · Jul 18, 2009

shoestring said:
So the transdermal is a lower steady release? If that is the case I can see why it might be a better way to go.

yes. Though there is some peaking within first 2-3 hours of application, such is unavoidable and a relative non issue.

Newman · Jul 18, 2009

Macro said:
and knowing that would?????

seriously, think about that... and then if you still wonder.... will explain why its irrellevant

Macro, please understand that I wasn't trying to offend you. If I did, I'm sorry.

Anyway, the reason I would like to know whether long term use DHEA (In AIFM specifically) use is safe is because not everyone does short cycles. Some guys are on permanent TRT & may choose AIFM as their permanent AI.

I think that's a relevant concern. If I'm wrong, then I guess I'm human after all.

Anyway, I read up on DHEA & I now believe that in reasonable doses, it's likely fairly beneficial. Swale says it "backfills" the hormone pathways.

Newman · Jul 18, 2009

Originally posted by Shoestring:

Last I heard was atd was also an anti androgen. Macro is there any truth to this?? Also I think the whole "poor oral bioavailability" may have been over stated a bit. Most recommend 25mg-75mg/day, and regardless of poor oral bioavailability this seems to be plenty to get the job done for most people.

Macro said:
not really. it is potent and it does suppress estrogen, but such high doses (if there is decent uptake--eg 1-3%-- is very short term and actually quite disruptive-- basically short term E deprivation).

which is why people tend to get side effects of E deprivation, without much real benefit when taking oral ATD.

If ATD isn't a good choice for an AI, then why do you feel that AIFM is a good AI formula?

Did I miss some detail here?

Macro · Jul 18, 2009

Newman said:
Macro, please understand that I wasn't trying to offend you. If I did, I'm sorry.

Anyway, the reason I would like to know whether long term use DHEA (In AIFM specifically) use is safe is because not everyone does short cycles. Some guys are on permanent TRT & may choose AIFM as their permanent AI.

I think that's a relevant concern. If I'm wrong, then I guess I'm human after all.

Anyway, I read up on DHEA & I now believe that in reasonable doses, it's likely fairly beneficial. Swale says it "backfills" the hormone pathways.

dosage is reasonable and specifically designed for TRT/cycle support

Macro · Jul 18, 2009

Newman said:
Originally posted by Shoestring:

Last I heard was atd was also an anti androgen. Macro is there any truth to this?? Also I think the whole "poor oral bioavailability" may have been over stated a bit. Most recommend 25mg-75mg/day, and regardless of poor oral bioavailability this seems to be plenty to get the job done for most people.

If ATD isn't a good choice for an AI, then why do you feel that AIFM is a good AI formula?

Did I miss some detail here?

ATD- is not an anti-androgen. the study, which indicated thus in theory-- based such on erroneous interpretation of data.

ORAL ATD is not a good choice. exemestane is really just a methylated isomer of ATD (methylated at the 6-position so its not liver unfriendly- nor particularly androgenic-- as methylation at the 1 or 17 (or both) would likely make it)