Even JP not going to failure anymore...

[luki7788]

I think James Holingshead is a good example of what a balance looks like in training. I also deeply believe he's found the balance in diet and gear, from what I see and hear.

 

[qbkilla]

I’m sure I’ll ruffle a few feathers with this but oh well - and I will start it by saying I have massive respect for both I’m from the UK Dorian is our hero but following JP is like the survivor bias same as Dorian people latch onto their training methods because they think they lone wolf approached it and beat the genetic elites by “out working them” but fact is they’re both genetic elites and that’s 2 guys how many guys turned pro just doing generic medium to high volume approaches in comparison across the board? 100-1?

So if we just look at what the 99% do then it would make their training philosophies look inferior even though they talk with so much absolute and it makes sense on paper

Also how many times have you heard die hard Dorian followers say when they added more volume in the grew more than ever before?

And I’ve been saying for ages now so many of the JP die hards have been doing and saying the exact same? Hell the ones who were the best competitors from the JP camp didn’t even follow his way of training and the ones that did have now switched methods and are saying they’re having their best ever progress

The JP thing was a cult more than anything speaking specifically here in the UK everyone and their dog wore his clothes and followed his methods and most of them normally through injury or just growing up realised JP is super smart, genetically elite and a business man that’s not to discredit or say he didn’t believe in his methods I’m absolutely sure he does but posting about them indirectly made him millions

Personally I believe pretty much all training methods work BUT if a method leaves you injured then it’s the total opposite of “optimal”

I followed that type of training right up until a few months ago and to parrot everyone else “I’m now making the best progress ever”

The JP way sells on social media (or it did) if you’re 17 have a bit of a following and load up a hack squat with 20 plates and a load of bands and did 3 reps with 20 seconds between each and talk some shit about progressive overload via weight being the most important thing ever whilst looking like you don’t train you were on the pulse of what was trending

The tides changing and with that these social media bodybuilders are changing their methods to follow suit and realising they may of been wrong with their absolute statements about their training being the best way ever and anything else just trash and conveniently now forgetting they ever said it

Great post! Here is a video, I like this guy, hes very nerdy into the science but doesnt follow it like religion. Some of my take home points

1. Mike handles himself well it seems like his bias against low volume and failure is based on his personal training experience vs science. Which is fine in my book.

2. Helms is a guy who has always claimed his upper body needs and responds to only high volume. He talks about "pacing " which is important.

3. Menno is kind of a dipshit, this guy is the extreme high volume hit everything 5x a week no rest days...and look at him. Im more interested in hearing Mike and Helms than him.

But back to the pacing. I honestly don't see why high volume guys need to even think in terms of rir. If someone is doing 20 sets a week for chest...say 10 on mon..10 on Thursday...they don't even need to track rir to avoid failure...simply by doing 10 sets for chest in a push, 10 for delts, 10 for tris....30 sets...they aren't going to be able to generate enough intensity mentally and physically to take 30 sets to true failure anyway...so pacing or autoregulation will manage fatigue on its own...vs aiming for a certain rir.

 

[Cerberus777]

What is rir? Is it really 1 left before failure. And what is failure? Before form is lost. Momentary failure. Take 2 breaths and get one more? There's a lot of things thrown around like gospel but just do more than last time.

 

[kadafi2]

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I think he wants to get in the shape of his life.

 

[TheOtherOne55]

From what I know, and I do the same, JP (at least used to) do it something like this - which can also be seen in his training videos.
I haven't followed his most recent changes, so I could be wrong.

• 12-15 reps light weight
• 6-8 heavier, getting warm
• 2-4 heavier still, but not inducing fatigue
• 1-2 reps to "touch" the heavy weight and acclimate the body to the working set.
• Often another 1-2 (I do not double up like this myself)
• Working set 6-8 reps (I do 10-12 for safety)

Thats the "method" he coached me by back in 2015/2016.

This is his method a la 4-5 years ago. He, himself, doesnt train like this anymore. He doesnt do to the top set back off set anymore.
So referring to @megroo 's post, his 1 RIR is vaaastly different than anyone elses.

I think this thread is mostly misinformed because A. they dont follow or pay for Jordan's log and B. are just kinda regurgitating info of his from 2020. Jordan does MORE VOLUME and a lower rep range now. Is that a change from his methodology from 5 years or so back? Yes, big time. He was a 2 set, move on type guy. BUT AGAIN, this is how HE trains. He is asked all the time if he would program this for any other person and he constantly replies NO, its just for him. We all know this...Jordan does specifically for him (doses, lifts, intensity, etc). I get it, we are trying to take what he does and turn it into a possible blueprint, but it doesnt work that way.

 

[NorwegianMuscle]

This exactly in my book . Bboy once said something on here that stuck with me , he trains until " form failure " makes the most sense to me

That's how I train. Good way to put it and the safest. I train until "form failure" so I don't have injuries and I get the most out of my reps. Not trying to throw weights around or flop around like a fish on the bench. I've already did it. Partial pec tear, partial collar bone seperation, etc...

 

[Simon90]

That's how I train. Good way to put it and the safest. I train until "form failure" so I don't have injuries and I get the most out of my reps. Not trying to throw weights around or flop around like a fish on the bench. I've already did it. Partial pec tear, partial collar bone seperation, etc...

Been there and done that myself too. Also gone to training til ‘form failure’ then using intensifiers. It’s nice to crawl out of the gym after leg day with actually sore blown up quads and not just sore spine, knees, hips bones

 

[MajinBoo]

This is his method a la 4-5 years ago. He, himself, doesnt train like this anymore. He doesnt do to the top set back off set anymore.
So referring to @megroo 's post, his 1 RIR is vaaastly different than anyone elses.

I think this thread is mostly misinformed because A. they dont follow or pay for Jordan's log and B. are just kinda regurgitating info of his from 2020. Jordan does MORE VOLUME and a lower rep range now. Is that a change from his methodology from 5 years or so back? Yes, big time. He was a 2 set, move on type guy. BUT AGAIN, this is how HE trains. He is asked all the time if he would program this for any other person and he constantly replies NO, its just for him. We all know this...Jordan does specifically for him (doses, lifts, intensity, etc). I get it, we are trying to take what he does and turn it into a possible blueprint, but it doesnt work that way.

This!!!

When I read the comments I immediately understand that nobody (or almost) really knows what he does and what he means by leaving 1rir

JP does not do more than 6 reps in any movement. Many sets are triples. Yes, 3 reps to failure as a working set - not feeder set lol
He leaves 1 rir before last set which is still taken to failure. In addition, the intensity and power he needs to put on his first rep is the 1 rir of 90% of the people. The load he is moving is completely absurd.
Honestly, the way he trains now is even more taxing and "dangerous" than before. And in my opinion, less efective. His training looks like pure strength training - not hipertrophy.

 

[hawkmoon]

This is his method a la 4-5 years ago. He, himself, doesnt train like this anymore. He doesnt do to the top set back off set anymore.
So referring to @megroo 's post, his 1 RIR is vaaastly different than anyone elses.

I think this thread is mostly misinformed because A. they dont follow or pay for Jordan's log and B. are just kinda regurgitating info of his from 2020. Jordan does MORE VOLUME and a lower rep range now. Is that a change from his methodology from 5 years or so back? Yes, big time. He was a 2 set, move on type guy. BUT AGAIN, this is how HE trains. He is asked all the time if he would program this for any other person and he constantly replies NO, its just for him. We all know this...Jordan does specifically for him (doses, lifts, intensity, etc). I get it, we are trying to take what he does and turn it into a possible blueprint, but it doesnt work that way.

Thanks for sharing this. This is why I love PM, I'm always happy to be corected and learn more.

For clarity going forward, I much prefer incorporating some of JP's older ideas into my structure, which is also mixed with DC and @homonunculus methodologies.

 

[Cerberus777]

Thanks for sharing this. This is why I love PM, I'm always happy to be corected and learn more.

For clarity going forward, I much prefer incorporating some of JP's older ideas into my structure, which is also mixed with DC and @homonunculus methodologies.

I really like the heavy set , back off set on things like deads and squats.

 

[M@NU]

This!!!

When I read the comments I immediately understand that nobody (or almost) really knows what he does and what he means by leaving 1rir

JP does not do more than 6 reps in any movement. Many sets are triples. Yes, 3 reps to failure as a working set - not feeder set lol
He leaves 1 rir before last set which is still taken to failure. In addition, the intensity and power he needs to put on his first rep is the 1 rir of 90% of the people. The load he is moving is completely absurd.
Honestly, the way he trains now is even more taxing and "dangerous" than before. And in my opinion, less efective. His training looks like pure strength training - not hipertrophy.

to be honest, this is how i would train if joints and ligaments allowed to.
maybe not the 1-3 reps sets but my rep range would be 5-7 with few sets 8-12 on isolation stuff
this is LESS taxing on the body opposed to 10-15 reps, even if many think this is wrong.
For legs, my presses are always 12-20 reps because my knees cant handle lower rep ranges. But let me tell you:
a leg press set to 15 leaves you way more exhausted than a set to 6. Same for all other movements.

 

[specter]

Thanks for sharing this. This is why I love PM, I'm always happy to be corected and learn more.

For clarity going forward, I much prefer incorporating some of JP's older ideas into my structure, which is also mixed with DC and @homonunculus methodologies.

I loved the method he coached me by, it was a great way to train for me and loved hammering the body like that, but down the road it deff would lead to injuries.

 

[massephase]

to be honest, this is how i would train if joints and ligaments allowed to.
maybe not the 1-3 reps sets but my rep range would be 5-7 with few sets 8-12 on isolation stuff
this is LESS taxing on the body opposed to 10-15 reps, even if many think this is wrong.
For legs, my presses are always 12-20 reps because my knees cant handle lower rep ranges. But let me tell you:
a leg press set to 15 leaves you way more exhausted than a set to 6. Same for all other movements.

Yup as you say, the trade off is the passive structures.
I am unfortunately not very robust so I do the same on leg presses lol
A high rep set first (~15) and then the heavy set (~8) is what works for me.

 

[M@NU]

Yup as you say, the trade off is the passive structures.
I am unfortunately not very robust so I do the same on leg presses lol
A high rep set first (~15) and then the heavy set (~8) is what works for me.

exactly.
same for me^^ i have tiny joints and didnt do any sports until i was 21, i assume this also plays a role how robust your ligaments/tendons get.

this could also be a viable option and similar to what i do. I assume you dont have to load too much more weight on it because the first set to failure (or close) already "steals" you some strength for the second set?
for example my quad workout yesterday was leg extension, Squat press and Schnell Car legpress (a quad dominant hip press)
for leg extension i do 4 warmup sets, then 1 working set with 2 reps in reserve, then 1 working set to failure (same weight)
for squat press i do 3 warmup sets and then just one working set to failure
for the Quad dominant legpress i do 1 feeder, then yesterday for example 110kg x 16 with 1-2 rep in reserve and then 125kg x 14 to failure

this is enough for my quads to be completely smashed but my knees are also sore. The next quad workout would be on monday, so 3 rest days in between

 

[MajinBoo]

to be honest, this is how i would train if joints and ligaments allowed to.
maybe not the 1-3 reps sets but my rep range would be 5-7 with few sets 8-12 on isolation stuff
this is LESS taxing on the body opposed to 10-15 reps, even if many think this is wrong.
For legs, my presses are always 12-20 reps because my knees cant handle lower rep ranges. But let me tell you:
a leg press set to 15 leaves you way more exhausted than a set to 6. Same for all other movements.

I agree.. most of my training is 6-10reps on coumpounds and 8-12 on isolation.. but triples is not the most efficient way of building muscle. In JP case, where what he does not need is strength but to sculpt his physique, this style of training is the worst he can do.
Again this is my opinion and others can have a different one.

 

[xpoc]

What is rir? Is it really 1 left before failure. And what is failure? Before form is lost. Momentary failure. Take 2 breaths and get one more? There's a lot of things thrown around like gospel but just do more than last time.

Best I have heard it described as "task failure." Meaning unable to complete another rep with the SAME form. So, if you have to adjust your body position to maximize leverage, if you have to manipulate the eccentric speed or need to employ momentum to complete the rep, you have reached task failure.

 

[Brocksamson2.0]

JP used to enjoy training until he popped muscle fibers. I always felt that was too much.
There is training to failure and there is training to destroy yourself.

I almost always go to failure in some movement in each major muscle group, usually a single compound movement.
That said, my failure is performed as clean as possible. I think if you fail with perfect form you can avoid injuries.
My only injuries have been from overextension (pec tear on flyes) and machine accident (quads).

train harder or train smarter... why not both?

 

[A50#]

What failure actually means is very subjective. For myself I don't have a training partner so failure for me is when I can't do another rep without crushing myself to death. I couldn't imagine leaving a few reps in the tank and stopping short, just never trained like that.

 

[qbkilla]

What failure actually means is very subjective. For myself I don't have a training partner so failure for me is when I can't do another rep without crushing myself to death. I couldn't imagine leaving a few reps in the tank and stopping short, just never trained like that.

Agree. Like on a belt squat..sure you cant go to true failure...cant imagine how you would get out of the bottom...but you can still aim to progress in reps or weight vs last time for a very long time. Me saying "hmmm, I think i could have gotten 2 more before being crushed, imma call that 2 rir "adds nothing of value to my training . I just log the weight and reps and aim to beat it, simple as that.

 

[Cerberus777]

Agree. Like on a belt squat..sure you cant go to true failure...cant imagine how you would get out of the bottom...but you can still aim to progress in reps or weight vs last time for a very long time. Me saying "hmmm, I think i could have gotten 2 more before being crushed, imma call that 2 rir "adds nothing of value to my training . I just log the weight and reps and aim to beat it, simple as that.

Ill still take a few breaths and contemplate it. If need be on belt squats I can pull myself out of the hole.