excessive use of insulin

[heavyhitter]

While a properly fed BB will undoubtedly have enough glycogen to perform a training session that does not mean one cannot train harder and improve results by topping off with intra nutrition. Doable and optimal are not the same.

Plus bonus.....you can force the body to be in a super glycogenated state by using intra carbs and insulin to shuttle it to the muscles during the workout. Kind of like how lots of glycerin can allow you to be more hydrated than your body would normally allow you to be

 

[Muay Thai]

While a properly fed BB will undoubtedly have enough glycogen to perform a training session that does not mean one cannot train harder and improve results by topping off with intra nutrition. Doable and optimal are not the same.

nailed it

 

[musha03]

Unfortunately....most guys I know don't like going to see a MD. They usually tell us thing we don't like to hear.

I hear ya on that note. After reading many doctors books (15) ,,these docs dont practice mainstream medicine anymore because they were in it and dont like how things are done. They had to go out of the system so they could practice on their own and do what they want and not let a system or insurance dictate what they can and cannot do. Unfortunately ,mainstream medicine is taught by pharmaceutical instructors to push a biased type of practice.... cut ,poison and burn. I can tell u how many stories i have followed where people could not be diagnosed properly using mainstream medicine , going from one doc to another to another......Some of these people i mentioned became their own health practitioners and cured themselves because the system couldnt. They are too busy following a system that brings in trillions of dollars from drugs and surgery. What im finding is the best bet is to find a natural doctor ,or functional doctor (who were medical doctors with extra training) or osteopaths.....chicropractor but be preparfed to pay out of pocket for that. The condition that i thought i had ( candida) medical doctors dont even think this condition exists. When money takes over a system, like the rockerfellars did a long time ago, they monopolize their ways and try and shut down other forms of medicine. So much for the free market. This is why i dont have much trust in the medical doctors most of the time. They are good at emergency services and xrays.... Their system is the 3rd leading cause of dealth in the USA. This is right in one of my docs book, dr tennant from texas.

 

[BigNJ]

While a properly fed BB will undoubtedly have enough glycogen to perform a training session that does not mean one cannot train harder and improve results by topping off with intra nutrition. Doable and optimal are not the same.

Sure, however assuming that the person is consuming enough carbs during the day, not to mention some use Insulin throughout the day, keeping in mind that glycogen supercompensation only happens at rest with enough carbs say 10g/kg and sufficient calories . Now why not take that insulin shot 2 to 3 hours before you train with enough protein and carbs? Surely consuming all those carbs daily before and after working out will keep glycogen stores topped off. Besides, glycogen synthase works best when muscle glycogen stores dip keeping Glut4 ready for glycogen absorption. Muscle cells are most receptive to carb and amino acid intake after exercise. Also to consider, while muscle glycogen is dipping during exercise, muscle adipose tissue will come into play.

I hope people are not taking my posts as combative or in negative view, I think we can all learn from one another. I can see why endurance athletes such as runners might need glycogen during their exercise, however bodybuilders who train say an hour or so providing they are consuming enough carbs during the day won't need that "Instant" glycogen replenishing during this 1 hour of training. After training is where the magic begins, hit that humalog and aminos (protein) every 3 hours and glycogen supercompensation and protein synthesis will be maximized.

Now some might say well what about ATP? sure, you can hit the carbs during workout to increase ATP and sustain your energy, but again, we are not working out for hours on end.

In short, if you are eating enough carbs approximately 10g/kg, eating enough calories AND using insulin multiple times a day, surely you will have enough glycogen to carry you through that 1 or so hours of training.

What would be more viable?

A- Doing an insulin shot 2 to 3 hours before your training session with Protein and Carbs and then immediately after or?
B- Doing the Insulin shot immediately before the workout and try to cover with carbs?

I guarantee you your ATP will be fine if you dont' do the shot immediately before and you will not be speeding filling up the glycogen muscle stores but that much. It's only an hour or so not running a marathon.

 

[musha03]

I doubt all your issues are due to insulin usage... especially 10iu humalog 2-3 per week. How is your diet? Bodyfat? Do you have any allergies? Have you done a food diary eliminating problem foods? AAS? Doses? Any painkillers or other drugs? Stress? Carb choices when using insulin? Carbs during the rest of the day? Pounding certain carbs as a result of using insulin is likely going to cause more issues than the insulin itself if you have gut issues.

Yes ,i know i have other issues and im learning lots as i go. My diet is pretty awesome for quite a while. Yea i could have food allergies,trying to figure that out . MY doses of aas are minimal but my stress was high for a while. Im learning lots about the gut and stress can really mess up the gut microbiome. i def should have take a break from the slin for a while.Its like push ,push push and many of us want to gain but we have to know when to stop and back off if the bodybuilding experience is going down hill. No pain killers or other drugs. i think i have to back off a bit from the training ,concentrate on body and mind healing. I have been drinking lots of ozone water right in the morning with my t3/t4 dose . I really think im on the upswing of getting better..thanks for reading.

 

[heavyhitter]

Sure, however assuming that the person is consuming enough carbs during the day, not to mention some use Insulin throughout the day, keeping in mind that glycogen supercompensation only happens at rest with enough carbs say 10g/kg and sufficient calories . Now why not take that insulin shot 2 to 3 hours before you train with enough protein and carbs? Surely consuming all those carbs daily before and after working out will keep glycogen stores topped off. Besides, glycogen synthase works best when muscle glycogen stores dip keeping Glut4 ready for glycogen absorption. Muscle cells are most receptive to carb and amino acid intake after exercise. Also to consider, while muscle glycogen is dipping during exercise, muscle adipose tissue will come into play.

I hope people are not taking my posts as combative or in negative view, I think we can all learn from one another. I can see why endurance athletes such as runners might need glycogen during their exercise, however bodybuilders who train say an hour or so providing they are consuming enough carbs during the day won't need that "Instant" glycogen replenishing during this 1 hour of training. After training is where the magic begins, hit that humalog and aminos (protein) every 3 hours and glycogen supercompensation and protein synthesis will be maximized.

Now some might say well what about ATP? sure, you can hit the carbs during workout to increase ATP and sustain your energy, but again, we are not working out for hours on end.

In short, if you are eating enough carbs approximately 10g/kg, eating enough calories AND using insulin multiple times a day, surely you will have enough glycogen to carry you through that 1 or so hours of training.

What would be more viable?

A- Doing an insulin shot 2 to 3 hours before your training session with Protein and Carbs and then immediately after or?
B- Doing the Insulin shot immediately before the workout and try to cover with carbs?

I guarantee you your ATP will be fine if you dont' do the shot immediately before and you will not be speeding filling up the glycogen muscle stores but that much. It's only an hour or so not running a marathon.

I dunno.....milos has been doing it with his guys for decades and it seems to work. I’ll take practical experience over science almost every time

 

[TheOtherOne55]

What would be more viable?

A- Doing an insulin shot 2 to 3 hours before your training session with Protein and Carbs and then immediately after or?
B- Doing the Insulin shot immediately before the workout and try to cover with carbs?

I guarantee you your ATP will be fine if you dont' do the shot immediately before and you will not be speeding filling up the glycogen muscle stores but that much. It's only an hour or so not running a marathon.

No insulin argument— Yeah you can stay relatively full the entire day eating enough carbs and using your own body's natural processes (working out, GLUT4) to drive the carbs where they need to go.

Insulin argument— the benefit here is supercompensation, especially in the muscle trained.

I'm just not a fan of the old school method of using insulin away from WO windows just for the hell of it. In my head, randomly shooting slin during your first meal meals and you're driving storage anywhere....I don't want storage anywhere, I want storage in the muscle I am training and depleting. I ONLY use slin pre and post. In my head, those OTHER TIMES is where there's a higher chance of spilling over into fat storage. That's at least the way I think of it.

 

[danieltx]

Sure, however assuming that the person is consuming enough carbs during the day, not to mention some use Insulin throughout the day, keeping in mind that glycogen supercompensation only happens at rest with enough carbs say 10g/kg and sufficient calories . Now why not take that insulin shot 2 to 3 hours before you train with enough protein and carbs? Surely consuming all those carbs daily before and after working out will keep glycogen stores topped off. Besides, glycogen synthase works best when muscle glycogen stores dip keeping Glut4 ready for glycogen absorption. Muscle cells are most receptive to carb and amino acid intake after exercise. Also to consider, while muscle glycogen is dipping during exercise, muscle adipose tissue will come into play.

I hope people are not taking my posts as combative or in negative view, I think we can all learn from one another. I can see why endurance athletes such as runners might need glycogen during their exercise, however bodybuilders who train say an hour or so providing they are consuming enough carbs during the day won't need that "Instant" glycogen replenishing during this 1 hour of training. After training is where the magic begins, hit that humalog and aminos (protein) every 3 hours and glycogen supercompensation and protein synthesis will be maximized.

Now some might say well what about ATP? sure, you can hit the carbs during workout to increase ATP and sustain your energy, but again, we are not working out for hours on end.

In short, if you are eating enough carbs approximately 10g/kg, eating enough calories AND using insulin multiple times a day, surely you will have enough glycogen to carry you through that 1 or so hours of training.

What would be more viable?

A- Doing an insulin shot 2 to 3 hours before your training session with Protein and Carbs and then immediately after or?
B- Doing the Insulin shot immediately before the workout and try to cover with carbs?

I guarantee you your ATP will be fine if you dont' do the shot immediately before and you will not be speeding filling up the glycogen muscle stores but that much. It's only an hour or so not running a marathon.

BigNJ, tell us about your personal insulin use. What has your experience been?

 

[Bobik]

I agree. Ive used pre workout insulin for years and have never come close to going hypo or feeling bad. It actually gives me a great boost in the gym.

Yes, the same with me.

 

[VaginaBoob89]

I'm not doubting what you do Luki. I'm looking for an explanation to why doing Insulin pre workout is a good idea. I'm not looking for an argument or a fight

Milos has answered this many times extensively. To summarize his argument: By using a storage hormone like insulin peri-workout, you shuttle nutrients to the muscles literally as they are working and this is a more efficient way of feeding them with the nutrients they need to grow then say, 8 hours before a workout or 12 hours afterword. Would have insulin help you deliver nutrients to the muscle cell be helpful at other times besides the pre-intra-post window? yes definitely, but ceteris paribus not as good as having them right when you're shoving a ton of nutrient rich blood into the muscle while training. Additionally, you get a better pump and more blood volume in the muscle (from insulin during the workout window) which *may* be associated with more hypertrophy (I don't think you'll find an externally valid study on enhanced bodybuilders to empirically verify this, but the antecdotal experience of a couple thousand bodybuilders seems to confirm this).

I'd also personally speculate that having insulin activate right around the workout window would result in storage being preferential in the muscle cell rather than fat cell, but maybe somebody more knowledgeable on this could chime in.

 

[BigNJ]

BigNJ, tell us about your personal insulin use. What has your experience been?

I only use insulin (Humalog) post workout. I have tried using it pre workout and honestly I did not see a point. My workouts are no more than an hour long so super compensation isn't going to happen in that hour. People need to realize that super compensation only happens when the body is at rest.

If I'm doing GH I will use Humalog with it as well. Post workout is when it makes sense to drive aminos and glucose into muscle cells. Also consuming carbs and aminos throughout the day will keep the body in positive nitrogen balance.

Now if my workouts are long, say 2 or 3 hours, sure then I can see the point of consuming carbs during the workout.

 

[BigNJ]

Milos has answered this many times extensively. To summarize his argument: By using a storage hormone like insulin peri-workout, you shuttle nutrients to the muscles literally as they are working and this is a more efficient way of feeding them with the nutrients they need to grow then say, 8 hours before a workout or 12 hours afterword. Would have insulin help you deliver nutrients to the muscle cell be helpful at other times besides the pre-intra-post window? yes definitely, but ceteris paribus not as good as having them right when you're shoving a ton of nutrient rich blood into the muscle while training. Additionally, you get a better pump and more blood volume in the muscle (from insulin during the workout window) which *may* be associated with more hypertrophy (I don't think you'll find an externally valid study on enhanced bodybuilders to empirically verify this, but the antecdotal experience of a couple thousand bodybuilders seems to confirm this).

I'd also personally speculate that having insulin activate right around the workout window would result in storage being preferential in the muscle cell rather than fat cell, but maybe somebody more knowledgeable on this could chime in.

Again why do you need to feed your muscles while training? Recovery happens after. Glycogen super compensation happens after. The only thing you need to do during training is train.

I think I'll put this to rest.

 

[luki7788]

Again why do you need to feed your muscles while training? Recovery happens after. Glycogen super compensation happens after. The only thing you need to do during training is train.

I think I'll put this to rest.

No offense friend, but since you've only used humalog after training, your experience with insulin is crawling. I have been using insulin for about 11-12 years and I have tried everything, starting with insulin only after training, R humulin 2-3 times a day, humalog with every meal, before and during training, various combinations of lanthus and short insulin, and I am still careful that I don't know much about it.
I will give you one simple example why the use of humalog before training is beneficial - first of all, insulin will cause ATP to recover faster after the set is finished, so it will automatically translate into the best training and, consequently, a greater training stimulus for growth. The second thing, regeneration does not start after training, but only when you cause muscle damage. It doesn't work like that - "the body - hmm, this set was very hard, it caused a lot of damage to my muscles, but I will not start repair them yet, because the owner of this body still has an hour of training, so I'll wait" lol

 

[warlock]

No offense friend, but since you've only used humalog after training, your experience with insulin is crawling. I have been using insulin for about 11-12 years and I have tried everything, starting with insulin only after training, R humulin 2-3 times a day, humalog with every meal, before and during training, various combinations of lanthus and short insulin, and I am still careful that I don't know much about it.
I will give you one simple example why the use of humalog before training is beneficial - first of all, insulin will cause ATP to recover faster after the set is finished, so it will automatically translate into the best training and, consequently, a greater training stimulus for growth. The second thing, regeneration does not start after training, but only when you cause muscle damage. It doesn't work like that - "the body - hmm, this set was very hard, it caused a lot of damage to my muscles, but I will not start repair them yet, because the owner of this body still has an hour of training, so I'll wait" lol

After 11-12 years of trying different insulin protocols, what's your preferred type of slin to use and approach when wanting to grow?

 

[luki7788]

After 11-12 years of trying different insulin protocols, what's your preferred type of slin to use and approach when wanting to grow?

humalog / novorapid before and after training in 90% of cases is completely enough to grow like a weed, advanced people with high muscle mass, additionally lanthus several times a week mainly to lift high igf "

 

[warlock]

humalog / novorapid before and after training in 90% of cases is completely enough to grow like a weed, advanced people with high muscle mass, additionally lanthus several times a week mainly to lift high igf "

Love how honest and open you're about all of this luki.

Do you also use or have clients use insulin during cutting phases? If so, do you do it around workouts or mostly for refeeds?

 

[b-boy]

Using slin long term is completely fine if you are monitoring everything else.
I've used slin AT LEAST once a week for the past 5 years. No health markers or cause of concern ever.



I understand what you tried to get at Big but you're rotating arguments against preWO insulin now.
"Isn't it bad that all the blood is pulling toward your digestion?"
No, that's the entire reason for fast digesting carbs/aminos/protein.
The types of products we have on the market now, digestion is VERY FAST and you are not pulling blood away from your muscles. Thats just

"Many guys don't feel well."
I've never even heard that. Those guys must be random gym bros and at that point, shouldn't be messing with insulin anways. Any decent level BBer i know, uses preWO insulin at some points during the year.

"But you don't need it because you cant be that depleted."
That statement can be used against ANY insulin usage.
And workout volume is heavily dependant. Personally, as a "growing big" measure, i need to be full all the time.
If you're goal is to grow, you should spend the majority of your week FILLED UP. Totally understand that's now the logic when you are dieting though.

Yea I'm a random gym bro, oops no I'm the only one in this thread with IFBB pro under their title! I fucking hate pre workout slin, it negatively effects my workouts and I have had some of the best coaches there is. If I don't go hypo I get on the edge where I start sweating like crazy but no shakes. I prefer post workout insulin and other times throughout the day. Putting blanket statements on things is silky, just like not everyone can handle a gram of test, as crazy as that seems in my mind there are many out there who's genetics makes them get horrible side effect from a gram of test.

 

[heavyhitter]

No offense friend, but since you've only used humalog after training, your experience with insulin is crawling. I have been using insulin for about 11-12 years and I have tried everything, starting with insulin only after training, R humulin 2-3 times a day, humalog with every meal, before and during training, various combinations of lanthus and short insulin, and I am still careful that I don't know much about it.
I will give you one simple example why the use of humalog before training is beneficial - first of all, insulin will cause ATP to recover faster after the set is finished, so it will automatically translate into the best training and, consequently, a greater training stimulus for growth. The second thing, regeneration does not start after training, but only when you cause muscle damage. It doesn't work like that - "the body - hmm, this set was very hard, it caused a lot of damage to my muscles, but I will not start repair them yet, because the owner of this body still has an hour of training, so I'll wait" lol

This is especially helpful when trying to do 2 a day training. Recovery for the next bout is vastly improved

 

[luki7788]

Love how honest and open you're about all of this luki.

Do you also use or have clients use insulin during cutting phases? If so, do you do it around workouts or mostly for refeeds?

Yes, I always use insulin when cutting, and 80% of my clients use it until the last day before the competition. For classic physique competitors, I prefer to give up insuin a few weeks before the competition because they usually struggle with the weight limit and then insulin can interfere with it.
But this is my method and I understand perfectly well that there are other schools, but each one works, so choose the best one for you.
One thing I can say is that if you are super heavy, unless you have miraculous genetics then you must use insulin during prep because your own metabolism will just eat you up and you will be too flat.

 

[TheOtherOne55]

Yea I'm a random gym bro, oops no I'm the only one in this thread with IFBB pro under their title! I fucking hate pre workout slin, it negatively effects my workouts and I have had some of the best coaches there is. If I don't go hypo I get on the edge where I start sweating like crazy but no shakes. I prefer post workout insulin and other times throughout the day. Putting blanket statements on things is silky, just like not everyone can handle a gram of test, as crazy as that seems in my mind there are many out there who's genetics makes them get horrible side effect from a gram of test.

LOL
Well u know the answer then—taking preWO insulin requires intra WO carbs.
So if you are going hypo, then for whatever reason you took too much insulin.
We've discussed this a million times on here—don't let the insulin amount dictate your carbs, have your carbs dictate the insulin amount. So you must not have done that huh?
If you "aren't feeling well" during preWO insulin yet feel fine at other times....its because you're taking too much insulin.

Insulin has a learning curve. If you don't think it works or are feeling off, its 100% because you are taking incorrect amounts.
That's all. I've had that EXACT feeling you describe....sweating like crazy, slightly light headed. EVERY BBer knows that hypo feeling. You/Me/every BBer/Everyone here took too much. You address the dosage accordingly and try again.