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excessive use of insulin

cmryan

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Thank you so much for this information and your personal experience. I will report back on my experience tomorrow.
Oh and the other benefit (as I'm sure you're aware) is that it's cheap as dirt. $25 for 1000iu, which is roughly between 6-12 months worth of doses depending if I want to use both pre and post workout or just pre.
 

OuchThatHurts

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This is ending up how so many things in bodybuilding do these days - science says vs. real world experience.

BOTH can be right.

The body isn't a textbook, things don't work the same for everybody. If they did, we'd an easy protocol for every bodybuilder to follow and tons of superheavyweights at 6% walking around. That's never going to happen.
This is exactly right. Here come the articles and studies. Have scientists ever really studied what bodybuilders were doing and what was working intensely? Not that I've seen.

I'll go one further. Insulin pre-WO works. It just does. Just because it's not scientifically known why at this moment means almost nothing. The science inside what we do (BBing PLing) is seriously limited in almost every area. It is now, and always has been. Just because muscle biopsies of rats forced to run on a wheel for 45 min or the muscle biopsies of 47 geriatric diabetics who were given xyz, means jack. Other times, when the science is there, the real-world experience just isn't.

Everything we do is practically all about defying logic and gravity. I'm a low carb guy. If insulin wasn't allowing for some additional creation of ATP and/or glycogen during a workout, then why do I go hypo halfway through a 60 min workout when without insulin I'd be fine?

Real world observations and philosophy have always (in all history) preceded science and the scientific method. I was going to bring this up in another thread talking about old timers. All because science is now catching up with what we have been doing for 30 years. Things that are now just simply accepted knowledge by people looking to lose fat and increase strength and muscle mass (like high protein, carb depletion and keto). I can hear the phrase "insulin resistance" on TV daily now where 20 years ago, few if anybody would've known what the hell insulin resistance was.

Remember just 20 years ago when it was low-fat everything? BBers knew it wouldn't work even though science and logic said it should. Want to lose fat? Eat less fat. We knew then that it was sugar (complex or simple) that was the real culprit of obesity - excess calories. Mixing fats and carbs simultaneously. All of it. Want lower cholesterol? Eat less cholesterol. How'd that go? In fact, I'd say 99% of the entire cholesterol lowering industry (medications, etc) is all bullshit. Have we really reduced heart disease with this multi-billion dollar per year industry? Research that!

I used to be an egghead, overthinking, over-sciencing everything. I'm too old for that now. Do what works for you, specifically tailored TO YOU, seek advice and experience, and then get what you get. A powerlifting record, a pro card, a state trophy, a state record, or nothing.
 

BigNJ

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which is exactly as I thought - mister wikipedia, who cannot support himself with real results only with rules from pubmed:sneaky:
Sure Luki if that's what makes you happy. That's all you got? Sorry to burst your bubble buddy but I do have degrees in Biology and biochemistry AND computer science. Now if that's all you got I suggest we both put this to rest. You already embarrassed yourself.
 

BigNJ

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For those who think that science can't be always applied to bodybuilding, when it comes to how the body really works it does. All our bodies work the same and work under the same principals. If people were to really put some thought into it they can come to perhaps a better conclusion. There are certain things that you can not change. You can not change how Glycogen Synthase works, you can not change how GLUT4 works, you can not say that you can supercomensate while you are working out. These are things that work the same under different circumstances. Just like science expalins to you how AAS work and how they exert their effect on protein synthesis and muscle hypertrophy, the same goes to glycogen synthesis, insulin and gluconeogenesis.

Let's look at what Milos states, he says, why use the muscle glycogen when we can use carbs from our intra drink? This is the dumbest shit I have ever heard. How do suppose those carbs end up as glycogen to be used as ATP? They have to fucking go through glyconogenesis which requires Glycogen Synthase A, Glycogen Synthase B, GSK, GLUT4 translocation then we can get to glycogen to make ATP. So what Milos Says is fucking stupid and nonsense. Secondly, when you are injesting a shit load of fucking carbs in short amount of time, what the hell do you think is going to happen with all those carbs? What the hell do you think insulin is going to help with here?

Some might say, oh well we are using Insulin to spare our Pancreas and to get shit to the muscle cell faster. This is another absurd way of how most people think. You are eventually going to burn the fuck out of your beta cells from all that circulating Insulin, that most likely will NOT get all these carbs to where you think they are going. Once you accept that Supercompensation happens when the body is at rest as well as GS enzyme only upregulates when glycogen is fucking depleted then you will understand why all those carbs and insulin are not going to do what you think they are going to do. This is fucking science there is no 2 ways about it. Just like when you drink water, you will eventually piss it, the same damn thing.

But no, BigNJ is a fucking nobody, he's not some 320 pounder, so what he says must not be true, because so and so heard Milos doing it, so it must be true. Use you god damn common sense and put some thought into it, and if you have no background in this shit, and all you rely on some fucking bro science, then you do what you gotta do.

Insulin pre workout will not fucking give you any real substantial advantage, your bodies make fucking Insulin and the body know exactly how much insulin to release after ingesting carbs. It does all that shit on it's own. And if you think, using Insulin pre workout for that hour or so is going to make a difference then you are mistaken. The body is fucking smart, it knows what to do, so let it do it. After the workout is when the body is primed for amino acid intake and glucose. If you do not let the muscle glycogen deplete during the workout then you will not achieve glycogen super compensation. This is not a fucking theory. You have to have all the players in line for shit to happen. Glycogen Synthase upregluates after a workout, GLUT4 translocates from muscle contractions, then you introduce that insulin when everything is primed. That's when you achieve maximum results.

Now if you were an endurance athlete then by all means, take a god damn Insulin shot with the carbs, but we are NOT endurance athletes, we are not workout out hours on end. This people is how the body works whether you like it or not.
 

TheOtherOne55

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Well this thread is trash now lol

Anecdotal evidence is just as useful as scientific evidence.
For as many people there are like Luki, there are guys like BigNJ.
"I know it works, I've seen/felt/lived it" and "Well this is how the scientific process is."
Live with it.

In reality, we swing back and forth on the pendulum throughout our training life.
I've used pre, I've you post, I've used pre and post. I've used none. All of it worked and I grew.
Aceto is the KING of just "knowing" what will work on someone. No degree, just experience.
And that's fine for some people. But i also understand that some people need more than that.
 

Elvia1023

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Yes I agree and know how to take insulin and have had wise coaches teach me also, but no matter what I go hypo during a workout, I don't know why, I can't be that insulin sensitive, 2iu of insulin and made two intra workout drinks with 50 grams of karbolyn each (1 just in case). I sipped the first during my workout, started feeling shitty and started sweating, so drank the rest and felt better then did some heavy t-bar rows and immediately after boom I start feeling shitty again and I can feel my blood sugar dropping, so started sipping the second drink and just ended the fucking workout, I ended up drinking about half of the other drink before my blood sugar finally settled, these drinks also had taurine, 10g creatine, 10g glutamine in them. This was my last attempt at pre workout slin 2 fucking iu! Now explain how I'm THAT fucking insulin sensitive
You obviously know what you are doing but I want to go over a few things. You most likely done all these things so this post isn't solely directed to you but more a general thing for anyone who has had similar issues with feeling hypo after using pre workout slin. So don't take this as me thinking you didn't do these things as some guys simply don't feel good on insulin (especially pre workout slin).

Firstly, some methods simply don't work for certain people so it's not like everyone has to use insulin so if they are super sensitive they simply don't use it. It's not like 2iu or even 6iu or 10iu insulin preworkout is going to dramatically change your body so it's by no means essential but it can be a very useful tool.

Now if x guy is super sensitive and even 2iu (or similar) makes them feel off I would be curious what their diets are like. Meaning are they going low or even no carb for most of the day then having most/all their carbs around training. Then comes the type of carbs they are having and most importantly the amount of time they are taking to ingest those carbs. You wrote it like you sipped them during your workout so that is ideal. I know many guys who would drink 1 shake in 1 go and maybe do another shake later on again in 1 go. I would never recommend that and taking in a lot of fast acting carbs like that can throw many people off especially if they are relatively fasted to begin with. Some guys even without insulin may feel sick ingesting 30-100g of x carbs during training so they need to ensure their intra carbs is something their body processes well and doesn't make them feel off when active.

If x amount makes someone feel off I would suggest using less (1iu in your case) or just using the 2iu for a few days straight away from training before adding it in preworkout. Then just gradually increasing over time until their body adapts. A lot of guys may do that but some will just add insulin in a new cycle and start preworkout straightaway. Even at very low doses that will increase the probability of them feeling off.

Most importantly I would recommend a preworkout meal that contains protein, fats and complex carbs with some added fruit. Just a good balanced meal so they are not entering the gym with lowered blood glucose. Then obviously the right intra shake (like the one you do) with approx 15g EAA's, 10g glutamine and a sufficient amount of carbs. The carb amount should be sufficient but not overly high because that it self can throw many off. They should also start sipping the intra shake straight after they injected and ensure they have a steady stream of aminos and carbs until after training has finished and they are ready to eat their post workout meal.

I have reacted bad with pre wrkout slin myself at 4iu when I wasn't covering all these things. I am not stating you didn't because again some people just feel off when training with insulin that is driving blood glucose down and carbs that are increasing levels and the combination can throw some people off. This is why carb source, amount and timing is vital for many people and if done optimally I would imagine 99% of people could run pre workout insulin successfully.
 

Elvia1023

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Well this thread is trash now lol

Anecdotal evidence is just as useful as scientific evidence.
For as many people there are like Luki, there are guys like BigNJ.
"I know it works, I've seen/felt/lived it" and "Well this is how the scientific process is."
Live with it.

In reality, we swing back and forth on the pendulum throughout our training life.
I've used pre, I've you post, I've used pre and post. I've used none. All of it worked and I grew.
Aceto is the KING of just "knowing" what will work on someone. No degree, just experience.
And that's fine for some people. But i also understand that some people need more than that.

To me it makes most sense using PREWORKOUT slin. Now some don't respond well to that so just do it post workout or none at all. Our bodies are primed for taking in nutrients postworkout after a hard training session. The only exception would be if the person is taking in a massive amount of nutrients (carbs). I have tried it every way and well it all works and people can over complicate things at times.

I am not a fan of taking large amounts of preworkout slin and as I only like to have approx 30-60g carbs these days whilst training so my insulin dose (when I actually use it) will reflect my carbs at that time. So the most I use preworkout is 6iu (3-6iu) and I have a banana (or 2) after injecting then I consume 60g carbs intra with plenty of EAA's and glutamine (etc) and that is great for me.

People don't need to be blasting huge amounts of insulin for it to be effective. Right now I am just dosing it post workout (a few days per week) and I go with approx 12iu usually with chicken, jasmine rice and honey followed by a similar meal (with fruit but no honey). The fact is everyone is different and its a useful tool that can be used at multiple times and some may prefer one way or another but arguing over the details is pointless. If you add a sensible amount of insulin to an existing nutritional plan it could add to results as long has everything is in place. Guys tend to go wrong when they start adding in loads of fast carbs to cover the insulin they use with no real thought of the added calories/sugar in their diets.

So if you prefer it pre, post, before all meals or never who really cares. Science and real world both have merit and it's often just a case of understanding both and experimenting using common sense that brings about the most understanding. Arguing over the details when all those details can work is pointless.
 

heavyhitter

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I've read the same and I found it to be just as fast acting and much more potent per iu. For example, I've taken 4iu of humalog subq ≈20 minutes pre-workout a number of times and been fine just sipping on a shake of EAAs through my worklout. I injected 4iu novolin-r IM and expected a similar outcome, but about 25 minutes later I was sweaty, dizzy, numb tongue. I tested it a second time several days later while at home and nearly identical effect. Learned my lesson. So, now I always follow-up an IM pin of novolin-r with some carbs and/or EAAs nearly immediately. So, at least for ME, novolin-r IM is at least as fast and more potent.
That’s because R has two spikes instead of the single spike you get from log
 

heavyhitter

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I did not want to write this either, but you obviously yourself don't know why you do things. And just because you coach people does not mean anything. Any good coach knows why he's doing what he's doing, not because pro A or pro B said so.
If you want to have a logical discussion stop throwing this shit in people's faces that you train this and that. There are many coaches that don't even bodybuild and know what they are doing because they know how the body works.
It baffles me when a "big" dude here says I do this and that and it must be true because so and so are doing it, guess what, there are many bodybuilders that don't do what you preach and are as big or bigger than the ones who do. This shit here leads to misinformation and people getting harmed.
Who gives a shit why he does it if it works?
 

heavyhitter

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This is exactly right. Here come the articles and studies. Have scientists ever really studied what bodybuilders were doing and what was working intensely? Not that I've seen.

I'll go one further. Insulin pre-WO works. It just does. Just because it's not scientifically known why at this moment means almost nothing. The science inside what we do (BBing PLing) is seriously limited in almost every area. It is now, and always has been. Just because muscle biopsies of rats forced to run on a wheel for 45 min or the muscle biopsies of 47 geriatric diabetics who were given xyz, means jack. Other times, when the science is there, the real-world experience just isn't.

Everything we do is practically all about defying logic and gravity. I'm a low carb guy. If insulin wasn't allowing for some additional creation of ATP and/or glycogen during a workout, then why do I go hypo halfway through a 60 min workout when without insulin I'd be fine?

Real world observations and philosophy have always (in all history) preceded science and the scientific method. I was going to bring this up in another thread talking about old timers. All because science is now catching up with what we have been doing for 30 years. Things that are now just simply accepted knowledge by people looking to lose fat and increase strength and muscle mass (like high protein, carb depletion and keto). I can hear the phrase "insulin resistance" on TV daily now where 20 years ago, few if anybody would've known what the hell insulin resistance was.

Remember just 20 years ago when it was low-fat everything? BBers knew it wouldn't work even though science and logic said it should. Want to lose fat? Eat less fat. We knew then that it was sugar (complex or simple) that was the real culprit of obesity - excess calories. Mixing fats and carbs simultaneously. All of it. Want lower cholesterol? Eat less cholesterol. How'd that go? In fact, I'd say 99% of the entire cholesterol lowering industry (medications, etc) is all bullshit. Have we really reduced heart disease with this multi-billion dollar per year industry? Research that!

I used to be an egghead, overthinking, over-sciencing everything. I'm too old for that now. Do what works for you, specifically tailored TO YOU, seek advice and experience, and then get what you get. A powerlifting record, a pro card, a state trophy, a state record, or nothing.
Like you mentioned, the only reason science hasn’t proven if or why it works is what the fuck scientist is going to spend research grants figuring out what a very very tiny portion of the population does to gain abnormal amounts of mass. These things will never be studied so we’re stuck with in the trenches evidence. Science also told us dietary cholesterol was bad, and gave us the fucked up food pyramid
 

heavyhitter

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Repost
 

OuchThatHurts

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For those who think that science can't be always applied to bodybuilding,
Nobody ever suggested that it couldn't. Only that some mechanisms of actions in accordance with a myriad of other factor are not fully understood.

when it comes to how the body really works it does. All our bodies work the same and work under the same principals. If people were to really put some thought into it they can come to perhaps a better conclusion. There are certain things that you can not change. You can not change how Glycogen Synthase works, you can not change how GLUT4 works, you can not say that you can supercomensate while you are working out. These are things that work the same under different circumstances.
Our bodies have chemical reactions and that is a fact. But under varying circumstances, there is no scientific reason to rule out very degrees of these operations.

Just like science expalins to you how AAS work and how they exert their effect on protein synthesis and muscle hypertrophy, the same goes to glycogen synthesis, insulin and gluconeogenesis.

Let's look at what Milos states, he says, why use the muscle glycogen when we can use carbs from our intra drink? This is the dumbest shit I have ever heard. How do suppose those carbs end up as glycogen to be used as ATP? They have to fucking go through glyconogenesis which requires Glycogen Synthase A, Glycogen Synthase B, GSK, GLUT4 translocation then we can get to glycogen to make ATP. So what Milos Says is fucking stupid and nonsense. Secondly, when you are injesting a shit load of fucking carbs in short amount of time, what the hell do you think is going to happen with all those carbs? What the hell do you think insulin is going to help with here?
Glycogen isn't used as ATP. ATP is used as ATP.

Insulin pre workout will not fucking give you any real substantial advantage, your bodies make fucking Insulin and the body know exactly how much insulin to release after ingesting carbs. It does all that shit on it's own. And if you think, using Insulin pre workout for that hour or so is going to make a difference then you are mistaken. The body is fucking smart, it knows what to do, so let it do it.
So the body knows when to create supraphysiological amounts of testosterone, IGF and GH then to produce increased contractile strength and hypertrophy in skeletal muscle? Or do we force it to do so through progressive training, testosterone and analogues, and peptide administration?

After the workout is when the body is primed for amino acid intake and glucose. If you do not let the muscle glycogen deplete during the workout then you will not achieve glycogen super compensation. This is not a fucking theory. You have to have all the players in line for shit to happen. Glycogen Synthase upregluates after a workout, GLUT4 translocates from muscle contractions, then you introduce that insulin when everything is primed. That's when you achieve maximum results.

Now if you were an endurance athlete then by all means, take a god damn Insulin shot with the carbs, but we are NOT endurance athletes, we are not workout out hours on end. This people is how the body works whether you like it or not.
I believe you believe this is how the body works, but the scientific community doesn't necessarily agree with you. Point in fact, the scientific community says straight up it's not fully known. Particularly in subjects infused IV with high levels of insulin and with increased vascular activity within the muscle.

‐-----------------

Abstract​

Mitochondria are the primary site of skeletal muscle fuel metabolism and ATP production. Although insulin is a major regulator of fuel metabolism, its effect on mitochondrial ATP production is not known. Here we report increases in muscle mitochondrial ATP production capacity (32–42%) in healthy humans i.v. infused with insulin (1.5 milliunits/kg of fat-free mass per min) while clamping glucose, amino acids, glucagon, and growth hormone. Increased ATP production occurred in association with increased mRNA levels from both mitochondrial (NADH dehydrogenase subunit IV) and nuclear genes (164–180%) encoding mitochondrial proteins. In addition, muscle mitochondrial protein synthesis, and COX and citrate synthase enzyme activities were increased by insulin.

In conclusion, insulin stimulates mitochondrial oxidative phosphorylation in skeletal muscle along with synthesis of gene transcripts and mitochondrial protein in human subjects.


-------------------
Now, I'm no biologist, organic chemist, astronaut, tech superstar, ex-CIA agent like yourself but the above sounds very much like subjects infused with high doses of insulin have a fairly marked increase in ATP production along with some other good stuff re: muscle activity that may be quite helpful to the aspiring mass monster. But I'm just a dumb retired country therapist.
 

prodaf

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I made my best gain with insulin preW and HGH postW (and AAS of course). I tested insulin postW but not the same result.
 

Dugbet

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Now if you were an endurance athlete then by all means, take a god damn Insulin shot with the carbs, but we are NOT endurance athletes, we are not workout out hours on end. This people is how the body works whether you like it or not.

But some bodybuilders train 90 to 120 minutes per session, in my opinion it is not necessary, but they do. So slin in the pre might make sense if you train long and "heavy".
 

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slin pre even makes sense if you train low volume high intensity, e.g. short sessions.
You just have to take the right amount.
Longer sessions obv. require more carbs and therefore one could use more insulin. For short and intense sessions, 5-7iu pre is enough with adequate carbs imo..
 

heavyhitter

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Is it true that insulin takes your physique to the next level ?
I think insulin is just another tool in the toolbox. I didn’t explode when I added in insulin like some guys seem to do off of gh, but it did help me wel out that last ten pounds that seemed impossible when pushing my bodyweight up over 270
 

heavyhitter

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I think insulin is just another tool in the toolbox. I didn’t explode when I added in insulin like some guys seem to do off of gh, but it did help me wel out that last ten pounds that seemed impossible when pushing my bodyweight up over 270
I have an insanely fast metabolism and have to feed the shit out of it to gain once I get over about 240. I was eating in excess of 9000 calories daily. 6 meals daily, 350 plus grams of protein with a fuuuuuck load of carbs and a good amount of healthy fat. I was drinking a 32 ounce Gatorade with 4 of my daily meals, having 200 grams of carbs intra and post, adding 2-3 tbl olive oil to each protein shake, 1 meal a day where I tried to just get as many total calories as possible regardless of macro content, and eating as much junk food(candy mostly for me....I’m an admitted addict) with the visible outline of abs still. I don’t think I could have pushed past 260 without insulin. I was so full all day that I struggled tying my shoes as I had to hold my breath. And people at work constantly asked me if I was ok after eating a meal lol
 

warlock

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To me it makes most sense using PREWORKOUT slin. Now some don't respond well to that so just do it post workout or none at all. Our bodies are primed for taking in nutrients postworkout after a hard training session. The only exception would be if the person is taking in a massive amount of nutrients (carbs). I have tried it every way and well it all works and people can over complicate things at times.

I am not a fan of taking large amounts of preworkout slin and as I only like to have approx 30-60g carbs these days whilst training so my insulin dose (when I actually use it) will reflect my carbs at that time. So the most I use preworkout is 6iu (3-6iu) and I have a banana (or 2) after injecting then I consume 60g carbs intra with plenty of EAA's and glutamine (etc) and that is great for me.

People don't need to be blasting huge amounts of insulin for it to be effective. Right now I am just dosing it post workout (a few days per week) and I go with approx 12iu usually with chicken, jasmine rice and honey followed by a similar meal (with fruit but no honey). The fact is everyone is different and its a useful tool that can be used at multiple times and some may prefer one way or another but arguing over the details is pointless. If you add a sensible amount of insulin to an existing nutritional plan it could add to results as long has everything is in place. Guys tend to go wrong when they start adding in loads of fast carbs to cover the insulin they use with no real thought of the added calories/sugar in their diets.

So if you prefer it pre, post, before all meals or never who really cares. Science and real world both have merit and it's often just a case of understanding both and experimenting using common sense that brings about the most understanding. Arguing over the details when all those details can work is pointless.
Elvia,

When you dose your slin pre-workout, how long before the workout, do you inject your slin?
 

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