Experiences with Daily Low Dose TRT

[muaythai123]

I do IM for the slightly lower aromatization as well. 10mg with the 30g 1/2" insulin pin. Get the .3ml size (only goes to 30iu) and fill it normally, it fills quickly. If I'm lean I'll hit the glutes or quads, when I'm fluffy I use quads or shoulders. It's a 30g, you can stick it anywhere, the goal is just to get past the muscle fascia, completely painless.

yep i was thinking to rotate quads and shoulders. I might stick to EOD, not sure there will be much of a difference from daily and it makes life a bit easier.

do you still aspirate with 30g? I do with 29g even though I know I don't necessarily have to.

 

[buck]

I use a 29g slin pin and do a shallow IM injection. No issues from it. I always just use my quad.

Apparently people claim subQ injections result in lower E2 and I believe this is what Dr. Crisler says, but that is not true in my experience.

I have higher E2 since going to daily. It is in the 30's. But I am also getting older which seems to effect that. And my body fat levels are higher which means more aromatase enzyme.

 

[muaythai123]

I have higher E2 since going to daily. It is in the 30's. But I am also getting older which seems to effect that. And my body fat levels are higher which means more aromatase enzyme.

my E2 on daily sub q 15mg gets up to 62pg/ml (non sensitive test). Same dose EOD IM its around 40. Im not fat either around 12% bf on dexa.
I guess everyone is different.

 

[Deleted member 106824]

I do IM for the slightly lower aromatization as well. 10mg with the 30g 1/2" insulin pin. Get the .3ml size (only goes to 30iu) and fill it normally, it fills quickly. If I'm lean I'll hit the glutes or quads, when I'm fluffy I use quads or shoulders. It's a 30g, you can stick it anywhere, the goal is just to get past the muscle fascia, completely painless.

Any idea why there is this theory that SubQ causes less aromatization? Like I said it wasn't true in my experience.

my E2 on daily sub q 15mg gets up to 62pg/ml (non sensitive test). Same dose EOD IM its around 40. Im not fat either around 12% bf on dexa.
I guess everyone is different.

Wow big difference. Mine was around 40-44 on both 4x20mg IM and SubQ.

 

[muaythai123]

Any idea why there is this theory that SubQ causes less aromatization? Like I said it wasn't true in my experience.



Wow big difference. Mine was around 40-44 on both 4x20mg IM and SubQ.

Doc's state the the absorption is slower sub q (has to travel through more tissues/lymph etc to reach the liver for the ester to get cleaved and also is less vascular than muscle) and therefore you get less aromatisation.

I think people are comparing weekly IM to daily sub q which is why people get lower e2 doing daily sub q. If you compared daily IM to daily sub q, I think daily IM would have a lower E2. But everyone is different, although I have posted this question on some other forums / reddit and people seem to have the same experiences.

Its a shame, sub q is very easy to do.

 

[Swifto]

Has anyone got experience with this low dose of TRT in combination with Clomid for fertility?

Have you seen more testes volume when adding Clomid?

 

[bad rad]

This is an interesting piece. Test gel daily with Clomid and his HPTA started functioning again.

Acta Medica International

www.actamedicainternational.com

 

[Deleted member 106824]

This is an interesting piece. Test gel daily with Clomid and his HPTA started functioning again.

Acta Medica International

www.actamedicainternational.com

If I'm reading that correctly his normal levels of gonadotropins were restored from 9 months of clomid monotherapy....then he resumed TRT. Function wasn't restored from clomid while on TRT.


Introduction: Inhibition of pituitary gonadotropin secretion in men by testosterone (T) is principally mediated by aromatization to estrogen (E), which inhibits hypothalamic secretion of gonadotropin-releasing hormone (GnRH). Material and Methods: Longitudinal clinical investigation unit-based evaluation of the clinical and biochemical response to E-receptor blockade. Initial monotherapy with 50 mg of clomiphene citrate (CC) daily for a period of 9 months, with diurnal morning peak testosterone and luteinizing hormone (LH) levels evaluated at three-month intervals thereafter. The patient then resumed hormone replacement therapy (HRT) using T cream with adjuvant CC therapy. Main Outcome Measures were Baseline and stimulated T and LH levels; effect on sexual function. Result(S): CC therapy resulted in complete normalization of pulsatile gonadotropin secretion, serum T level, and sexual function. Conclusion(S): Isolated hypogonadotropic hypogonadism (IHH) may result from an acquired defect of enhanced hypothalamic sensitivity to E-mediated negative feedback. Whereas direct T replacement therapy can further suppress endogenous gonadotropin secretion, treating IHH men with gonadotropins can stimulate endogenous T secretion and enhance fertility potential. Reversal of gonadotropin deficiency with CC was found to have a similar biological effect.

 

[Kaladryn]

yep i was thinking to rotate quads and shoulders. I might stick to EOD, not sure there will be much of a difference from daily and it makes life a bit easier.

do you still aspirate with 30g? I do with 29g even though I know I don't necessarily have to.

The benefit of the protocol comes from the daily dosing. No I don't aspirate.

 

[bad rad]

If I'm reading that correctly his normal levels of gonadotropins were restored from 9 months of clomid monotherapy....then he resumed TRT. Function wasn't restored from clomid while on TRT.


Introduction: Inhibition of pituitary gonadotropin secretion in men by testosterone (T) is principally mediated by aromatization to estrogen (E), which inhibits hypothalamic secretion of gonadotropin-releasing hormone (GnRH). Material and Methods: Longitudinal clinical investigation unit-based evaluation of the clinical and biochemical response to E-receptor blockade. Initial monotherapy with 50 mg of clomiphene citrate (CC) daily for a period of 9 months, with diurnal morning peak testosterone and luteinizing hormone (LH) levels evaluated at three-month intervals thereafter. The patient then resumed hormone replacement therapy (HRT) using T cream with adjuvant CC therapy. Main Outcome Measures were Baseline and stimulated T and LH levels; effect on sexual function. Result(S): CC therapy resulted in complete normalization of pulsatile gonadotropin secretion, serum T level, and sexual function. Conclusion(S): Isolated hypogonadotropic hypogonadism (IHH) may result from an acquired defect of enhanced hypothalamic sensitivity to E-mediated negative feedback. Whereas direct T replacement therapy can further suppress endogenous gonadotropin secretion, treating IHH men with gonadotropins can stimulate endogenous T secretion and enhance fertility potential. Reversal of gonadotropin deficiency with CC was found to have a similar biological effect.

He always maintained a little function while on daily TRT use but he started Clomid without TRT to upregulate his HPTA. Later he resumed TRT with Clomid for better results in serum levels and he maintained upregulated HPTA function doing this. The ~450ng/dL his levels went up are about what I get from 10mg daily TRT injections.

After trying various combinations and allowing the body time to adjust to adjuvant therapy, the patient was stabilized to reach target levels for TT and FT on a dose of 25 mg/day CC (Clomid Citrate) together with 100 mg/day of CTC (compound test cream). Average post-treatment TT levels were 538 ng/dL in the CC monotherapy portion of the study, and 982 ng/dL when CC was used as adjuvant therapy to HRT. Average post-treatment FT levels were 14.7 pg/mL in the CC monotherapy portion of the study and 22.0 pg/mL in the adjuvant CC portion. CC consumption raised serum luteinizing hormone levels from the lowest quartile with HRT to the mid-point and third quartile of the reference range [1.7, 8.6] mIU/mL.

Later on he stopped Clomid but kept his HTPA function in range while using low doses of TRT with daily administration.

Second, the patient has maintained LH levels above the mid-point of the [1.7, 8.6] mIU/mL range even without a SERM to up-regulate the HPTX.
It is not clear whether some biochemical properties of the CTT or the prolonged use of CC have achieved this result.

This supports DC's hypothesis of combined use when HPTA function isn't completely gone. Other people have reported similar results from combined TRT and SERM usage. In light of hCG no longer being compounded by pharmacies this may provide a beneficial substitute. My clinic replaced my hCG with Clomid but I'm not holding my breathe since my TRT is related by trauma issues.

 

[Deleted member 106824]

He always maintained a little function while on daily TRT use but he started Clomid without TRT to upregulate his HPTA. Later he resumed TRT with Clomid for better results in serum levels and he maintained upregulated HPTA function doing this. The ~450ng/dL his levels went up are about what I get from 10mg daily TRT injections.

After trying various combinations and allowing the body time to adjust to adjuvant therapy, the patient was stabilized to reach target levels for TT and FT on a dose of 25 mg/day CC (Clomid Citrate) together with 100 mg/day of CTC (compound test cream). Average post-treatment TT levels were 538 ng/dL in the CC monotherapy portion of the study, and 982 ng/dL when CC was used as adjuvant therapy to HRT. Average post-treatment FT levels were 14.7 pg/mL in the CC monotherapy portion of the study and 22.0 pg/mL in the adjuvant CC portion. CC consumption raised serum luteinizing hormone levels from the lowest quartile with HRT to the mid-point and third quartile of the reference range [1.7, 8.6] mIU/mL.

Later on he stopped Clomid but kept his HTPA function in range while using low doses of TRT with daily administration.

Second, the patient has maintained LH levels above the mid-point of the [1.7, 8.6] mIU/mL range even without a SERM to up-regulate the HPTX.
It is not clear whether some biochemical properties of the CTT or the prolonged use of CC have achieved this result.

This supports DC's hypothesis of combined use when HPTA function isn't completely gone. Other people have reported similar results from combined TRT and SERM usage. In light of hCG no longer being compounded by pharmacies this may provide a beneficial substitute. My clinic replaced my hCG with Clomid but I'm not holding my breathe since my TRT is related by trauma issues.

I wonder how much that has to do with the daily dosing versus genetics to not be suppressed, given he still had some function before Clomid. And if they site the estrogen feedback loop as the primary reason for shutdown then why don't AIs work for this purpose? I was only on 80mg TRT for years and my nuts were and still are shriveled to less than half of their original size. Going on an AI to bring estradiol didn't change that, and my LH and FSH are basically undetectable. That was on 4x20mg per week.

I had heard someone else mention that about HCG but is that for all compounding pharmacies? Because I believe the one my TRT doctor uses still makes it. Where are people getting HCG then? I mean, I'm sure it's still prescribed.

 

[bad rad]

I wonder how much that has to do with the daily dosing versus genetics to not be suppressed, given he still had some function before Clomid. And if they site the estrogen feedback loop as the primary reason for shutdown then why don't AIs work for this purpose? I was only on 80mg TRT for years and my nuts were and still are shriveled to less than half of their original size. Going on an AI to bring estradiol didn't change that, and my LH and FSH are basically undetectable. That was on 4x20mg per week.

I had heard someone else mention that about HCG but is that for all compounding pharmacies? Because I believe the one my TRT doctor uses still makes it. Where are people getting HCG then? I mean, I'm sure it's still prescribed.

Genetics is key with all things. There is also an androgen driven feedback loop too. I responded well to HCG but it's only available now as big pharm product and super expensive.

 

[Deleted member 106824]

Genetics is key with all things. There is also an androgen driven feedback loop too. I responded well to HCG but it's only available now as big pharm product and super expensive.

Man my new insurance sucks too, I wonder how much it's going to cost me to try to get the boys going again. Honestly I have a feeling I'm going to have a hard time.

 

[Cdn]

You need to train each body part 3 times per week and you will not loose size only fat. Increase your protein and don`t go lower than 200g carbs per day.

You mean for example arms 3 times a week?

 

[emeric delczeg]

You mean for example arms 3 times a week?

All body parts.

 

[hemipower]

For the last several years I have been a big believer in the superiority of daily dosing (subcutaneous through a 27g pin) ...
I usually total about 200-250mg a week split out daily but considering dropping to 20/day (140 total) for a while and seeing if libido comes up... estro numbers are high normal usually with current dosing and NO AI for 3 years.

My favorite is a blend of prop/enanth to give a slightly varied release pattern, the one I typically use is 300mg total (100mg prop/200mg enanth) which is perfect... at .10mL a day it's 210mg per week... even when I add another compound (moving to primo only from here on) I stick with daily other than day1 take 1mL IM front loaded then hop on daily.

 

[bad rad]

For the last several years I have been a big believer in the superiority of daily dosing (subcutaneous through a 27g pin) ...
I usually total about 200-250mg a week split out daily but considering dropping to 20/day (140 total) for a while and seeing if libido comes up... estro numbers are high normal usually with current dosing and NO AI for 3 years.

My favorite is a blend of prop/enanth to give a slightly varied release pattern, the one I typically use is 300mg total (100mg prop/200mg enanth) which is perfect... at .10mL a day it's 210mg per week... even when I add another compound (moving to primo only from here on) I stick with daily other than day1 take 1mL IM front loaded then hop on daily.

My normal TRT dose is 20mg daily. It works great for my libido.

 

[USMuscle9403]

Ok, so I'm experimenting again to test my 'tolerance' to test, as in how much I can use without many sides, and I've been on 70mg a week injected subq. I was doing intramuscular before, fwiw. I increased to 140mg a week and seemed to get a drop in libido? Thing is, I'm not sure whether this is due to me starting subq or the increase of test. I've been on 140mg a week before (IM) and libido was awesome, so right now I'm thinking the difference was me starting subq. Has anyone else experienced a drop in libido going from IM to subq? I will go back to im at the same dosage and see if libido improves. I know bloods will tell the story, but I'm not getting any done right now. Just being honest

 

[madg]

Ok, so I'm experimenting again to test my 'tolerance' to test, as in how much I can use without many sides, and I've been on 70mg a week injected subq. I was doing intramuscular before, fwiw. I increased to 140mg a week and seemed to get a drop in libido? Thing is, I'm not sure whether this is due to me starting subq or the increase of test. I've been on 140mg a week before (IM) and libido was awesome, so right now I'm thinking the difference was me starting subq. Has anyone else experienced a drop in libido going from IM to subq? I will go back to im at the same dosage and see if libido improves. I know bloods will tell the story, but I'm not getting any done right now. Just being honest

Why bother with subq when you were dialed in with IM ? ;-)

Do the 70mg IM i suggest

 

[LK3]

Ok, so I'm experimenting again to test my 'tolerance' to test, as in how much I can use without many sides, and I've been on 70mg a week injected subq. I was doing intramuscular before, fwiw. I increased to 140mg a week and seemed to get a drop in libido? Thing is, I'm not sure whether this is due to me starting subq or the increase of test. I've been on 140mg a week before (IM) and libido was awesome, so right now I'm thinking the difference was me starting subq. Has anyone else experienced a drop in libido going from IM to subq? I will go back to im at the same dosage and see if libido improves. I know bloods will tell the story, but I'm not getting any done right now. Just being honest

yes, especially as i get older.

i have also noticed if libido drops bringing the dose down to 10mg ed brings it back and drops some water.

that said it seems like i can stay there or even go lower for a bit, i went down as low as 40mgs wk but at some point i feel off and increase it.

for perspective i used to run 300mgs t wk always as trt or base or whatever and went occasionally down to 150mg wk. now 300mgs is as high as i go and i get cycle sort of results. i do have to stop after not too long though as some aspect of side effects creeps in, usually mental, or sexual. i also have a harder time controlling estrogen. adex seems too strong. nolva is quite helpful.