Female HRT stuff

[jcc80]

This is not exactly the specialty of this board, but this is the only place I post besides reddit, which can be a shitshow at times.

Anyway, my wife (47) had a total hysterectomy a few years ago and has been maintaining on estradiol cream and oral progesterone. She typically does not feel great at all. She does get by, trains in the gym, etc.

By chance, we both got bloodwork at the same time. I couldn't help but notice that her estradiol levels were actually lower than mine (16 for her, low 40s for me). This did not seem right.

Quest Diagnostic's scale shows her "in range" for postmenopausal. But we all know there is a difference between "in range" and "optimal". Plus I'm assuming that her levels were "normal" for someone who is postmenopausal but NOT on HRT.

Furthermore, her levels have been pretty similar on previous labs. I know we've got some sharp dudes on here who may know what optimal e2 levels might be, or at least can point me towards a reliable resource for info. She has her follow up with the doctor in a couple of weeks, and I'd like to be more informed before then.

 

[buck]

Later in life men having higher estrogen levels then women is not unusual from the studies i have seen. Women mostly stop producing it yet men convert at higher rates then when they were young. 25 years ago when i first started researching HRT this place had some good info to start learning from. Good luck in you quest.

Women’s Health | Belmar Pharma Solutions

Learn more about certain women’s health conditions and speak with your doctor to determine if an individualized treatment plan from Belmar is right for you.

www.belmarpharmasolutions.com

 

[jcc80]

Later in life men having higher estrogen levels then women is not unusual from the studies i have seen. Women mostly stop producing it yet men convert at higher rates then when they were young. 25 years ago when i first started researching HRT this place had some good info to start learning from. Good luck in you quest.

Women’s Health | Belmar Pharma Solutions

Learn more about certain women’s health conditions and speak with your doctor to determine if an individualized treatment plan from Belmar is right for you.

www.belmarpharmasolutions.com

Thanks, yeah I gotcha, just that from what I read, the "accepted normal" levels for a postmenopausal woman can lead to osteoporosis and plenty of other issues.

It just seemed strange to me for her to be taking estradiol, yet still landing in this really low "accepted normal" level. I could definitely be wrong. It's a couple of weeks till her next appointment and the curiosity is killing me.

 

[danieltx]

@tjitsu is one of the only females on here regularly so maybe she can help.

 

[Black Beard]

This is not exactly the specialty of this board, but this is the only place I post besides reddit, which can be a shitshow at times.

Anyway, my wife (47) had a total hysterectomy a few years ago and has been maintaining on estradiol cream and oral progesterone. She typically does not feel great at all. She does get by, trains in the gym, etc.

By chance, we both got bloodwork at the same time. I couldn't help but notice that her estradiol levels were actually lower than mine (16 for her, low 40s for me). This did not seem right.

Quest Diagnostic's scale shows her "in range" for postmenopausal. But we all know there is a difference between "in range" and "optimal". Plus I'm assuming that her levels were "normal" for someone who is postmenopausal but NOT on HRT.

Furthermore, her levels have been pretty similar on previous labs. I know we've got some sharp dudes on here who may know what optimal e2 levels might be, or at least can point me towards a reliable resource for info. She has her follow up with the doctor in a couple of weeks, and I'd like to be more informed before then.

Creams are garbage for HRT and they often cause issues in pets and kids and husbands even with very careful use. Creams have poor and inconsistent absorption but enough to cause issues in everyone but the patient.


If you don't get estradiol+T levels to optimal, you will have subpar results. Often, women feel worse on this "HRT". Like getting a guy to 200 ng/dL total testosterone with "TRT".


Look into estradiol and testosterone injections, that's the gold standard. You can search my info on HRT in the search bar.


Generally, menopause symptom resolution you want minimum 100 pg/mL estradiol. Most women do best around 2-4 mg estradiol cypionate or valerate per week, T dose is around 5-20 mg ( target total T 50-250 ng/dL generally). These are general guidelines as everyone is different. These very low volume injections are painless with proper technique+equipment, and can be injected once to twice per week with maximum control over blood levels and generally lowest risk of sides.


The goal is great libido/wellbeing, better body composition and zero menopause symptoms. This is achieved with proper HRT (Like proper TRT in men).

 

[cage99]

If your wife isn’t yet I’d look into a wellness clinic. In my experience your regular GP’s are useless to HRT. On top of this they use outdated practices with HRT. Go seek out a specialist!

Cage

 

[jcc80]

Creams are garbage for HRT and they often cause issues in pets and kids and husbands even with very careful use. Creams have poor and inconsistent absorption but enough to cause issues in everyone but the patient.


If you don't get estradiol+T levels to optimal, you will have subpar results. Often, women feel worse on this "HRT". Like getting a guy to 200 ng/dL total testosterone with "TRT".


Look into estradiol and testosterone injections, that's the gold standard. You can search my info on HRT in the search bar.


Generally, menopause symptom resolution you want minimum 100 pg/mL estradiol. Most women do best around 2-4 mg estradiol cypionate or valerate per week, T dose is around 5-20 mg ( target total T 50-250 ng/dL generally). These are general guidelines as everyone is different. These very low volume injections are painless with proper technique+equipment, and can be injected once to twice per week with maximum control over blood levels and generally lowest risk of sides.


The goal is great libido/wellbeing, better body composition and zero menopause symptoms. This is achieved with proper HRT (Like proper TRT in men).

This is great stuff right here, thank you. About what I figured. She doesn't mind injections.

 

[jcc80]

If your wife isn’t yet I’d look into a wellness clinic. In my experience your regular GP’s are useless to HRT. On top of this they use outdated practices with HRT. Go seek out a specialist!

Cage

Yeah she's going to a naturopath who is a lot more progressive than any GP that she's seen. She did insist that my wife do progesterone, dhea and pregnenolone besides just the estradiol. I'm going to go with her on the next appointment and ask about going to injectable.

But yes, we may have to find a wellness clinic if we don't get the answers we need.

 

[Black Beard]

Yeah she's going to a naturopath who is a lot more progressive than any GP that she's seen. She did insist that my wife do progesterone, dhea and pregnenolone besides just the estradiol. I'm going to go with her on the next appointment and ask about going to injectable.

But yes, we may have to find a wellness clinic if we don't get the answers we need.

Adding all that other shit will only complicate the process (more sides, more stuff to tweak) Focus should be primarily E and T. Progesterone is hit or miss, many women feel bad on it. (especially when E levels are too low).

 

[jcc80]

Adding all that other shit will only complicate the process (more sides, more stuff to tweak) Focus should be primarily E and T. Progesterone is hit or miss, many women feel bad on it. (especially when E levels are too low).

Got it. Thanks.

 

[Black Beard]

This is not exactly the specialty of this board, but this is the only place I post besides reddit, which can be a shitshow at times.

Anyway, my wife (47) had a total hysterectomy a few years ago and has been maintaining on estradiol cream and oral progesterone. She typically does not feel great at all. She does get by, trains in the gym, etc.

By chance, we both got bloodwork at the same time. I couldn't help but notice that her estradiol levels were actually lower than mine (16 for her, low 40s for me). This did not seem right.

Quest Diagnostic's scale shows her "in range" for postmenopausal. But we all know there is a difference between "in range" and "optimal". Plus I'm assuming that her levels were "normal" for someone who is postmenopausal but NOT on HRT.

Furthermore, her levels have been pretty similar on previous labs. I know we've got some sharp dudes on here who may know what optimal e2 levels might be, or at least can point me towards a reliable resource for info. She has her follow up with the doctor in a couple of weeks, and I'd like to be more informed before then.

The male/menopausal level E is expected on E cream like this^


The injection is the most reliable way to get E levels to non-menopausal level; restoring vaginal lubrication, female fat pattern (hour glass vs menopause), libido, mood, metabolism, bone/brain/heart health, hair health and much much more.


In menopause, women end up with lower E levels than men AND very low T levels, so they age faster and less gracefully than men on average. (guys T dropping is more gradual in most cases). This leads to hair loss, fat going from butt/hips to the stomach, mood changes (lower libido, lower mood, increase anxiety/depression), bone loss, vaginal dryness, skin aging/wrinkles, etc. Reversing E will prevent all these aging/menopause effects.

 

[sickboy]

If your wife isn’t yet I’d look into a wellness clinic. In my experience your regular GP’s are useless to HRT. On top of this they use outdated practices with HRT. Go seek out a specialist!

Cage

The wellness clinics here in Vegas are mostly garbage for females. They just throw drugs at them.
The Doctors with the women are always adjusting doses or adding more stuff. Some are prescribed 40-50mgs of Test Cyp week. I know some RN’s at couple of them. And they say the high doses of Test are just to increase their sex drive through the roof on purpose. That once they increase the woman’s sex drive, they’ll believe and take whatever they tell them to because they feel so good.
They all have story after story of patients running around on their partners because they can’t keep up with their sex drive anymore.

 

[EdgeCrusher1982]

This is excellent info, my wife is having similar issues. Does anyone know of any sources here that carry estradiol?

 

[Doitagain]

Creams are garbage for HRT and they often cause issues in pets and kids and husbands even with very careful use. Creams have poor and inconsistent absorption but enough to cause issues in everyone but the patient.


If you don't get estradiol+T levels to optimal, you will have subpar results. Often, women feel worse on this "HRT". Like getting a guy to 200 ng/dL total testosterone with "TRT".


Look into estradiol and testosterone injections, that's the gold standard. You can search my info on HRT in the search bar.


Generally, menopause symptom resolution you want minimum 100 pg/mL estradiol. Most women do best around 2-4 mg estradiol cypionate or valerate per week, T dose is around 5-20 mg ( target total T 50-250 ng/dL generally). These are general guidelines as everyone is different. These very low volume injections are painless with proper technique+equipment, and can be injected once to twice per week with maximum control over blood levels and generally lowest risk of sides.


The goal is great libido/wellbeing, better body composition and zero menopause symptoms. This is achieved with proper HRT (Like proper TRT in men).

Solid advice here.
If you encounter Total resistance from the docs (sadly many still consider Test for women a big no-no) she may try supplementing with a low dose DHEA and get her Testosterone checked. Not the perfect solution but still much better than being left in misery.

 

[Black Beard]

Solid advice here.
If you encounter Total resistance from the docs (sadly many still consider Test for women a big no-no) she may try supplementing with a low dose DHEA and get her Testosterone checked. Not the perfect solution but still much better than being left in misery.

Yeah, getting HRT injections is tricky, best bet is usually telehealth type docs (or your PCP if they are open minded). You can call around and ask if they offer injection E and T prescriptions.


Best alternative to E injection is the gels. Works pretty well, but the dosage MUST be high enough. Generally every two pumps of gel +45 pg/mL estradiol on average.


For T, avoid anything but injections for best results/lowest side effects. T gel/creams = more dht = more virlization and side effects, especially hair loss.

 

[Doitagain]

For T, avoid anything but injections for best results/lowest side effects. T gel/creams = more dht = more virlization and side effects, especially hair loss.

Same goes for oral Test Undecanoate (Andriol) in case anyone is considering its use for female HRT.

 

[hogan87]

google estradiol + cancer. Taking E2 straight up is stupid and reckless, that`s been established a long time ago. It needs to be mixed with E3, estriol (4:1, E3:E2)and its called bi-est in the industry. Creams are the least effective. Troches/lozenges are usually effective enough. Progesterone is most often needed to balance the estrogen and should not be disregarded as unneeded. It can cause bloating or weight gain so minimal dose to achieve results is best. We do test pellets every 3 months and troches for the rest.

 

[Black Beard]

google estradiol + cancer. Taking E2 straight up is stupid and reckless, that`s been established a long time ago. It needs to be mixed with E3, estriol (4:1, E3:E2)and its called bi-est in the industry. Creams are the least effective. Troches/lozenges are usually effective enough. Progesterone is most often needed to balance the estrogen and should not be disregarded as unneeded. It can cause bloating or weight gain so minimal dose to achieve results is best. We do test pellets every 3 months and troches for the rest.

The issue with pellets is that often time, women will have male hormone profile on them for some time after. Often, you will see +500 total testosterone and very low estradiol (If E pellets or proper E replacement is not provided). I've seen many women lose hair in MPB pattern and virilization from pellet therapy.

Pellets are also one of the least cost effective methods of HRT, high profit margin for clinic, very low control over the dosage. If the pellet is overdosed, the woman is literally stuck with that pellet for some time. If it's too low, she's still stuck with the pellet or needs another one.



The estradiol = cancer thing is as iffy as the connection between testosterone = cancer (prostate). Sure, estradiol is needed by breast/uterine cancers to grow (but so do your other tissues for optimal function; heart, hair , skin, bone, and brain). Same with testosterone, castration/total hysterectomy will generally protect a man/woman from prostate/breast cancer but will rob is other tissues of a very vital hormone/s. It's not as simple as E = cancer / T = cancer, but we know the severe effects of testosterone/estradiol deprivation in both sexes on quality of life, health, and mental/physically well-being.

There is even some evidence that estrogen may have some protective effect against breast cancer. https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC3636519/


Women are generally diagnosed with breast cancer in menopausal ages when estradiol levels are LOW. The interesting thing is, the number of pregnancies a woman has seems to provide a PROTECTIVE effect against breast cancer, yet pregnancy estradiol levels can peak as high as 70,000 pg/mL with minimum +1,000 pg/mL levels for 9 months.


If estradiol "causes cancer" pregnancy would increase the risk of cancer and we would see cancers happening more often in young women (estradiol levels fluctuating between 50-1,000 pg/mL until menopause), not menopausal women with very low or undetectable estradiol levels (often 50 pg/mL to undetectable levels).


Testosterone when used in HRT may also provide some protection against cancers . (here's one of many studies : https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/33870115/ )

 

[hogan87]

Women are generally diagnosed with breast cancer in menopausal ages when estradiol levels are LOW. The interesting thing is, the number of pregnancies a woman has seems to provide a PROTECTIVE effect against breast cancer, yet pregnancy estradiol levels can peak as high as 70,000 pg/mL with minimum +1,000 pg/mL levels for 9 months.

If estradiol "causes cancer" pregnancy would increase the risk of cancer and we would see cancers happening more often in young women (estradiol levels fluctuating between 50-1,000 pg/mL until menopause), not menopausal women with very low or undetectable estradiol levels (often 50 pg/mL to undetectable levels

Comparing a natural estrogen level to taking exogenous estrogen is NEVER a fair comparison and you know that. The cancer risk is more so unbalanced E2/E3/progesterone. So giving just E2 is the risk. It also should not be given unless there are symptoms, not just because labs read a little lower.

virilization from pellets? No women of child bearing age or trying to be pregnant should need or be on any T. Who are the dr`s giving T to women wanting to be pregnant? They are retards! Maybe a little progesterone is needed sometimes but now you are getting into fertility issues, not just HRT.

 

[Black Beard]

Comparing a natural estrogen level to taking exogenous estrogen is NEVER a fair comparison and you know that. The cancer risk is more so unbalanced E2/E3/progesterone. So giving just E2 is the risk. It also should not be given unless there are symptoms, not just because labs read a little lower.

virilization from pellets? No women of child bearing age or trying to be pregnant should need or be on any T. Who are the dr`s giving T to women wanting to be pregnant? They are retards! Maybe a little progesterone is needed sometimes but now you are getting into fertility issues, not just HRT.

HRT is bioidentical to our own E and T. The pregnancy E levels more than cover what happens when E is elevated to extremely high levels for a very long time (with T and P also being proportionately higher than non pregnancy levels)

Endometrial thickening is a similar phenomenon to benign prostate hypertrophy (tissue growth stimulated by sex hormone). People assume endometrial thickening = cancer, as they do BPH = cancer. P and T can temper the endometrial thickening and possibly lower cancer risk (however, progesterone itself can stimulate these tissues and there are progesterone positive cancers as well).

Generally, women on long term AAS or HRT recover fertility, as do women on long term birth control once they stopped. There are cases where women do not recover fertility after stopping exogenous hormone use, but generally, this is genetics or something that may have already been present/bound to happen anyways.


Risk vs reward applies here.


HRT done properly is a game changer and life changing for many women. From depressed, tired, no libido, achy to happy, horny, energetic and loving life.


The effects are as dramatic as proper TRT in a hypogonadal male in mind, health and body.

PROPER is the keyword. Most women are underdosed on estrogen/estradiol, and overdosed on progesterone and/or testosterone. This leads to often crappy results or bad side effects, with wellbeing sometimes worse than their pre-HRT baseline.