Finasteride/Dutasteride and Heart/General Health

Deleted member 106824 · May 24, 2018

Can't find the study right now but recently read one saying some patients had their sperm count go as low as 1/10th what it was pre-finasteride usage.

concreter · May 24, 2018

I was on Fina for a while over the Winter. I did notice a difference in the bedroom. Not at all real bad but a little Off. Again I have been with the same great Women for 28 yrs and we still perform EOD....
I came off and sex improved but my Hair line is getting worse Quick.
I do the topicals but not much is helping.
I going back on 1mg a day today! But most of my cycle is Dht baised so I don't think it will help a whole lot...Sex is more of A Winter hobby for me anyway!
Will See! Gotta try something!!!!
600 test
800 primo
150 tren
150 mast
25mgs proviron daily

heman4u · May 24, 2018

I am on Finasteride 1mg daily night before bed for 2 months now. Honestly, shedding has not stopped yet. And, I feel like my hairline receding (front sides) more. I am believing it takes more time to stop and my hair will comeback stronger in an year or so....

I am still having a burning sensation around my hairline which began after starting Finasteride

carbs · May 24, 2018

Pumped340 said:
Can't find the study right now but recently read one saying some patients had their sperm count go as low as 1/10th what it was pre-finasteride usage.

yeah thus the watery sperm

i used to blow n my girlfriend all the time... never got pregnant

concreter · May 24, 2018

Easier on Her throat through ...lol

Deleted member 106824 · May 24, 2018

heman4u said:
I am on Finasteride 1mg daily night before bed for 2 months now. Honestly, shedding has not stopped yet. And, I feel like my hairline receding (front sides) more. I am believing it takes more time to stop and my hair will comeback stronger in an year or so.... I am still having a burning sensation around my hairline which began after starting Finasteride

My understanding is that significant shedding can occur for a few months prior to regrowth but I'm sure it doesn't work wonders in everyone

carbs said:
yeah thus the watery sperm

i used to blow n my girlfriend all the time... never got pregnant

And she wasn't using any form of birth control?

I rarely finish inside my girlfriend but she's not on birth control and even when I do finish in her we've never had any pregnancy concerns, so I'm pretty just just my 80mg TRT weekly has made me infertile for the time being, so I'm sure finasteride would only add to that

heman4u · May 24, 2018

Pumped340 said:
My understanding is that significant shedding can occur for a few months prior to regrowth but I'm sure it doesn't work wonders in everyone

Well I was shedding too much anyways after starting Dbol. So, as I love my hair, my only option was to stop dbol and start Finasteride. Now, I am continuing in hope. One thing I notice is that even though the shedding has not stopped, it's not as much as when I was on that Dbol

lif22 · May 24, 2018

Pumped340 said:
So you've been taking finasteride this whole time then, not dutasteride?

Correct. Dutasteride is too strong!

Anubis · May 24, 2018

heman4u said:
I am on Finasteride 1mg daily night before bed for 2 months now. Honestly, shedding has not stopped yet. And, I feel like my hairline receding (front sides) more. I am believing it takes more time to stop and my hair will comeback stronger in an year or so.... I am still having a burning sensation around my hairline which began after starting Finasteride

It takes about 8-12 months before seeing what impact fin has for you. The initial few months expect a shed and to look worse before it starts moving back towards baseline and then any improvements come after that so give it time. I haven't heard of a burning sensation but an itch among hair loss sufferers is common.

Anubis · May 24, 2018

concreter said:
I was on Fina for a while over the Winter. I did notice a difference in the bedroom. Not at all real bad but a little Off. Again I have been with the same great Women for 28 yrs and we still perform EOD....
I came off and sex improved but my Hair line is getting worse Quick.
I do the topicals but not much is helping.
I going back on 1mg a day today! But most of my cycle is Dht baised so I don't think it will help a whole lot...Sex is more of A Winter hobby for me anyway!
Will See! Gotta try something!!!!
600 test
800 primo
150 tren
150 mast
25mgs proviron daily

lol you're hooped. Not much fin can do for you on that cycle

homonunculus · May 25, 2018

I think it's worth noting that the issue is both sexual side effects during use a finasteride as well as *post*-finasteride syndrome, meaning that these symptoms can persist even after discontinuing the finasteride.

The Post-Finasteride Syndrome Foundation - PFSFThe Post-Finasteride Syndrome Foundation | Dedicated to supporting research and finding treatments for PFS patients worldwide.

(So - more to the point - the danger could be that one starts using finasteride, starts having unwanted sexual side effects, decides to come off the drug and it's "too late" and the side effects persist...

)

-S

Stewie · May 25, 2018

Hey, I got your PM. I'll give my best to get back to you on that. Been busy moving two of our kids back home from college.

As for the literature of reversal of LVH with finasteride. In short, two areas need to be addressed concerning the extrapolation from animal models (mouse) to human. One importantly, is the dosage used in this study, 25mg/kg. Given the configurations of the HED (human equivalent dose) would be exceptionally high for humans.

In this case: 25mg/kg
(3/37)=2.027027027mg•90.718kg=183.8878378354mg or roughly 184mg q.d of Finasteride for a 200 pound individual. The critical endpoints by said literature looks to be explained by Akt inhibition, which by in-large would reduced mTOR activity. We could look at other pharmaceuticals, such as metformin at a much lower dose. Not sure if that's been explored as of yet?

Secondly. Igor Efimov et al, (September 09, 2009) has described that: "Human hearts respond differently than mouse hearts to cardiovascular drugs."

Granted these were different class of drugs than 5-ARIs used in said observation.

Nonetheless, extrapolating animal models to human can be rather challenging.

musclemoose · May 25, 2018

MKSuccess500 said:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23815285

This study didn't find any cardiovascular issues with dutasteride but it didn't seem to find any benefit either. Seems most people talk about the sexual side effects.

Yes erections become an issue on prescription DHT blockers. I go the holistic route and take saw palmetto and nettle root and use Bosley BosRevive Shampoo and Conditioner that has nettle root and saw palmetto in it as well.

aphextwin · May 25, 2018

I just use Finasteride to help my prostate. I've been very lucky it hasn't fucked with my dick. That would be terrible.

Deleted member 106824 · May 25, 2018

homonunculus said:
I think it's worth noting that the issue is both sexual side effects during use a finasteride as well as *post*-finasteride syndrome, meaning that these symptoms can persist even after discontinuing the finasteride.

The Post-Finasteride Syndrome Foundation - PFSFThe Post-Finasteride Syndrome Foundation | Dedicated to supporting research and finding treatments for PFS patients worldwide.

(So - more to the point - the danger could be that one starts using finasteride, starts having unwanted sexual side effects, decides to come off the drug and it's "too late" and the side effects persist... )

-S

I've seen this and do wonder how much is psychological.

If one takes an AI, even if for years, and then stops, I've never heard of post-AI symptoms that mimic continued low estrogen. If anything it seems the opposite and people will have a rebound effect to the estrogen.

It's not like taking testosterone for years where you're dealing with a system (HPTA) shutdown. You're preventing a conversion. So I would think once you stop the drug (finasteride) you will go back to converting your testosterone to DHT and the symptoms should go away. Are you aware of any proposed mechanism by which one could still be getting low DHT symptoms even after finasteride has been stopped? Other than psychological

Deleted member 106824 · May 25, 2018

Stewie said:
Hey, I got your PM. I'll give my best to get back to you on that. Been busy moving two of our kids back home from college.

As for the literature of reversal of LVH with finasteride. In short, two areas need to be addressed concerning the extrapolation from animal models (mouse) to human. One importantly, is the dosage used in this study, 25mg/kg. Given the configurations of the HED (human equivalent dose) would be exceptionally high for humans.

In this case: 25mg/kg
(3/37)=2.027027027mg•90.718kg=183.8878378354mg or roughly 184mg q.d of Finasteride for a 200 pound individual. The critical endpoints by said literature looks to be explained by Akt inhibition, which by in-large would reduced mTOR activity. We could look at other pharmaceuticals, such as metformin at a much lower dose. Not sure if that's been explored as of yet?

Secondly. Igor Efimov et al, (September 09, 2009) has described that: "Human hearts respond differently than mouse hearts to cardiovascular drugs."

Granted these were different class of drugs than 5-ARIs used in said observation.

Nonetheless, extrapolating animal models to human can be rather challenging.

Good post, thanks

I agree we definitely can't state from that single study that finasteride should be recommended in LVH / HF patients but it is interesting and I've never seen related information before. Given my cardiac dilation I'd certainly like any advantage I can get.

Rather than such a tremendously high dose of finasteride, I wonder how the much more potent dutasteride would then affect the heart.

It's been too long for me to remember the timeline precisely, but I recall my dad's echo from probably a decade ago showed mid-range LVEDD whereas my brother was at the very upper limit (completely natural) and I am a little over the limit as of my last test. I'm wondering now if that was when my dad was on Dutasteride. Probably just coincidence but does make me wonder.

Deleted member 106824 · May 25, 2018

musclemoose said:
Yes erections become an issue on prescription DHT blockers. I go the holistic route and take saw palmetto and nettle root and use Bosley BosRevive Shampoo and Conditioner that has nettle root and saw palmetto in it as well.

Have you gotten any blood work doing that? My understanding is saw palmetto and nettle root are essentially useless.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/7805711

"there was no effect of Permixon on the serum dihydrotestosterone level."

Looks like maybe a little evidence behind stinging nettle though

homonunculus · May 25, 2018

Pumped340 said:
I've seen this and do wonder how much is psychological.

If one takes an AI, even if for years, and then stops, I've never heard of post-AI symptoms that mimic continued low estrogen. If anything it seems the opposite and people will have a rebound effect to the estrogen.

It's not like taking testosterone for years where you're dealing with a system (HPTA) shutdown. You're preventing a conversion. So I would think once you stop the drug (finasteride) you will go back to converting your testosterone to DHT and the symptoms should go away. Are you aware of any proposed mechanism by which one could still be getting low DHT symptoms even after finasteride has been stopped? Other than psychological

Yes, if you load up at the link I posted, you'll see that the associated organization is a hub for research in to this area and that proposed mechanisms are under study, such as epigenetic changes:

**broken link removed**

**broken link removed**

-S

Deleted member 106824 · May 25, 2018

homonunculus said:
Yes, if you load up at the link I posted, you'll see that the associated organization is a hub for research in to this area and that proposed mechanisms are under study, such as epigenetic changes:

**broken link removed**

**broken link removed**

-S