• All new members please introduce your self here and welcome to the board:
    http://www.professionalmuscle.com/forums/showthread.php?t=259
Buy Needles And Syringes With No Prescription
M4B Store Banner
intex
Riptropin Store banner
Generation X Bodybuilding Forum
Buy Needles And Syringes With No Prescription
Buy Needles And Syringes With No Prescription
Mysupps Store Banner
IP Gear Store Banner
PM-Ace-Labs
Ganabol Store Banner
Spend $100 and get bonus needles free at sterile syringes
Professional Muscle Store open now
sunrise2
PHARMAHGH1
kinglab
ganabol2
Professional Muscle Store open now
over 5000 supplements on sale at professional muscle store
azteca
granabolic1
napsgear-210x65
esquel
over 5000 supplements on sale at professional muscle store
over 5000 supplements on sale at professional muscle store
ashp210
UGFREAK-banner-PM
1-SWEDISH-PEPTIDE-CO
YMSApril21065
over 5000 supplements on sale at professional muscle store
over 5000 supplements on sale at professional muscle store
advertise1
tjk
advertise1
advertise1
over 5000 supplements on sale at professional muscle store
over 5000 supplements on sale at professional muscle store
over 5000 supplements on sale at professional muscle store
over 5000 supplements on sale at professional muscle store
over 5000 supplements on sale at professional muscle store
over 5000 supplements on sale at professional muscle store
over 5000 supplements on sale at professional muscle store

Gear use permanently changes physiology?

ionian

Member
Registered
Joined
Aug 18, 2013
Messages
95
Just something I've been curious about. Do you think that gear use (includes Gh, slin, peps, etc.) permanently changes your physiology to give you an advantage over lifetime naturals, even after coming off? I mean, you obviously won't be a 250 lb shredded beast on TRT doses, but I don't find it hard to believe that years of heavy gear use will change your natural physiology. But then I look at some guys like big ron who have obviously shrank a lot after coming off heavy gear use (he's still using of course), and it makes we wonder.

Another issue with this is that it's impossible to do an experiment, where in one universe you trained lifetime natural, and in another universe, you juiced for years on end and then went off. Any vets care to give their opinions?
 
Do efforts to maintain homestasis remain when administering exogenous substances? If so, would there be a new physiologic control point created upon cessation?

I havent researched this and so I'm not sure how empirical the facts are relating the suppression of endogenous testosterone upon using exogenous testosterone. It seems to be known on the boards that administering these hormones can have a lasting negative effect on your physiology.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I727 using Tapatalk 2
 
Last edited:
I've always heard that gear can push you past your genetic limit but then once you come off you will start to revert back to that limit...obviously this is over time and not immediately but who actually ever comes off long enough to test this lol
 
http://www.professionalmuscle.com/f...ont-call-comeback-he-has-been-here-years.html


Just something I've been curious about. Do you think that gear use (includes Gh, slin, peps, etc.) permanently changes your physiology to give you an advantage over lifetime naturals, even after coming off? I mean, you obviously won't be a 250 lb shredded beast on TRT doses, but I don't find it hard to believe that years of heavy gear use will change your natural physiology. But then I look at some guys like big ron who have obviously shrank a lot after coming off heavy gear use (he's still using of course), and it makes we wonder.

Another issue with this is that it's impossible to do an experiment, where in one universe you trained lifetime natural, and in another universe, you juiced for years on end and then went off. Any vets care to give their opinions?
 
Not sure how accurate these pics really are. But these seem to be the most famous mass monsters that came off and now look like normal dudes.



**broken link removed**
 
Testosterone propionate can have permanent effect on muscles, says animal study

Good news for chemical bodybuilders who'd like to change to a steroid-free lifestyle, but are afraid that they'll lose all the muscle that they've so carefully built up. Researchers at the University of Oslo in Norway did tests with mice and discovered that a considerable amount of the effect of testosterone administration on muscle tissue is permanent.

Athletes who've managed to – say – do six reps with 120 kg, and then don’t touch a barbell for ten years, will probably lose nearly all the muscle mass they've built up. But if they resume training, then they'll get that lost muscle mass and strength back in no time at all. The phenomenon is called 'muscle memory'.

In 2010 the Norwegians published an animal study in PNAS in which they described how muscle memory works. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20713720 We borrowed the figure below from the publication.

lifelongmusculareffectsofanabolicsteroidsinmice3.gif


If you train muscles the fibres absorb more stem cells. These stem cells then grow into adult muscle cells in the muscles.

The increase in the number of muscle cells in your muscle fibres makes your muscles stronger and bigger. If you stop training, then your muscle cells will become smaller, but the extra cells remain in your muscles.

In 2010 the Norwegians concluded that strength athletes can continue to derive benefit from their muscle strength into old age. Moreover, the researchers suspect that steroids users continue to derive benefit from the courses they've taken for years after stopping.

"Anabolic steroids have been shown to increase the number of nuclei", the researchers write. "Thus, the benefits of using steroids might be permanent and should have consequences for the exclusion time after a doping offense."

The animal study that will soon be published in the Journal of Physiology shows that the Norwegians were on the right track in 2010. In the new study the researchers implanted pellets containing testosterone propionate in mice [Steroid pellet]. These meant that there was much more testosterone circulating in the animals' bodies for a period of two weeks than in the bodies of the mice in the control group – the latter had been given an implant that did not contain an active substance [Sham pellet].

As a result of the raised testosterone level, the number of muscle cells in the muscle fibres [Myonuclei] of the mice in the testosterone group increased by 66 percent. Their muscle fibres became 77 percent thicker [CSA].

lifelongmusculareffectsofanabolicsteroidsinmice.gif


After fourteen days the researchers stopped administering testosterone propionate. The number of muscle cells in the mice's muscle fibres remained the same, but the dimensions of the muscle fibres decreased.

After a period of three months the researchers forced the mice to exercise their muscles more than normal for a period of six days [Overload]. The muscles of the mice that had received testosterone grew faster than those of the mice in the other group.

"Our data demonstrate that in least in mice, an episode of testosterone use may recruit a long lasting pool of excess myonuclei, and a persistent increased ability to regain muscle mass by resistance exercise in the absence of further steroid exposure", the Norwegians write. "Thus, the benefits of even episodic drug abuse might be long lasting if not permanent in athletes. Our data suggests that World Anti-Doping Code calling for only two years of ineligibility after a conviction for steroid use, should be reconsidered."

The study was partly financed by Anti Doping Norway and the WADA.

Source: 
J Physiol. 2013 Oct 28.
 
Last edited:
There was another study a few years before the Norwegian study that found the same effect of "muscle memory." If I can find it again, I will post it.
 
Testosterone propionate can have permanent effect on muscles, says animal study

Good news for chemical bodybuilders who'd like to change to a steroid-free lifestyle, but are afraid that they'll lose all the muscle that they've so carefully built up. Researchers at the University of Oslo in Norway did tests with mice and discovered that a considerable amount of the effect of testosterone administration on muscle tissue is permanent.

Athletes who've managed to – say – do six reps with 120 kg, and then don’t touch a barbell for ten years, will probably lose nearly all the muscle mass they've built up. But if they resume training, then they'll get that lost muscle mass and strength back in no time at all. The phenomenon is called 'muscle memory'.

In 2010 the Norwegians published an animal study in PNAS in which they described how muscle memory works. Myonuclei acquired by overload exercise precede hypertrophy and are... - PubMed - NCBI We borrowed the figure below from the publication.

lifelongmusculareffectsofanabolicsteroidsinmice3.gif


If you train muscles the fibres absorb more stem cells. These stem cells then grow into adult muscle cells in the muscles.

The increase in the number of muscle cells in your muscle fibres makes your muscles stronger and bigger. If you stop training, then your muscle cells will become smaller, but the extra cells remain in your muscles.

In 2010 the Norwegians concluded that strength athletes can continue to derive benefit from their muscle strength into old age. Moreover, the researchers suspect that steroids users continue to derive benefit from the courses they've taken for years after stopping.

"Anabolic steroids have been shown to increase the number of nuclei", the researchers write. "Thus, the benefits of using steroids might be permanent and should have consequences for the exclusion time after a doping offense."

The animal study that will soon be published in the Journal of Physiology shows that the Norwegians were on the right track in 2010. In the new study the researchers implanted pellets containing testosterone propionate in mice [Steroid pellet]. These meant that there was much more testosterone circulating in the animals' bodies for a period of two weeks than in the bodies of the mice in the control group – the latter had been given an implant that did not contain an active substance [Sham pellet].

As a result of the raised testosterone level, the number of muscle cells in the muscle fibres [Myonuclei] of the mice in the testosterone group increased by 66 percent. Their muscle fibres became 77 percent thicker [CSA].

lifelongmusculareffectsofanabolicsteroidsinmice.gif


After fourteen days the researchers stopped administering testosterone propionate. The number of muscle cells in the mice's muscle fibres remained the same, but the dimensions of the muscle fibres decreased.

After a period of three months the researchers forced the mice to exercise their muscles more than normal for a period of six days [Overload]. The muscles of the mice that had received testosterone grew faster than those of the mice in the other group.

"Our data demonstrate that in least in mice, an episode of testosterone use may recruit a long lasting pool of excess myonuclei, and a persistent increased ability to regain muscle mass by resistance exercise in the absence of further steroid exposure", the Norwegians write. "Thus, the benefits of even episodic drug abuse might be long lasting if not permanent in athletes. Our data suggests that World Anti-Doping Code calling for only two years of ineligibility after a conviction for steroid use, should be reconsidered."

The study was partly financed by Anti Doping Norway and the WADA.

Source: 
J Physiol. 2013 Oct 28.

Didn't read the whole thing, but if you are referring to AAS increasing nuclei count, which remain permanently and give a life-time advantage to ex-steroid users (in terms of re-gaining lost muscle mass and maintaining currently existing muscle mass), you are absolutely correct.
 
Last edited:
I think it would depend on the person and what kind of shape their endocrine system was in. If your off for a long period of time with out any kind of HRT with low test levels and I don't care what kind of shape you were in you would be fighting a losing battle. I know a few lifetime natural guys who look way better than I do. Maybe not as big or strong, but look better year round also.

As far as permanent changes go idk. I have a feeling if you took identical twins one natural and one not who both trained and the one using went off completely for a few years they would probably end up looking pretty close at some point.
 

Forum statistics

Total page views
559,674,933
Threads
136,131
Messages
2,780,538
Members
160,448
Latest member
Jim311
NapsGear
HGH Power Store email banner
your-raws
Prowrist straps store banner
infinity
FLASHING-BOTTOM-BANNER-210x131
raws
Savage Labs Store email
Syntherol Site Enhancing Oil Synthol
aqpharma
YMSApril210131
hulabs
ezgif-com-resize-2-1
MA Research Chem store banner
MA Supps Store Banner
volartek
Keytech banner
musclechem
Godbullraw-bottom-banner
Injection Instructions for beginners
Knight Labs store email banner
3
ashp131
YMS-210x131-V02
Back
Top