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Gentlemen start your engines

drkimcrawford

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HI all,
You'll understand the title when I explain......

I did a consult yesterday with a PM guy in his 20's who was seeing an Endo who told him (duh, after 3 years of cycling,off everything) he has low T. The Endo wanted to give him Clomid. The member didn't know the dose and the Endo didn't give him his numbers. But I'll tell you if an ENDO says you have low T then wow it's really low.

Anyway,I asked this guy why he wanted to try to jump-start his T after 3 years of cycling with off cycles being 100-200 mg of T so jump starting with just clomid, especially Endo dosing (low) would be difficult. He said he didn't but that's what the Endo wanted to do.

I then asked him about his marital status,GF,desire for kids. He said he wanted kids in 3 years. It hit me that he, like MOST guys (I've seen tons) never thought about the "kids thing" before starting to dabble with T and then AAS's.

Rule 1: Before anyone starts T,etc get a sperm analysis=count/motility and if your "boys" are good,FREEZE 'em! I won't start a young guy, even one who says he doesn't want kids, on T without a deep freeze. Guys change their minds.

Rule 2: (This applied to him.) If you have been cycling for 3 years and you think you want kids but in 3-4 years you need to START YOUR ENGINES now...get a sperm analysis,then FREEZE. Then you can follow part 2 of the protocol I'll get to in a moment and if your engines can't be started in another 3 years at least your "boys" will be in the freezer.

Here's the standard protocol all of us A4M bodybuilding docs use and in my experience it works 50-75% of the time unless someone is like 10 years out.

Week one: Clomid 50 mg/day with HCG 1000IU/day sub-Q
Week two: Clomid 50 mg MWF with HCG 750 IU/day sub-Q
Week 3,4: Clomid 50 mg MWF with HCG 500 IU/day sub-Q
End of this: Test LH,FSH,T,Free T,albumin and SHBG to calculate bioavailable T and get a GOOD sperm analysis.

Someone asked me today how to calculate bioavailable T:here you go:

Free & Bioavailable Testosterone calculator

Anyway.....
If the boys are good,FREEZE em.....if not....repeat above and repeat sperm analysis and cross your fingers.

I have not seem someone get their axis back even after going to a fertility specialist if this doesn't work. More clomid doesn't add more to the mix-the HCG is doing a LOT of LH/FSH stimulation here.

If T levels are good but "boys" are motile but not numerous,they can combine sperm samples to freeze.

Once the "boys" are frozen if you might want kids you have a better chance of a jump start in another 2-3 years if you add on and off cycle HCG to your regimen. This is part 2.

You take HCG 350IU/every other day....yes there are studies on this...pubmed.gov

Then you do the whole initial jumpstart again,and if it works,congrats, if not,you have the frozen boys.

If you are DONE with kids why are you bothering with clomid? It's rarely enough for E2. It's healthier to just take T cyp. And if you believe the arimidex studies (I don't,not in the doses I give),take novaldex for E2.

So there you go. And BTW I created a new cheap consult just for you guys so you can get my personal advice if you want it. Just see quick guide below my signature. Read Big A's "read this"-he just told us all we cannot ask for references and cannot post pricing for the guys who asked me to post services and pricing-so sorry,no can do-Big A is THE BOSS!!!

Have a super night and freeze those "boys"! :love:
Dr.Kim
 

readyset

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Good info here. I was lucky and after 10 years of steroid use got my wife pregnant on our first try (never wanted kids before 30). I know a few guys who aren't so lucky.

Heed this advice boys and girls. It's something many of us don't take Into account

Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk
 

Kendrxck

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That was kind of sexy






























Good info though!
 

ALLEX

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Hcg stimulates LH/FSH?

I always thought it stimulates leydig cells and suppresses LH/FSH.
 

drkimcrawford

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OOPS you are correct

Thanks to the two above you and congrats on the kids- and ALLEX TY for clearing that up-I wrote this while on the phone and MEANT to say you have enough LH SIMULATION not stimulation....SORRY...yes of course HCG mimics LH to stimulate the ledig cells....good pick up!!
 
Last edited:

drkimcrawford

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subscribe to thread

Sorry bout that!
 

thethinker48

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Hey doc,

Do you think people who have trouble conceiving after use of anabolics are usually the ones that would have trouble, had they not even started using steroids?

You just hear too much about folks getting their SOs pregnant while on steroids for years, and while it doesn't under any reason warrant neglect, but it does stir up questions.

Thanks a ton!
 

ALLEX

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Thanks to the two above you and congrats on the kids- and ALLEX TY for clearing that up-I wrote this while on the phone and MEANT to say you have enough LH SIMULATION not stimulation....SORRY...yes of course HCG mimics LH to stimulate the ledig cells....good pick up!!

Awesome...

Still confused, though.

Are you suggesting the use of HCG to help your HPTA axis get restarted?

If anything, HCG will tell your pituitary that there's no need to produce LH and FSH and will shutdown your axis further.

That's why you use HCG during cycle, not PCT.

HCG is great on keeping your testis working, but detrimental to your axis recovery.
 

buildingmuscle

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Sep 5, 2012
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I love Dr. Kim's. Articles very good info. And she always backs everything up with studies and tests. Tests and blood work will always tell you what's going on in your body

Thanks Dr Kim
 

doug1

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Had my kids already and an operation, shooting blanks now. Good article though!:)
 

drkimcrawford

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Why are my permalinks not working geez

ALLEX-
It seems counter intuitive but indeed HCG helps axis recovery. It is keeping ledig cells "alive" to what they THINK is LH.....must be the reason....

The thinker 48-
We'll never know, right? Not unless everyone is tested. I personally feel that if we analyzed all the stats that we would find that it's the guys who used ANYTHING that caused axis suppression-evenT cyp...that have MORE issues.....
 

MR. BMJ

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Dr. Kim,

What are your thoughts of using HMG for sperm count (those wanting kids...I am done myself with 2)?

and,

What are your thoughts on using Toremifene? I know some endos who are now preferring it to Tamoxifene.


For my son, I used a HMG/HCG/Clomid/low dose aromasin protocol, with a little toremifene. My daughter, I followed the above, but without the HMG mainly due to the price. I had been on mostly for 15-20 years (mostly on with some breaks). I did have a few months off all AAS prior to both kids/protocols.

Anyway, thanks for the post, glad to see you giving your thoughts on different matters!
 
Last edited:

ALLEX

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ALLEX-
It seems counter intuitive but indeed HCG helps axis recovery. It is keeping ledig cells "alive" to what they THINK is LH.....must be the reason....

Hmmmmm...

This goes against everything I know.

Okay, HCG mimics LH and HMG mimics FSH, correct?

You inject them and then they will stimulate our leydig and sertoli cells inside of our testis. They regain size/function and restart spermatogenesis.

But now, the presence of HCG/HMG will down regulate the production of endogenous LH/FSH by the pituitary. It makes sense, since the pituitary thinks there's enough LH/FSH circulating in the blood.

You can have your testis back into production artificially while destroying your axis further. That's exactly what HCG does.

So, if the goal is axis recovery, you need to use HCG while your axis is non-existent by the use of anabolics. It will bypass our endocrine system and go straight to our testis, helping them stay alive. But if the goal is axis recovery and you're no longer on anabolics, HCG will only help at testicular level, but you won't be able to recover your GnRH/LH/FSH loop.

Or maybe I was taught wrong.
 

drkimcrawford

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Mr BMJ-Congrats and I have posted the accepted protocol so my thoughts on other things would just be conjecture-when it comes to fertility recovery I really like to "go by the book"....

Allex I have guys who I have done step one with...the had kid #1 then they go back on T and 350/HCG QOD and yep,here comes kid #1-no clomid,just the HCG stimulating the ledig cells and yes recovering the axis enough to have kids. It's all about functioning sperm counts which of course depend on the ledig cells.

Now is it full axis recovery with great t levels-no....but it is enough for good sperm. T levels are not bottomed out as they would be on 'nothing' so it is thought to first and foremost stimulate sperm production and secondly somewhat restore the axis for better T levels than you would see than if the guys is on "nothing." (50-75% of the time-and my guys are not an AAS so I cannot speak about what the rate would be on this protocol for guys on AAS.)
 

ALLEX

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Allex I have guys who I have done step one with...the had kid #1 then they go back on T and 350/HCG QOD and yep,here comes kid #1-no clomid,just the HCG stimulating the ledig cells and yes recovering the axis enough to have kids. It's all about functioning sperm counts which of course depend on the ledig cells.

Now is it full axis recovery with great t levels-no....but it is enough for good sperm. T levels are not bottomed out as they would be on 'nothing' so it is thought to first and foremost stimulate sperm production and secondly somewhat restore the axis for better T levels than you would see than if the guys is on "nothing." (50-75% of the time-and my guys are not an AAS so I cannot speak about what the rate would be on this protocol for guys on AAS.)

Oh, ok... That makes sense.

Yes, HCG will restart spermatogenesis if testis are still functional, it simply will not recover or help recover your full axis. It acts on a testicle level.

Clomid will help the axis.
 

drkimcrawford

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YES it does but for "whatever reason" T levels go UP which implies SOME axis re-activation Allex. And the clomid isn't needed round two.That's what we're taught. Let's leave it at that. You're a super smart guy and I have the utmost respect for you. Have a super day!
 

ALLEX

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YES it does but for "whatever reason" T levels go UP which implies SOME axis re-activation Allex.

Leydig cells will resume testosterone production and intra-testicular estrogen conversion (reason why hcg may cause bitch tits) because hcg mimics LH, not because of axis re-activation.

You're a super smart guy and I have the utmost respect for you. Have a super day!

Thanks, doc. Same to you. Enjoy the Florida weekend.
 

NixonBCali

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Dr. Kim, first off love all your info! I was wondering if you'd be willing to discuss, publicly or privately, an issue my wife is having with hormones. I don't want to hijack this thread. It's full of very useful info. Thanks to all the contributors, I'm learning a lot


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 

dragonfire101

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Have you experienced concerns with anyone with high e2 levels with that much hcg and if so I see you prefer nolvadex?
 
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drkimcrawford

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Thanks Allex, you enjoy the weekend too!

Dragonfire101 Y E2 goes up and I never have to use enough arimidex that it's "an issue" so I just use that. For guys on high T dosing with lots of aromatase novaldex is a better choice.

NixonBCali-if you have something to discuss you can get a $50 email consult and give me all info,labs,etc-it includes some back and forth for extra questions. I'm happy to answer whatever you need in this manner. Just click on quick guide to services under my signature.

Happy weekend all!
Dr.Kim
 

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