Getting extremely lean before growing?

[NEMSZ]

Ok guys, so I’m a little conflicted here so guys with experience please chime in...

Im 5’8 and just weighed myself today and I’m 180lbs butt naked, bodyfat I’m not sure but I’d say low teens, maybe 13-14%? I know what single digits looks like on me and I’m no where near that..

My goal is to be around 180-185lbs MAX with single digits in bodyfat.. I’m into functional fitness so lots of kettlebells and body exercises and sprints etc...

2-3 weeks ago I was 171lbs and decided I’d start “bulking” up and then around May I’d diet down no matter where I was at and evaluate... But I’m not liking too much where this is going lol...

I’m only on scripted TRT Test 100mg per week, may up it to 200mg per week.. I’ve come back a long way in the last 6 months or so, I had taken off from lifting from January 2018 because of a car accident until September/October 2019, I had also been completely off TRT for 9 months prior to Sep/Oct and I got down to a measly 152lbs lol so I’ve steadily gained back about 30lbs in the last 6 months..

So anyway, I’m conflicted as to whether I should diet now, get EXTREMELY LEAN, no matter where that puts me weight wise, and then with some newly acquired insulin sensitivity, lots of clean food, and my TRT/Training I can grow lean?? I’ve never done this method before and tempted to try it.. Other option is just keep trying to grow now and put on the weight and diet down later but I feel I’m going to have to diet harder/longer that route..

Plan for the diet is just PSMF; chicken/egg white protein powder maybe shooting for 300-400g protein a day, trace fats from the chicken and electrolytes (anyone know an easy way to get in lots of electrolytes/minerals?).. Lots of cardio and some intense kettlebell routines along with bodyweight and some traditional compound movements.. I also have a pretty active job/lifestyle, I don’t sit at a desk all day, I easily get in about 12k-15k steps a day as well..

Any experience with getting extremely lean and then growing lean? Thanks guys..

 

[Bleed]

Did you use the psmf calculator? Im a bit taller than you and 254 pounds and psmf calculators all have me at 433 grams of protein prior to refeeds. You would probably need a lot less protein.

What is single digit bodyfat to you? 9? 5 percent?

You will be dragging ass if you get real low in bodyfat and try to hold it.

If you get as lean as possible it's doubtful youll put on 10 or more pounds of muscle in a short time frame.

You will hear all sorts of conflicting advice regarding your goals.

I would recommend to start leaning out for the summer time and just look good. Next winter due a proper mass gain phase then lean out again and see where youre at. You arent trying to make weight, then its just a number.

Ok guys, so I’m a little conflicted here so guys with experience please chime in...

Im 5’8 and just weighed myself today and I’m 180lbs butt naked, bodyfat I’m not sure but I’d say low teens, maybe 13-14%? I know what single digits looks like on me and I’m no where near that..

My goal is to be around 180-185lbs MAX with single digits in bodyfat.. I’m into functional fitness so lots of kettlebells and body exercises and sprints etc...

2-3 weeks ago I was 171lbs and decided I’d start “bulking” up and then around May I’d diet down no matter where I was at and evaluate... But I’m not liking too much where this is going lol...

I’m only on scripted TRT Test 100mg per week, may up it to 200mg per week.. I’ve come back a long way in the last 6 months or so, I had taken off from lifting from January 2018 because of a car accident until September/October 2019, I had also been completely off TRT for 9 months prior to Sep/Oct and I got down to a measly 152lbs lol so I’ve steadily gained back about 30lbs in the last 6 months..

So anyway, I’m conflicted as to whether I should diet now, get EXTREMELY LEAN, no matter where that puts me weight wise, and then with some newly acquired insulin sensitivity, lots of clean food, and my TRT/Training I can grow lean?? I’ve never done this method before and tempted to try it.. Other option is just keep trying to grow now and put on the weight and diet down later but I feel I’m going to have to diet harder/longer that route..

Plan for the diet is just PSMF; chicken/egg white protein powder maybe shooting for 300-400g protein a day, trace fats from the chicken and electrolytes (anyone know an easy way to get in lots of electrolytes/minerals?).. Lots of cardio and some intense kettlebell routines along with bodyweight and some traditional compound movements.. I also have a pretty active job/lifestyle, I don’t sit at a desk all day, I easily get in about 12k-15k steps a day as well..

Any experience with getting extremely lean and then growing lean? Thanks guys..

 

[NEMSZ]

Did you use the psmf calculator? Im a bit taller than you and 254 pounds and psmf calculators all have me at 433 grams of protein prior to refeeds. You would probably need a lot less protein.

What is single digit bodyfat to you? 9? 5 percent?

You will be dragging ass if you get real low in bodyfat and try to hold it.

If you get as lean as possible it's doubtful youll put on 10 or more pounds of muscle in a short time frame.

You will hear all sorts of conflicting advice regarding your goals.

I would recommend to start leaning out for the summer time and just look good. Next winter due a proper mass gain phase then lean out again and see where youre at. You arent trying to make weight, then its just a number.

Well I thought 400g protein because of how active I am and I have no problem fasting all day but my biggest issue is sleeping hungry and I need my sleep lol so I’d fast all day and give myself maybe a 6 hour window to get down 400g protein before bed..

Well the plan would be to get to around 5-6% before loosening up the fasting and adding back in healthy carbs and fats and growing, I’m not trying to gain 10-20lbs of muscle as quick as possible so have no problem being patient.. But the end goal would be to maintain 8-10% bodyfat.. Before my accident I was 188lbs and 7-8% maintaining pretty easily but I was on 600mg Test and 4-6iu GH which made things far easier.. I know to maintain single digits, even at a lower weight of around 180lbs I’d need to be more strict with training/diet but back then I wasn’t as active as I am now and my diet was way more loose, so I’m hoping that being as active as I am and “food conscious” counts for something..

So let’s say in 6-8 weeks I can be 5-6% even if it’s @ 160lbs, id rather it take me the rest of the year of clean eating and training etc to be 175lbs @ 9-10% than what I look like now at 180lbs lol I’d probably look significantly bigger too..

I guess what I’m going by is I see a lot of guys compete, and let’s say a guy gets down to 175lbs and 4-5% for a show, well after the show I see some of these guys bounce back up to 200lbs and they’re still SHREDDED.. Now I know it’s a lot of rebound and muscle filling up etc but if I can somewhat mimic that by getting extremely lean then slowly growing, I’d be happy, rather than ballooning up and suffering double later on? Just my thought, but what do I know lol

 

[Bleed]

I think i understand. You are trying to duplicate the post show rebound effect.

Keep in mind that most those guys have a lot of aas, gh, peptides, and other supps in their system so keep that in mind. And theyre dieting for 12 to 16 weeks.

Im sure there is someone here with practical knowledge that can assist you. Its definitely a drastic way to do business if you aren't competing.

Well I thought 400g protein because of how active I am and I have no problem fasting all day but my biggest issue is sleeping hungry and I need my sleep lol so I’d fast all day and give myself maybe a 6 hour window to get down 400g protein before bed..

Well the plan would be to get to around 5-6% before loosening up the fasting and adding back in healthy carbs and fats and growing, I’m not trying to gain 10-20lbs of muscle as quick as possible so have no problem being patient.. But the end goal would be to maintain 8-10% bodyfat.. Before my accident I was 188lbs and 7-8% maintaining pretty easily but I was on 600mg Test and 4-6iu GH which made things far easier.. I know to maintain single digits, even at a lower weight of around 180lbs I’d need to be more strict with training/diet but back then I wasn’t as active as I am now and my diet was way more loose, so I’m hoping that being as active as I am and “food conscious” counts for something..

So let’s say in 6-8 weeks I can be 5-6% even if it’s @ 160lbs, id rather it take me the rest of the year of clean eating and training etc to be 175lbs @ 9-10% than what I look like now at 180lbs lol I’d probably look significantly bigger too..

I guess what I’m going by is I see a lot of guys compete, and let’s say a guy gets down to 175lbs and 4-5% for a show, well after the show I see some of these guys bounce back up to 200lbs and they’re still SHREDDED.. Now I know it’s a lot of rebound and muscle filling up etc but if I can somewhat mimic that by getting extremely lean then slowly growing, I’d be happy, rather than ballooning up and suffering double later on? Just my thought, but what do I know lol

 

[jeroendebleser]

Well I thought 400g protein because of how active I am and I have no problem fasting all day but my biggest issue is sleeping hungry and I need my sleep lol so I’d fast all day and give myself maybe a 6 hour window to get down 400g protein before bed..

Well the plan would be to get to around 5-6% before loosening up the fasting and adding back in healthy carbs and fats and growing, I’m not trying to gain 10-20lbs of muscle as quick as possible so have no problem being patient.. But the end goal would be to maintain 8-10% bodyfat.. Before my accident I was 188lbs and 7-8% maintaining pretty easily but I was on 600mg Test and 4-6iu GH which made things far easier.. I know to maintain single digits, even at a lower weight of around 180lbs I’d need to be more strict with training/diet but back then I wasn’t as active as I am now and my diet was way more loose, so I’m hoping that being as active as I am and “food conscious” counts for something..

So let’s say in 6-8 weeks I can be 5-6% even if it’s @ 160lbs, id rather it take me the rest of the year of clean eating and training etc to be 175lbs @ 9-10% than what I look like now at 180lbs lol I’d probably look significantly bigger too..

I guess what I’m going by is I see a lot of guys compete, and let’s say a guy gets down to 175lbs and 4-5% for a show, well after the show I see some of these guys bounce back up to 200lbs and they’re still SHREDDED.. Now I know it’s a lot of rebound and muscle filling up etc but if I can somewhat mimic that by getting extremely lean then slowly growing, I’d be happy, rather than ballooning up and suffering double later on? Just my thought, but what do I know lol

I think it sounds like a plan for sure. The leaner you are when you start your growing phase, the more productive it will be imo.

What I'm not so sure about is being able to replicate what you had on the 600 mg Test and 4-6iu GH on just the 100 mg Test. I think you have to be realistic there and while training and eating better can definitely give you better results on less gear, that is A LOT less gear to accomplish the same end result on.

 

[Gunsmith]

Growing while staying lean 9-10% is possible but is gonna be a bitch
Growing while very lean 5-6% I don’t think would be possible without a lot of drugs.
I’m I’m not mistaken the point behind having a lot of protein in the PSMF diet is simply to prevent muscle wasting and you are gonna need to be getting that protein in your body around the clock to prevent and excess muscle break down.

It is possible to gain muscle while losing fat but you’re not gonna get that done eating intermittent fasting with only protein and working out with “functional training”. There is a reason that bodyBUILDERS train the way they do and I’ve never seen any doing “functional” or “real world” exercises

 

[NEMSZ]

I think it sounds like a plan for sure. The leaner you are when you start your growing phase, the more productive it will be imo.

What I'm not so sure about is being able to replicate what you had on the 600 mg Test and 4-6iu GH on just the 100 mg Test. I think you have to be realistic there and while training and eating better can definitely give you better results on less gear, that is A LOT less gear to accomplish the same end result on.

Yes I’m aware, I’m in the 800-900 Test range on 100mg per week, on 200mg per week I’m probably in the 1200 range, and I’m a firm believer that one can have a pretty great physique with optimal levels and training/diet, a massive amount of AAS isn’t needed to look really good.. I agree with you though that it will probably be harder, I just figure that if I can do 188ish in the single digits with 50-60% effort on higher AAS and GH then I should be able to

Growing while staying lean 9-10% is possible but is gonna be a bitch
Growing while very lean 5-6% I don’t think would be possible without a lot of drugs.
I’m I’m not mistaken the point behind having a lot of protein in the PSMF diet is simply to prevent muscle wasting and you are gonna need to be getting that protein in your body around the clock to prevent and excess muscle break down.

It is possible to gain muscle while losing fat but you’re not gonna get that done eating intermittent fasting with only protein and working out with “functional training”. There is a reason that bodyBUILDERS train the way they do and I’ve never seen any doing “functional” or “real world” exercises

Im not trying to grow while being 5-6% but more like the 9-10%.. Just trying to achieve the 5-6% to have the lowest bodyfat starting point I possibly can.. And when I started training again 6 months ago I was about the same bodyfat I am now and managed to gain almost 30lbs without too much fat gain.. I’m hoping muscle memory and bunch of good food and hard training will help me..

I’m not trying to be a bodybuilder lol I’m trying to be as athletic/functional as possible.. Think like what a CrossFit athlete looks like.. Agree or disagree with their training, but the truth is A LOT of them look fucking amazing and have the look and function of athletics..

 

[Swifto]

I dont think you need to be "extremely lean" to get the anabolic rebound you're after and then taking advantage of it in a calorie surplus. You could mini cut, lose 8-10lbs and then bulk, repeat. Being too lean you're going to risk using LBM, even on AAS. Not to mention it will hinder performance and strength.

 

[USMuscle9403]

I don't think there's going to be a huge difference between getting lean (8-10%) and extremely lean (contest lean) and the amount of muscle you'd be able to put on from the rebound. These guys putting on 20lbs post contest are filling up glycogen stores and their GI tracts (shit weight) first and foremost, so these claims of huge weight gain aren't necessarily just all muscle. That said, yes, your insulin sensitivity should improve if you're not overfeeding carbs for periods of time and that should help with your nutrient partitioning, but getting down to such a low body fat, if anything, could possibly hinder your goals since you'll be spending more time getting back up to a reasonable fat percentage. Get lean, sure, but I just don't think it's necessary to get down to ridiculous levels and put yourself through all that mental and physiological stress to reap the benefits of post diet rebound.

 

[USMuscle9403]

Also, muscle can't grow but so fast. Same goes for any kind of glycogen supercompensation once you start adding carbs back in.

 

[Bleed]

Tldr: dont get too lean. Shred down and take it from there.

 

[LK3]

of course you can do it. diet down then do like lil mini cycles with diet training and drugs, you can even do this rotating your test dose like 100-300 mgs. you gotta dial the diet in and patient with it.

 

[USMuscle9403]

For what it's worth, though...i actually recommend that, at least once, everyone should try to get as lean as you can possibly get before you tap out. It teaches you so much about diet. If you just want to do this as a challenge to yourself, by all means do it! You really learn a lot about yourself and your body.

 

[b-boy]

When a pendelum swings hard one way, it swings just as hard the opposite way.

When in an extended catabolic environment, the body up regulates to return HARD in an anabolic environment.

^^^^ if you get lean as fuck, your body will willingly move into a very anabolic environment when calories are brought back up. This is why bodybuilders have such anabolic rebounds post show IF they return to a caloric surplus with a nutrient dense diet.

 

[NEMSZ]

Also, muscle can't grow but so fast. Same goes for any kind of glycogen supercompensation once you start adding carbs back in.

For what it's worth, though...i actually recommend that, at least once, everyone should try to get as lean as you can possibly get before you tap out. It teaches you so much about diet. If you just want to do this as a challenge to yourself, by all means do it! You really learn a lot about yourself and your body.

I know muscle will only grow at a certain pace but I’d like a quality look while I achieve it, and sense I’m not trying to put on 50lbs of muscle etc I have no problem doing it this way and being patient in the process..

And to your 2nd post that’s another reason why I want to do it this way, I’ve never been super super lean, like ridiculously lean.. I have a fast metabolism and have been lean/shredded but never that shrink wrapped skull look lol

But yea the goal is to get as lean as I can and then slowly add on the size with lots of good food! Which I don’t have a problem with eating either

When a pendelum swings hard one way, it swings just as hard the opposite way.

When in an extended catabolic environment, the body up regulates to return HARD in an anabolic environment.

^^^^ if you get lean as fuck, your body will willingly move into a very anabolic environment when calories are brought back up. This is why bodybuilders have such anabolic rebounds post show IF they return to a caloric surplus with a nutrient dense diet.

Thanks for the input Bboy, just the guy I was hoping would chime in...

That’s what I’m hoping for.. I have no problem eating quality foods, before I decided to go this route I was bulking normally and I gained about 8-9lbs in the last 2-3 weeks just from raising my food, added in some Ezekiel bread and Almond butter snacks and a couple protein shakes with olive oil for example. Easy way to get in an extra couple hundred cals a day..

Question for you though; How long would you recommend this type of dieting? I plan on doing the psmf my 6 training days and Sunday will be my “refeed” day (no junk foods).. I was aiming for about 6-8 weeks but don’t know if that’s too long?

 

[alfresco]

Hey NEMSZ,

Please allow me to chime in. Having never been as lean as you would like to be . . .
I think Brad pretty much nailed it. But . . . I will add this. I do not think you need to
get super / extremely lean, that is unless you are just curious about how you look
such a low level of body fat. A certain amount of body fat (I don't have a %) is
actually healthy, and getting a lean as you are proposing serves no 'productive'
purpose in my opinion. You will grow more than fine at around 10% bf. Whatever
'rebound' effect you are counting on is frivolous, not worth the time or effort in my
opinion. Keeping or getting 'nice' visible, not shredded, vascular abs, should keep
you honest as you move forward with your muscular gains.

If you have fat anywhere on the body, then you will have more fat in the abdominal
area and if you have any fat in the abdominal area, then you will have some fat
everywhere. You can get rid of all visible fat only by regulating the input of food in
relation to the output of energy.

And too much protein can and will make you fat so don't get carried away (as you
have been lead to believe) in that department. Just keep the percentage in relation
to your body weight sane and consistent and you should be good to go.

Hope this helps.

 

[Fit2Serve]

agree with Alfresco.
Brad said it in the best words... how a pendelum swings, brilliant explaination.

if i had to get shredded to grow i would have never grown lol too hard to get down to 5% its not comfortable at all. i could only do it for contest preps. for offseason and growing i always stayed around 9-10% bodyfat. i really feel that is a comfortable (which makes it lil more optimal) bf% for growing. i feel at that bf% the body isnt doing any "tricks" so to speak. it will respond to whatever you throw at it in a predictable fashion. hope that makes sense...
-F2S

 

[TheOtherOne55]

Diet down first.

If you went from 171 to 180...9lbs in 2 weeks....and you think you're 14%, that bf% right there is much to high to bulk.
14% IMO is where you should stop on a bulk. You'll notice your progress AND be more motivated when you are 8% and can SEE the gains.

No matter what you do, bodyfat gain is inevitable when bulking. If you start at 170 and gain 15lbs...maybe 7-9 will be true muscle mass and thats if EVERYTHING goes right. Start lean because you willll get some fat on your body.

 

[GetYucked]

When a pendelum swings hard one way, it swings just as hard the opposite way.

When in an extended catabolic environment, the body up regulates to return HARD in an anabolic environment.

^^^^ if you get lean as fuck, your body will willingly move into a very anabolic environment when calories are brought back up. This is why bodybuilders have such anabolic rebounds post show IF they return to a caloric surplus with a nutrient dense diet.

This held true for me post show; added in insulin and tons of clean calories the 4 weeks post show, I added quality mass (and plenty of water)!

 

[b-boy]

Diet down first.

If you went from 171 to 180...9lbs in 2 weeks....and you think you're 14%, that bf% right there is much to high to bulk.
14% IMO is where you should stop on a bulk. You'll notice your progress AND be more motivated when you are 8% and can SEE the gains.

No matter what you do, bodyfat gain is inevitable when bulking. If you start at 170 and gain 15lbs...maybe 7-9 will be true muscle mass and thats if EVERYTHING goes right. Start lean because you willll get some fat on your body.

^^^^ this right here ^^^^
8% is fucking easy to get down to, you are not going to suffer, your testosterone is not going to take a nose dive, and you can rid yourself of some decent subcutaneous fat and hopefully intra abdominal fat (visceral).
This is the place you want to be before trying to go in a muscle gaining phase!