Getting more, out of less...

[hemipower]

A little update...

Daily:
AM:
30-35mg test E
100iu HCG
200mg DIM
200mcg ipam/200mcg cjc1295
500mg metformin

PM:
2iu gh
10mg MK
25mg DHEA
500mg metformin

I swapped to DAILY test pins and very happy with it... I have been able to further lower my test dose to an average of ~225mg total weekly intake (about 30-35mg a day) AND take arim dose from .5mg 2-3x a week to .5mg every 5th day and libido, mental clarity, mood, etc all good! May try and drop the arim entirely. YEARS at 300-400mg and honestly PREFER this lower dose.

3 weeks into this protocol FYI and plan to continue long term. I have some 1mL pins with a removable 27g ... so I swap a 23g on and draw just over .15mL every single morning... swap the 27g back on and subcutaneous inj into love handle area or the fat fold at the glute...really not enough on my stomach itself to pin currently but even those areas between intermittent fasting days and metformin are shrinking down quite a bit.

Lowered gh dose to 2iu before bed and added in MK at 10-12mg before bed also...ipam/cjc at 200mcg each first thing in the morn with 100iu of hcg daily. Lowered dhea to only 25mg per day and only taking pregnenalone when I need a little anxiety relief and even that I have taken down to 50mg time release caps maybe 1-2x a week.

Preworkout is black coffee, 5g creatine and 10mg cialis and happy with results there too. Currently only doing the cialis on trained days (4x a week) and not every single day to try and ward off any decrease in sensitivity. Discontinued tb500 and swapped brands of curcumin and joint pain is significant again...but it may also be estro lowering down...uncertain. Will likely add TB back and see if it helps and plan to drop AI entirely and only take a half when I feel it's needed which should be rare on daily pins of test I'm hoping. I made the mistake I often warn others not to, and changed several variables at once :banghead:

 

[rmtt]

I think I'm settled in around 125mg a week and not using an AI when on TRT using daily pins.

I know I could probably bump dose up more.....but that amount treats me pretty good and I don't want to deal with dialing in estrogen levels again as it's at a place that I feel good regardless of weight/fat swings between gaining and losing phases.

I'm still doing 200mg DIM daily.....and still using 2mg of TB500 about once every 8 days once I went through a "loading" phase. I find about 8-10 days is my sweet spot in keeping my joints feeling good.

I've also been using Synthetine for about 3-4 weeks.....really liking it.

Been on 12.5mg of MK daily for maybe a little over a month. Just now getting past the appetite gains....but everything is feeling good.

Sent from my LG-H871 using Tapatalk

 

[AthleticApe123]

Fasting cuts out a LOT of food from the week and for a period I also was not on a multivitamin. Blood work showed low TSH, T3 and T4. Doc wrote a script for Synthroid which I tossed in the trash….and got some high absorbency selenium, tyrosine and iodine and took significantly higher than RDA amounts. Within weeks metabolism and energy made a 100% come back and thyroid levels are fine!


Also there is a lot of validity to “backfilling the pathways” with DHEA (25mg twice a day should be plenty).

i agree with everything you said here but i want to add something to those 2 points.
FOr me, i can not take oral DHEA. It makes my estrogen sky high and i get bad blood pressure/hr issues.
also, for the point about thyroid and adding iodine, selenium and tyrosine:
this is fuck*** true. Ive learned it the hard way:
i take 100T4/10T3 doc prescribed due to thyroid issues. Ive read an article some weeks ago about thyroid and thought i try adding idone, selenium and tyrosine in amounts over %rda to my supps.
did so and that resulting in me going hyperthyroid. Ive got a high heart rate, atrial fib from time to time, hair thinning+loss, anxienty etc. All symptoms of hyperthyroid. I am correcting it at the moment by lowering my thyroid medication from 100/10 to 75/7,5 and it seems i am getting better. But it takes time since T4 has such a long half life :|

 

[hemipower]

i agree with everything you said here but i want to add something to those 2 points.
FOr me, i can not take oral DHEA. It makes my estrogen sky high and i get bad blood pressure/hr issues.
also, for the point about thyroid and adding iodine, selenium and tyrosine:
this is fuck*** true. Ive learned it the hard way:
i take 100T4/10T3 doc prescribed due to thyroid issues. Ive read an article some weeks ago about thyroid and thought i try adding idone, selenium and tyrosine in amounts over %rda to my supps.
did so and that resulting in me going hyperthyroid. Ive got a high heart rate, atrial fib from time to time, hair thinning+loss, anxienty etc. All symptoms of hyperthyroid. I am correcting it at the moment by lowering my thyroid medication from 100/10 to 75/7,5 and it seems i am getting better. But it takes time since T4 has such a long half life :|

Excellent!
Since that post I have backed my DHEA down to 25mg once daily in order to lower estro also...since I don't take AIs anymore...I think combining the effects of dropping hcg from 200/d to 100/d, dhea from 25mg 2x a day to once and test shots to daily AND lower total dose (from 280ish to 210-240 range) got me right where I need to be!

Also once I got my TSH/3/4 back in line I swapped to multivitamin only and seem to be ok... I still have a bunch of selenium and iodine though if I need to hop back on. Docs are too quick to write that script when I bet a good % of the hypothyroid crowd is simply deficient in tyrosine, selenium or iodine!

 

[AthleticApe123]

Excellent!
Since that post I have backed my DHEA down to 25mg once daily in order to lower estro also...since I don't take AIs anymore...I think combining the effects of dropping hcg from 200/d to 100/d, dhea from 25mg 2x a day to once and test shots to daily AND lower total dose (from 280ish to 210-240 range) got me right where I need to be!

Also once I got my TSH/3/4 back in line I swapped to multivitamin only and seem to be ok... I still have a bunch of selenium and iodine though if I need to hop back on. Docs are too quick to write that script when I bet a good % of the hypothyroid crowd is simply deficient in tyrosine, selenium or iodine!

if i were you, i would switch to transdermal dhea.
it works much better for males and has much less sides

 

[hemipower]

Latest....

Daily:
AM:
30-35mg test E
6 mg masteron
200mg DIM
2iu GH
500mg metformin

PM:
10mg melatonin
25mg DHEA
200mcg ipam/200mcg cjc1295


Made a few minor changes since April...seemed to me the MK had me holding a bit more water than usual so dropped that out a while recently. And also ran out of HCG and haven't been to the pharm for a refill...stuff is costly but at 100iu a day 10k iu lasts months so will add that back asap.

Still pleased with daily test shot and the much lower total dose, and I have been off AIs completely for 6-7 weeks and feel fine! I keep some on hand just for an "as needed" small dose but I don't feel I've had the need.

Preworkout is still black coffee and 10mg cialis and happy with results there too. Had to add TB back for some aches and pains but I feel like the MK and higher IGF levels handled that pretty well for those few months on it honestly.

Going to toss some var on top of things and tighten the diet a bit... plan is non trained days 10mg twice a day and trained days 20mg twice a day. I know all the bros think if that's not enough and "need 50-100 a day because it's weak" BUT I am certain I can progress with it. About 40 days and done. Trying to do minimal lipid damage. Bump protein up a bit and take fasted days feed portion down near zero carbs. Stuck at 10% body fat and I know it's diet mediated. Need to get down to 8% to be happy.

 

[hemipower]

Daily:
AM:
30-35mg test E
30mg primo
100iu HCG
100mg DIM
2.5iu GH
1/2 grain Nature-Throid
500mg metformin

PM:
10mg melatonin
1/2 grain Nature-Throid
25mg DHEA
100mcg ipam/100mcg cjc1295


Made a few minor changes in the last month...added a very low dose of HCG, then a little primo and a low dose of a thyroid med... HCG I plan to run this 10k iu bottle out. Then will get 5k bottles and likely do that month on month off...libido is HIGH and not sure exactly why...adding HCG? Daily test admin without an ai? Primo? Daily cialis? Likely ALL of the above :lightbulb:

Preworkout is still black coffee and 10mg cialis and happy with results there. That will remain long term.

Did a month of var at 30-40mg a day and wasn't impressed, the addition of the thyroid med and the primo seem to be more effective even at a very low dose.

Very happy with the daily test dose, this too will run long term...occasionally I pin IM in the shoulder or glute as the added primo sometimes leaves a whelp/knot subcutaneously. Plan is primo at 200-300 for 5-6 months. May do year round if this goes well results and blood work wise!

As far as getting more out of less per the theme of this...I feel THIS is the best I have felt in quite a long time... 30mg test daily FEELS and performs BETTER than 400mg for me! (200mg twice a week) and better than 300mg weekly (100mg 3x a week)... I have lost zero size or strength and typically even adding in another anabolic I do HALF what I was years ago and gleam about the same results! Which should logically be the healthier route...not to mention I avoid things like tren, deca, winny, and harsh orals altogether.

 

[w8tlifterty]

Hemi, I've been keeping an eye on this w/o commenting...

I'm 35, cycled from 22-27...more on than off. Went off cold turkey for a few years and at 31 started trt.

Currently at 15mg a day or thereabouts. I've expiremented with various things in very low doses. Currently 215-217 in the AM. Not sloppy by any means, but certainly not under 10%.

Similar to you, I have found this to be the best yet for me, in terms of libido and general well being.

Test propinate/suspension mix total of 15mg daily currently (will probably go up to 20-25 soon)
Proviron 12mg daily
hcg 200 eod or e3d
letro (only if I feel my slight gyno flare which it does from time to time for no apparent reason)
1ml carnitine daily
Just added in 2iu gh about 6 weeks ago (libido, if anything, has slightly diminished since this addition but I've also added about 12lbs)

Very interested in adding primo but concerned with hair loss, and i'm sensitive to any hormonal change. But, there is no doubt at this stage in the game, simple little additions can add to the effect of test. Will keep on playing with things but this combo has been the best thus far. Thanks for your updates

 

[hemipower]

Hemi, I've been keeping an eye on this w/o commenting...

I'm 35, cycled from 22-27...more on than off. Went off cold turkey for a few years and at 31 started trt.

Currently at 15mg a day or thereabouts. I've expiremented with various things in very low doses. Currently 215-217 in the AM. Not sloppy by any means, but certainly not under 10%.

Similar to you, I have found this to be the best yet for me, in terms of libido and general well being.

Test propinate/suspension mix total of 15mg daily currently (will probably go up to 20-25 soon)
Proviron 12mg daily
hcg 200 eod or e3d
letro (only if I feel my slight gyno flare which it does from time to time for no apparent reason)
1ml carnitine daily
Just added in 2iu gh about 6 weeks ago (libido, if anything, has slightly diminished since this addition but I've also added about 12lbs)

Very interested in adding primo but concerned with hair loss, and i'm sensitive to any hormonal change. But, there is no doubt at this stage in the game, simple little additions can add to the effect of test. Will keep on playing with things but this combo has been the best thus far. Thanks for your updates

Thanks for chiming in!

Sounds like we have pretty similar stories... I have ACTUALLY been mixing in a fast test blend from a sponsor here so my test is test ace/test prop/test phenylprop/test enanthate ... it's about 70% test E via script and I just toss in a few mL of the fast blend.

I have some proviron I have been sitting on for a while thinking I'd "need" it at some point but so far it's been great without it! Honestly if you're losing hair it will likely all go at some point anyway...but proviron would likely cause it MORE so than what primo would.

Initially when stepping down from 300mg to 210 total weekly I was adding in a TINY bit of masteron just thinking I "had to cover my ass" in case that was too little test after YEARS at 300-400... dropped that about month 3 I think and don't miss it at all. Still holding 230 lbs and 10% bf. I keep a few arimidex on hand and still take a little DIM but when I have sensed estro getting up it seems to pass in about 3 days...not sure if it's mental or what honestly but being that I feel like I'm in the right range 80-90% of the time trying to just let my body work it out on it's own. I think smaller gh doses like 2-3 units daily is amazing long term for body comp, injury recovery, etc AND seems to make whatever someone is taking work just a LITTLE better...

Daily test should leave quite a bit of free test so I've not messed with the proviron or masteron in a couple months and been happy with results. Mindfkd for so long thinking to keep what I had that I'd need to STAY at 300-400mg test and no less was such a waste. Adding just 100iu hcg daily helped a lot too along with the change to small daily shots...

I feel like I am about as dialed in as I can be personally...only MINOR adjustments here and there from now on. After seeing blood work next time after 3-4 mos on primo I may just leave it in and do exactly as I am now long term.

 

[hemipower]

One question I have been pondering...

How much of the improvement in how I feel on HALF the test I was on prior is from it being DAILY admin...and how much due to it being subcutaneous vs IM?

In other words, IF I were to use the same tiny doses and just pin IM would results be the same? Better? Worse? Honestly about once a week I pin a shoulder IM (usually if the prior shot or two had any swelling or anything)...so that's where the curiosity came from.

According to Dr Crisler he sees ~20% higher free and total test levels from subQ vs IM shots...but is that head to head BOTH being EOD for example?

 

[Thaistick]

This is just my experience but I don't see any difference between IM and sub-q as long as i do my injections daily. I'm only using 10mg a day right now leading up to an endocrinologist visit. Well, that along with my hcg 100iu daily. I dropped my 1.5iu a day of greytops leading up to the endocrinologist as well.
I look good, especially considering I've been basically bed-ridden for 3 months now. I've retained most of my muscle and still stayed lean. No love handles, stomach is flat, no six pack but no belly. Not only am I not training, I'm only able to stand for very short periods due to breaking my back, literally. I worry my legs are going to atrophy but doctor has forbade any training. I'm not supposed to even pick up 10lb, bend, twist, nothing.
Libido is good, no problems performing, desire and function, morning wood all good. My mood is not great but I'm worried that I'm going to be permanently disabled so I think that has something to do with it.
Once I get past the first stages of labwork I'll decide if I'm going to go back to 20mg daily depending on the results. I will keep my testosterone dosage low enough that I don't need an ai. I will definitely start back on the HGH to help with healing my back.
I hoped to be doing physical therapy by now but the orthopedic surgeon said not yet unfortunately.
I'm in a different situation than you, hemipower, obviously but I do have extensive experience and am in my 40's. I think most guys are doing too high of a dose on many drugs and too many drugs as well. I did in my past and I was very conservative compared to what I see guys posting. Of course there's exaggeration and underdosed UGL test being used, I have almost always had access to USA pharma testosterone and I believe that can make a difference.
There's some good UGL's out there for sure but I've had too many friends that got zero results in the past few years for me to trust many labs.

 

[hemipower]

Since the prior update I dropped most everything out and took about a month doing full body light workouts MWF and more off time...then took a week completely off, didn't step foot inside a gym. Certainly helped some minor aches a bit AND helped me WANT to get there and train harder again.
I've made some changes to timing also...but this was the past 5-6 weeks or so:


AM:
100mcg ipam
50mg DIM
25mg DHEA
5mg cialis

PM:
5mg melatonin
25mg time release pregnenalone
20mg test subcutaneously administered


Blood work after the prior posted changes looked SPOTLESS...so I think primo year round for me in moderate doses (30-40mg a day) wouldn't be harmful...did a little over 4 months and blood work was best it has been in ...well ever. The only reason I backed even further off was just to take a break. That's the LOWEST test dose I have been on in 10+ years and still felt fine. Good libido, good moods, good mental clarity and NO ai at all.

I prefer test at night as apparently levels raise across about 10-11 hours so even though I use enanth/prop blend I'm pretty steady with the peak in the early am during training...about as anal as that can get

Just added in MK and CJCDAC, bumped test back up and added a little NPP as well. Bumped calories back up and reduced days I fast down to just one (20-24 hours). So next 60-90 days:

AM:
5-10mg cialis
50mg DIM
25mg DHEA/25mg preg

PM:
12.5mg MK (might bump to 25)
5mg melatonin
500mcg CJCDAC
40mg test/30mg npp

Considering bloat from MK and some muscle gained I'd think that I'll add about 10 lbs doing this round...still minimalist style... The MK is making me lethargic but it's tolerable...the added hunger has been a good thing as I'm not used to eating many carbs at all. Sleep is much better! I have the one from MA Supps. Pre workout I did add some glycerol as I like the fullness but still loving the cialis pumps.

After this light "blast" I will go back to a cruise of 30mg test daily and put HCG back in at 100/day with 2iu gh and drop the MK. See what I'm left with...hopefully a couple lbs of lean muscle is left over. May just do primo at 40/d with the low test most of next year knowing how well it does for me, feel great, look full, etc and blood work showed zero ill effect.

 

[opietaylor]

hemipower I do something very similar to you and here is a suggestion. micronized creatine. I didnt expect much of anything at all from it and hadn't used it in 25 years. it added a noticeable effect. I use the BPI brand @ 5g per day along with


before bed each nite…..
20mg cyp
3iu gh or 12.5mg of MK


Cialis pre-workout @ 10mg

 

[hemipower]

hemipower I do something very similar to you and here is a suggestion. micronized creatine. I didnt expect much of anything at all from it and hadn't used it in 25 years. it added a noticeable effect. I use the BPI brand @ 5g per day along with


before bed each nite…..
20mg cyp
3iu gh or 12.5mg of MK

Cialis pre-workout @ 10mg

Nice. I actually did about the same...hadn't bothered with creatine for likely around 20 years and read a bunch about creatine and heart health and added it back in post workout for best uptake. Love it.
I'd bet with proper training and diet the above simple stack you run is plenty to have a great physique.

 

[opietaylor]

Nice. I actually did about the same...hadn't bothered with creatine for likely around 20 years and read a bunch about creatine and heart health and added it back in post workout for best uptake. Love it.
I'd bet with proper training and diet the above simple stack you run is plenty to have a great physique.

yep. I'm able to maintain way way more muscle than one would think. so much so that I will probably never cycle back up again.

 

[hemipower]

Whelp...had some repair surgery recently so had an opportunity to do some serious HEALING modalities... had success with BPC and TB along with higher than usual GH dosing at 3-4 units twice daily which also kept me LEAN while barely able to workout...dropped test back down to 20mg per day during that time also.

Moved things around a bit and did blood work again...estro was around the 30 mark with NO AI and around 240-250mg test weekly total (1450 total T and free was around 50)...still doing prop/enanth blend and happy with that. Testing out around 10% body fat with an ok diet...some intermittent fasting but diet is all over the map...divorce...:banghead:

Weight is down a bit from a couple months barely training and now going VERY light dropped from 228 lbs at 11% to about 220 at 10%...at this point I'd like to hold that weight but drop another 1-2% so below is current then will swap to old faithful primo at 300ish weekly and lose the para (which I REALLY like so far)...


AM:
1/2 grain Nature Throid
500mg metformin
2.5 - 3iu gh

PM:
5-10mg cialis
100mcg modGRF/200mcg ipam
35mg test/20mg tren hex
1/2 grain nature throid
500mg metformin

 

[szority]

Hey hemi, been following this thread a while now and have incorporated a lot of the things you have listed in your protocol with great success. I agree whole heartedly with daily injection protocol being a game changer. However, there's been a lot of talk with the big HRT docs out there on people switching to daily transscrotal application of testosterone creams. I've seen guys using the 20% creams at 1/2 gram a day testing in the 1400-1500+ range testosterone range. Also much higher conversion to DHT with creams applied on your sack supposedly. I just got a script for myself and am starting the expirement soon. Paid 85$ for 2 months of cream @ 200mg/gm test cream at compounding pharmacy. Have you tried this route or heard much about it? Thanks again for the good info you put out man, much respect on keeping it going as long as you have.

 

[maldorf]

Hey hemi, been following this thread a while now and have incorporated a lot of the things you have listed in your protocol with great success. I agree whole heartedly with daily injection protocol being a game changer. However, there's been a lot of talk with the big HRT docs out there on people switching to daily transscrotal application of testosterone creams. I've seen guys using the 20% creams at 1/2 gram a day testing in the 1400-1500+ range testosterone range. Also much higher conversion to DHT with creams applied on your sack supposedly. I just got a script for myself and am starting the expirement soon. Paid 85$ for 2 months of cream @ 200mg/gm test cream at compounding pharmacy. Have you tried this route or heard much about it? Thanks again for the good info you put out man, much respect on keeping it going as long as you have.

I would be concerned about that since I believe high levels can lead to baldness and enlargement of your prostate. I have an enlarged prostate now and can tell you that it is not fun.

 

[hemipower]

Hey hemi, been following this thread a while now and have incorporated a lot of the things you have listed in your protocol with great success. I agree whole heartedly with daily injection protocol being a game changer. However, there's been a lot of talk with the big HRT docs out there on people switching to daily transscrotal application of testosterone creams. I've seen guys using the 20% creams at 1/2 gram a day testing in the 1400-1500+ range testosterone range. Also much higher conversion to DHT with creams applied on your sack supposedly. I just got a script for myself and am starting the expirement soon. Paid 85$ for 2 months of cream @ 200mg/gm test cream at compounding pharmacy. Have you tried this route or heard much about it? Thanks again for the good info you put out man, much respect on keeping it going as long as you have.

Happy to help, and glad to hear there has been benefit from all this. I do need to update this asap ... the daily LOW dose tren was AWESOME and at least blood work wise there were no negative markers.

I have done a lot of reading about the cream protocols and would like to add that in to what I am doing for the exact reasons you mentioned...remaining daily, better DHT conversion and free levels (better libido), etc. I think what I'd want to do is change my shots to EOD and cut that total in half and then do the cream daily... all goes well then potentially go all cream and take a break from shots finally. Let us know how it goes! I may talk to my doc about this soon also!

 

[szority]

I would be concerned about that since I believe high levels can lead to baldness and enlargement of your prostate. I have an enlarged prostate now and can tell you that it is not fun.

I agree with you maldorf. Current physician I see doesn’t test for DHT levels due to the expensive cost, but I am very prone to prostate enlargement. Anytime I’ve used DHT drugs in the past I suffer from pain and issues urinating within 2-3 weeks, so if I suffer from high DHT with those route, I think I’ll know quickly from symptoms. Will keep you updated