Getting more, out of less...

[hemipower]

Well with the prior protocol got down just under 9% bodyfat which is lean for me and was still 225-227 lbs. Intermittent fasting was really a key because I was drinking more than usual and STILL getting leaner. I'm a huge fan of tren hex now...at just 20/day I got leaner and leaner with NONE of the usual tren sides. I then swapped to my beloved primo at 300-400/week and remained full and lean. Currently finishing up primo and then will spend a month or two on nothing but the bare minimums (below). Only change after that is add in a little EQ for joint health (30/day) and swap the peptides out for MK677.

I am very pleased with what I've been able to do on such low doses and I think the very frequent admin is a key component of that... test wise I still do a prop/enanth blend as I feel those are the best esters for what I am trying to accomplish.


AM:
1 grain armour
500 metformin
100mcg ipamorelin
5-10mg tadal

PM:
100mcg ipam/100mcg CJC1295
20-30mg test

 

[szority]

Hey hemi, a while back i posted on here about switching to transscrotal testosterone application everyday from everyday cypionate injections of 25mg a day(175mg a week). Just wanted to update you, I'm loving it. Energy levels arent as good for me as when I was on cypionate, but I still feel great overall. I suffered with sleep issues for years, and I'm starting to think it was from testosterone fluctuations ramping up dopamine and it kept my CNS firing on all cylinders constantly. I now cant stay up past 11pm most days if I try. I read about this over on T-Nation from a guy who goes by physiolojik who interned under Eric Serrano, he put out a ton of good info over there on TRT and hormones.

My total T after 4 weeks on and 3 hours after application was 1550, free test almost 200(could've been 12mg of boron I've been using a day or the 200mg of DIM). Been off AIs completely and this is the leanest and hardest I've ever looked. I have guys at the gym asking me If I'm on cycle, and when I tell them I'm only using test cream, I get the same reply, "No way, creams and gels suck!" LOL! I use the Vertical Diet btw and have been since April, 150g fat a day, about 200g protein, and 200-250g carbs. I got dexa scanned at 11% this month at 217lbs 6' tall.

I will say I tried one compounding pharmacy out and they didnt give me a good product, when I applied the cream there would be tons of residue left over on my fingers. Within a few days it crashed my test levels and my joints were sore and just felt like complete shit. Switched to a new pharmacy in the Vegas area, they compound it at 200mg of micronized testosterone(not propionate) per 1g of petravan base cream. I think the petravan is key.

Overall best I've ever felt. Strength is the best its been and getting great pumps in the gym, also looking veiny as fuck probably from the DHT increase. Btw I haven't had my DHT levels checked, but I have no prostate issues right now. I may try to add in some MK-677 from MA's line, I hear good things and never had good experience with generic HGH

 

[BoredStiff]

I keep harping on my unique diet style, which I adopted about 3-4 years ago because around age 30, my stomach didn't seem to handle large amounts of food well anymore. Before that, I was eating the typical 3-4,000 calorie diet of rice, potatoes, chicken, turkey fish etc.

I had been off AAS for about 6-7 years and only on TRT and basically everyone convinced me I was going to shrink to nothing and lose all my strength.

First year, lowered to 3 meals a day, 25g of protein each with a salad and a bit of healthy fats. That's 75g of protein a day!
End of year 1? Took measurements, absolutely no change in ANYTHING, except my waist basically had that really cut look all year (went from 34 inches to 29-30 inches). No lift went down at all, several went up.

I've continued this way of eating, although I upped to 5 meals due to blood-sugar getting a bit low so my protein is about 125mg daily now. Still the same.

I'm 5'9, I was 195 before and am around 180-183 now.
Measurements on around 4,000 calories
Neck: 19
Chest 45
Arm: 17
Waist 33-34
Thigh: 25

Measurements on around 3 years of 1500 calories and minimal protein:
Neck 19
Chest 45
Arm 17.5 (LOL, they actually grew, after 19 years of training, so much for not being able to grow in a deficit)
Waist 28-30
Thigh 24 (Yes, they shrunk, though I mainly attribute this to going from no cardio to about 4 hours of cardio per week, but if you look at the leg/waist ratio, I'm actually better off now..... a 24 inch leg with a 28 inch waist looks way better than a 25 inch leg with a 33 inch waist).


Every time I post this people freak out, "i used to eat that in 6th grade" "you're going to die" blah blah blah.... I'm not saying this works for everyone. What I do think is that once you hit a genetic limit, enhanced or not, that's it, you can scale way back on everything. Maintaining is a breeze, you're not building new tissue, why would you need a caloric surplus? You do need to ease your body out of completely shredded mode, because at 5% body fat, a lot of your functions aren't optimal..... this doesn't mean bulk up, i HATE that term. It means just ease up until you are ya know, 9-10% body-fat.... there's no excuse to not see your ab outlines, leg cuts, shoulder cuts etc. year-round. At that point, when your body is starting to store body fat, it is TELLING you, "ok, I have enough now", that's what fat is, it's energy spillover because you don't need any more. You're body can tap into body fat for energy, if you've gone from 5% to 10%, why would you want to keep getting fatter? The actual lean tissue results will be the same, which is basically nothing if you've been at this for over a decade and no longer juicing.

But people always hate this idea on this forum so I don't expect it to go over well lol, what I will say is that it works perfectly for me, blood work is so much better now, lean all year, same measurements, cheaper food bill. Works for me.

 

[hemipower]

Hey hemi, a while back i posted on here about switching to transscrotal testosterone application everyday from everyday cypionate injections of 25mg a day(175mg a week). Just wanted to update you, I'm loving it. Energy levels arent as good for me as when I was on cypionate, but I still feel great overall. I suffered with sleep issues for years, and I'm starting to think it was from testosterone fluctuations ramping up dopamine and it kept my CNS firing on all cylinders constantly. I now cant stay up past 11pm most days if I try. I read about this over on T-Nation from a guy who goes by physiolojik who interned under Eric Serrano, he put out a ton of good info over there on TRT and hormones.

My total T after 4 weeks on and 3 hours after application was 1550, free test almost 200(could've been 12mg of boron I've been using a day or the 200mg of DIM). Been off AIs completely and this is the leanest and hardest I've ever looked. I have guys at the gym asking me If I'm on cycle, and when I tell them I'm only using test cream, I get the same reply, "No way, creams and gels suck!" LOL! I use the Vertical Diet btw and have been since April, 150g fat a day, about 200g protein, and 200-250g carbs. I got dexa scanned at 11% this month at 217lbs 6' tall.

I will say I tried one compounding pharmacy out and they didnt give me a good product, when I applied the cream there would be tons of residue left over on my fingers. Within a few days it crashed my test levels and my joints were sore and just felt like complete shit. Switched to a new pharmacy in the Vegas area, they compound it at 200mg of micronized testosterone(not propionate) per 1g of petravan base cream. I think the petravan is key.

Overall best I've ever felt. Strength is the best its been and getting great pumps in the gym, also looking veiny as fuck probably from the DHT increase. Btw I haven't had my DHT levels checked, but I have no prostate issues right now. I may try to add in some MK-677 from MA's line, I hear good things and never had good experience with generic HGH

Awesome! I am all for better results on LESS.

I have been wanting to swap to the cream but I think compounding cash cost (there is no ins coverage) would be MUCH higher and I get test CHEAP lol...

I may make the swap OR start mixing them... do less cream and less inj or go to EOD shots to save some stab wounds. BUT as good as I feel and blood work best it's ever been I hesitate to make ANY change.

I will see what my doc says next visit and get him to write the cream...maybe the pricing wont be as high as I think...but $20 for a bottle of test, then add the prop in ... lasts me SEVERAL months. But I keep hearing cream is superior by far, and I like the slight DHT elevation it causes, better libido and leaner/harder without adding other AAS? For sure interested in that! Thanks for the update!

 

[hemipower]

I keep harping on my unique diet style, which I adopted about 3-4 years ago because around age 30, my stomach didn't seem to handle large amounts of food well anymore. Before that, I was eating the typical 3-4,000 calorie diet of rice, potatoes, chicken, turkey fish etc.

I had been off AAS for about 6-7 years and only on TRT and basically everyone convinced me I was going to shrink to nothing and lose all my strength.

First year, lowered to 3 meals a day, 25g of protein each with a salad and a bit of healthy fats. That's 75g of protein a day!
End of year 1? Took measurements, absolutely no change in ANYTHING, except my waist basically had that really cut look all year (went from 34 inches to 29-30 inches). No lift went down at all, several went up.

I've continued this way of eating, although I upped to 5 meals due to blood-sugar getting a bit low so my protein is about 125mg daily now. Still the same.

I'm 5'9, I was 195 before and am around 180-183 now.
Measurements on around 4,000 calories
Neck: 19
Chest 45
Arm: 17
Waist 33-34
Thigh: 25

Measurements on around 3 years of 1500 calories and minimal protein:
Neck 19
Chest 45
Arm 17.5 (LOL, they actually grew, after 19 years of training, so much for not being able to grow in a deficit)
Waist 28-30
Thigh 24 (Yes, they shrunk, though I mainly attribute this to going from no cardio to about 4 hours of cardio per week, but if you look at the leg/waist ratio, I'm actually better off now..... a 24 inch leg with a 28 inch waist looks way better than a 25 inch leg with a 33 inch waist).


Every time I post this people freak out, "i used to eat that in 6th grade" "you're going to die" blah blah blah.... I'm not saying this works for everyone. What I do think is that once you hit a genetic limit, enhanced or not, that's it, you can scale way back on everything. Maintaining is a breeze, you're not building new tissue, why would you need a caloric surplus? You do need to ease your body out of completely shredded mode, because at 5% body fat, a lot of your functions aren't optimal..... this doesn't mean bulk up, i HATE that term. It means just ease up until you are ya know, 9-10% body-fat.... there's no excuse to not see your ab outlines, leg cuts, shoulder cuts etc. year-round. At that point, when your body is starting to store body fat, it is TELLING you, "ok, I have enough now", that's what fat is, it's energy spillover because you don't need any more. You're body can tap into body fat for energy, if you've gone from 5% to 10%, why would you want to keep getting fatter? The actual lean tissue results will be the same, which is basically nothing if you've been at this for over a decade and no longer juicing.

But people always hate this idea on this forum so I don't expect it to go over well lol, what I will say is that it works perfectly for me, blood work is so much better now, lean all year, same measurements, cheaper food bill. Works for me.

Yeah it takes WAY less to MAINTAIN than to build...that's the difference. I am in the same boat...as I have likely mentioned above I do long(ish) bouts of intermittent fasting (20-22 hours zero calories) on days that I don't lift. Then I do a small meal mostly protein low carb low fat and likely a shake later with some PB that's it for that day... currently doing that 4 days a week and only training 3 days.

I am doing a full body workout, day off/fast, lower body, day off/fast, upper body, TWO days off fasted...all higher rep also, the full body day is only basic lifts and heavier (12-15 reps) and the split days 20 rep per set minimum.
I stay lean...keep 90% strength and size... I've been accused of lying about how much weight I train with lol... no really...20+ reps with a challenging weight isn't much... 60 lb dumbbells for bench press or row for example... squats with 185-225 lbs... shoulder press with 45 lb dumbbells... "my first cycle ILS" guys look at me funny as they go twice as heavy for ugly sets of 6-8 reps.

Days I feed aren't but about 2300-2500 calories on average I bet... at 225 lbs I get 180-200g protein and about 200 carbs and maybe 100g fat. Fasted days prob 800-1000 calories, putting the 2 day average around 1500-1600. Now of course there are those occasional F it days where I will have around 4000 calories but those aren't but a few times a month. Always hover around 10-11% bodyfat year round. Maybe winter time peak at 12% "for the holidays" lol. I can push down to 8% if I just actually count everything and nail it and do more cardio.

But yeah as long as you support your muscle with training and hormones are optimized you can consumer calories more in line with average Joe and still hold MOST of that muscle... thankfully! Sure was hard as hell to BUILD it!

 

[szority]

Just a FYI, I pay $45 for 35 days worth of cream w/out insurance. I used to pay $80 for 2x 10ml vials of Pfizer Testosterone Cypionate, so yes cream is more expensive. If you feel and look great on injections than why change, but If you like expirementing it can't hurt to try.

Awesome! I am all for better results on LESS.

I have been wanting to swap to the cream but I think compounding cash cost (there is no ins coverage) would be MUCH higher and I get test CHEAP lol...

I may make the swap OR start mixing them... do less cream and less inj or go to EOD shots to save some stab wounds. BUT as good as I feel and blood work best it's ever been I hesitate to make ANY change.

I will see what my doc says next visit and get him to write the cream...maybe the pricing wont be as high as I think...but $20 for a bottle of test, then add the prop in ... lasts me SEVERAL months. But I keep hearing cream is superior by far, and I like the slight DHT elevation it causes, better libido and leaner/harder without adding other AAS? For sure interested in that! Thanks for the update!

 

[hemipower]

Just a FYI, I pay $45 for 35 days worth of cream w/out insurance. I used to pay $80 for 2x 10ml vials of Pfizer Testosterone Cypionate, so yes cream is more expensive. If you feel and look great on injections than why change, but If you like expirementing it can't hurt to try.

Really...That's it? For some reason I figured 2-3x that as the only experience I have with topical of any sort was the packets of gel and that was SUPER costly monthly... around $300 a month if I recall...and that was like 15 years ago lol

Hmm I was going to do a blended one with test and I think vit D and dhea... And yeah I love experimenting and think if something can be made even better then why not? I will have the doc write that and I will try EOD shots to keep a baseline and then cream daily AM...

 

[szority]

Really...That's it? For some reason I figured 2-3x that as the only experience I have with topical of any sort was the packets of gel and that was SUPER costly monthly... around $300 a month if I recall...and that was like 15 years ago lol

Hmm I was going to do a blended one with test and I think vit D and dhea... And yeah I love experimenting and think if something can be made even better then why not? I will have the doc write that and I will try EOD shots to keep a baseline and then cream daily AM...

Yeah man, androgel is fucking expensive. I just called around the local compunding pharmacies, when asking your doc let him know the prescription needs to be specified as: 200mg/gm micronized testosterone in petravan base.

They may have to order the petravan to compound, or if they can't get petravan then any liposomal base cream will do

 

[hemipower]

Small update... likely I will try the cream soon BUT was doing 30mg EQ daily to heal some injuries and ~35mg test enanth daily... didn't feel so great after a while... dropped the EQ and a week later swapped to test prop and decided to introduce a LITTLE variability ... so 3 days a week I do 35mg prop and the other 4 days I do 25mg (alternating) and within two weeks feel GREAT. Libido is back up, full and strong in the gym, wake up ready to get after it in the morning!

I have always liked prop but avoided back in day as it was painful and a lot of added volume when doing a lot of test and other anabolics...but NOW low dosing for good, I think prop is VERY ideal...the blend with prop+enanth is good but so far prop solo is much better! Still no change to other variables ... nature throid 1gr am only, Metformin 500mg am+pm, cialis 10mg pre workout only (and another 10 if activities anticipated that evening) and then ipam/tesa 100mcg/1g before bed (which tesa is new...was always using CJC but doc said the tesa is MUCH better...we shall see). Simple, effective and minimal dosing.

 

[airman]

Lot's of claims of amazing physiques on these 1500 calorie diets, but as usual I see no pictures.

 

[jeroendebleser]

Lot's of claims of amazing physiques on these 1500 calorie diets, but as usual I see no pictures.

Different strokes for different folks I guess. I would wither away to a skeletor-like Auschwitz survivor in a matter of weeks if I ate only 1500 calories a day. I need at least 3500 to stay the same weight and to not be dieting.

This is not a diss at the guys doing it since I fully believe you can look great at a low bodyweight (alfresco is a great example) BUT they aren't big guys ofcourse. Again, not a diss at all, especially since what you guys are doing is so much more healthy than what us bigger guys are doing with the huge amounts of calories and PEDs.

If I didn't have bigorexia, I would definitely go that route as well.

 

[hemipower]

I don't personally think my physique is amazing... It's good/ok but I used to compete so what I am NOW doesn't hold a candle to that version of me. But also have a couple jobs now and spend more time adulting than I'd like to...so I'm in maintain as much as I can mode now...and try to stop getting INJURED

Honestly I have been too low calorie wise... I bumped up some and feel better, more full etc but still pretty low. I'd bet you'd be surprised that to MAINTAIN and be fairly lean you really don't need a lot (of AAS either). And no, I am NOT big anymore. Years ago on the 3500-4000 calories EVERY day, lift heavy, and taking 1g total weight or more most of the year I was 250 lbs and ox strong.

At 220-225 lbs doing 2600-3000 on fed days and fasting on days (I don't train, job is non labor) getting about 1000-1200 I'm notably feeling better. But this thread and this pursuit is about getting the most out of the least... peds,diet and training. Healthier and more efficient being the GOALS now. LOW dosing done daily, intermittent fasting and training only 3 days a week sometimes 4.

 

[szority]

I actually went off the cream myself and switched to prop. I loved cream, but unfortunately I had to apply in the morning and I work in the mining industry, so I'm on my feet for 12 hour shifts. I think the cream was rubbing off on my clothing as I was applying it upon waking in the morning before heading to work. My levels were all over. I tried to apply cream at nights before bed, but the energy is insane for me on that stuff. I would be too wired to sleep. I'm using prop myself now at 35mg a day and love the stuff. Way more energy for me than long esther ED injections. On cream I felt the best hands down, I just wish I could apply the stuff at night so it's no rubbing off on my clothing. I'm using thegoldline's prop and am very impressed, there's no pip whatsoever, MCT oil too so it's quick to load in a pin. If you like prop man, I'm sure you'll love the creams. I'm also rehabbing a shoulder injury, going to give the EQ a try like you mentioned. I haven't messed with it in years, but EQ was always a favorite of mine as my vascularity after a week was insane haha

 

[airman]

Different strokes for different folks I guess. I would wither away to a skeletor-like Auschwitz survivor in a matter of weeks if I ate only 1500 calories a day. I need at least 3500 to stay the same weight and to not be dieting.

This is not a diss at the guys doing it since I fully believe you can look great at a low bodyweight (alfresco is a great example) BUT they aren't big guys ofcourse. Again, not a diss at all, especially since what you guys are doing is so much more healthy than what us bigger guys are doing with the huge amounts of calories and PEDs.

If I didn't have bigorexia, I would definitely go that route as well.

Yeah, I did not mean for it to come off as a diss (maybe partly), just that over the years, I've seen lots of claims about various diets, protocols, workouts with no real proof to back it up. No before or afters. And when I was younger, and more gullible, I would actually believe the bs... GH15 in his early years comes to mind.

But overall it wasn't a diss. Just would love to see a pic comparison of "this is me last year maintaining at 3500 calories and this me now eating 1500". Then I can see, ok this looks interesting, or I could think "good for him that he thinks he looks good, healthy etc.. but looks to me like he is delusional lol". At least I could form a proper opinion (with a grain of salt, since there is always the possibility of lying about the pics... which actually makes me sad thinking about how jaded we have all become and there is zero trust on the net)

And you're right, I think that would happen to a lot of guys. I would be dying and look like a stick on 1500 calories. And no matter what people claim, if you are over 200lbs, your maintenance level should be much higher than 1500 calories. I know low calorie diets are supposed to be healthier, extend life, but I think there is should be a median there, and those maintaining on 1500 calories have completely crashed their metabolism.

I don't personally think my physique is amazing... It's good/ok but I used to compete so what I am NOW doesn't hold a candle to that version of me. But also have a couple jobs now and spend more time adulting than I'd like to...so I'm in maintain as much as I can mode now...and try to stop getting INJURED

Honestly I have been too low calorie wise... I bumped up some and feel better, more full etc but still pretty low. I'd bet you'd be surprised that to MAINTAIN and be fairly lean you really don't need a lot (of AAS either). And no, I am NOT big anymore. Years ago on the 3500-4000 calories EVERY day, lift heavy, and taking 1g total weight or more most of the year I was 250 lbs and ox strong.

At 220-225 lbs doing 2600-3000 on fed days and fasting on days (I don't train, job is non labor) getting about 1000-1200 I'm notably feeling better. But this thread and this pursuit is about getting the most out of the least... peds,diet and training. Healthier and more efficient being the GOALS now. LOW dosing done daily, intermittent fasting and training only 3 days a week sometimes 4.

Yeah I mentioned above, I didn't mean to call you out (sounded like that), just this is a bodybuilding forum, and what I meant by amazing physique was I wanted to see the physique you are happy with (should have worded it better). Just got frustrated over the years with lots of people claiming stuff but not really posting up results.

I understand what you are doing, and it's good that you're happy with how it's working for you. Not sure how tall you are, but at 220 to 225 is pretty big for most people at 10 - 12% bf. The last 8 weeks, I was on a legit trt cruise (150mg) and maintained 255lbs at around 10 to 12 bf. Not claiming to be big, I'm about 6'5" so 255 is nothing impressive on me. This was done eating around 5000 calories per day. If I dropped my calories to even 3000, I would be 6 to 7% in a matter of maybe 5 weeks (would just need to drop down to 240), with no other changes required (no drugs, no cardio). If I dropped to below 2000, I would look horrible. Unless I completely crashed my metabolism, I could never survive on 1500 calories a day, and while I know lower calories are better for your body, I don't think it should be done at the price of your metabolism. If I wanted to maintain not push, maybe 3000 to 3500 a day would be good for me.

So I guess I'm just trying to play devils advocate here, and get out the point of view, that this might not be suitable for everyone's body type. I know I haven't been there (well actually I have, when I stupidly dieted for the first time, and worried more about the scale than look, and pretty much crashed my metabolism by being too aggressive), but eating 1500 calories or fasting for 20 hours a day, does not sound like a fun lifestyle for me. Much rather just eat "normal". Have 3 or 4 meals a day, reasonable calories, and live like a 'normal person' (if I ever come to that point). Cause the fasting, extremely low calories with refeeds is not normal in my opinion. It's trading one extreme for another.

 

[szority]

Yeah, I did not mean for it to come off as a diss (maybe partly), just that over the years, I've seen lots of claims about various diets, protocols, workouts with no real proof to back it up. No before or afters. And when I was younger, and more gullible, I would actually believe the bs... GH15 in his early years comes to mind.

But overall it wasn't a diss. Just would love to see a pic comparison of "this is me last year maintaining at 3500 calories and this me now eating 1500". Then I can see, ok this looks interesting, or I could think "good for him that he thinks he looks good, healthy etc.. but looks to me like he is delusional lol". At least I could form a proper opinion (with a grain of salt, since there is always the possibility of lying about the pics... which actually makes me sad thinking about how jaded we have all become and there is zero trust on the net)

And you're right, I think that would happen to a lot of guys. I would be dying and look like a stick on 1500 calories. And no matter what people claim, if you are over 200lbs, your maintenance level should be much higher than 1500 calories. I know low calorie diets are supposed to be healthier, extend life, but I think there is should be a median there, and those maintaining on 1500 calories have completely crashed their metabolism.



Yeah I mentioned above, I didn't mean to call you out (sounded like that), just this is a bodybuilding forum, and what I meant by amazing physique was I wanted to see the physique you are happy with (should have worded it better). Just got frustrated over the years with lots of people claiming stuff but not really posting up results.

I understand what you are doing, and it's good that you're happy with how it's working for you. Not sure how tall you are, but at 220 to 225 is pretty big for most people at 10 - 12% bf. The last 8 weeks, I was on a legit trt cruise (150mg) and maintained 255lbs at around 10 to 12 bf. Not claiming to be big, I'm about 6'5" so 255 is nothing impressive on me. This was done eating around 5000 calories per day. If I dropped my calories to even 3000, I would be 6 to 7% in a matter of maybe 5 weeks (would just need to drop down to 240), with no other changes required (no drugs, no cardio). If I dropped to below 2000, I would look horrible. Unless I completely crashed my metabolism, I could never survive on 1500 calories a day, and while I know lower calories are better for your body, I don't think it should be done at the price of your metabolism. If I wanted to maintain not push, maybe 3000 to 3500 a day would be good for me.

So I guess I'm just trying to play devils advocate here, and get out the point of view, that this might not be suitable for everyone's body type. I know I haven't been there (well actually I have, when I stupidly dieted for the first time, and worried more about the scale than look, and pretty much crashed my metabolism by being too aggressive), but eating 1500 calories or fasting for 20 hours a day, does not sound like a fun lifestyle for me. Much rather just eat "normal". Have 3 or 4 meals a day, reasonable calories, and live like a 'normal person' (if I ever come to that point). Cause the fasting, extremely low calories with refeeds is not normal in my opinion. It's trading one extreme for another.

Can't speak for hemi, but I think he's said in the past he follows a diet similiar to the metabolic blowtorch diet from Jay Campbell. That diet people only fast on days they don't train and are in a caloric deficit. On training days they eat substantially more

 

[hemipower]

Yes I do fasting similar to Metabolic Blowtorch recommendations... so half the time I am low and then training days about double that calorie wise.

And I am 5'11" and 225 at 10-11% (I was 220 at 8% last I tested and now 225ish so I am assuming 10% and mirror roughly verifies that), so nope, not huge by our standards. My largest was 251 lbs and ~15% bf and I was not happy at that size... strong and etc but I was eating constantly. Holding water. Protein shakes, giant meals over and over... running a total weight of about 1000-1200mg a week all combined which isn't a ton but isn't ideal for health and longevity obviously either. SO I have since scaled back on all things... weight lifted, food intake, drug total weight (now I remain sub 500mg total weight UNLESS talking about primo then 600-800 total), even training frequency and I have kept say 90% of my muscle... Not bad in my book!

But everyone is different metabolically and has different needs (slightly) but if you remain on the essentials and your hormones are right (high normal test, gh, etc) then you won't shrivel to tiny proportions... If so it takes more than 3 years as that's how long I have been WAY backed off on all variables. Truthfully I reduced doses around 10 years ago...then the last 3 years fasting, plus I have had to reduce training frequency and heavy training due to injuries and just adulting getting harder...

 

[hemipower]

Yeah I mentioned above, I didn't mean to call you out (sounded like that), just this is a bodybuilding forum, and what I meant by amazing physique was I wanted to see the physique you are happy with (should have worded it better). Just got frustrated over the years with lots of people claiming stuff but not really posting up results.

I understand what you are doing, and it's good that you're happy with how it's working for you. Not sure how tall you are, but at 220 to 225 is pretty big for most people at 10 - 12% bf. The last 8 weeks, I was on a legit trt cruise (150mg) and maintained 255lbs at around 10 to 12 bf. Not claiming to be big, I'm about 6'5" so 255 is nothing impressive on me. This was done eating around 5000 calories per day. If I dropped my calories to even 3000, I would be 6 to 7% in a matter of maybe 5 weeks (would just need to drop down to 240), with no other changes required (no drugs, no cardio). If I dropped to below 2000, I would look horrible. Unless I completely crashed my metabolism, I could never survive on 1500 calories a day, and while I know lower calories are better for your body, I don't think it should be done at the price of your metabolism. If I wanted to maintain not push, maybe 3000 to 3500 a day would be good for me.

So I guess I'm just trying to play devils advocate here, and get out the point of view, that this might not be suitable for everyone's body type. I know I haven't been there (well actually I have, when I stupidly dieted for the first time, and worried more about the scale than look, and pretty much crashed my metabolism by being too aggressive), but eating 1500 calories or fasting for 20 hours a day, does not sound like a fun lifestyle for me. Much rather just eat "normal". Have 3 or 4 meals a day, reasonable calories, and live like a 'normal person' (if I ever come to that point). Cause the fasting, extremely low calories with refeeds is not normal in my opinion. It's trading one extreme for another.

And I didn't take offense or even feel called out ... this is the internet after all lol.

But in addition to what I said in my last post, at half a foot taller and 30ish lbs heavier it would take more calories to keep you sustained... my 3000 training/fed days and 1500ish fasted days to you would be more like 3500 and 2000. Then your average is 2750. If you look at calories "as your body does" then it's just fuel. So take a week at 3000 x 4 days and 1500 x 3 days is 16500 cal a week or about 2400 a day average for me...at 225 that holds me together... on yours just figure the same 4/3 split trained days and fasted and works out to 20,000 calories and 2900ish a day. All ROUGH numbers but just saying, that's the comparison taking your stature into account over mine. Sure you'd get leaner but you wouldn't waste away on test only even.

I DO believe that if I ONLY did the 1500 calories daily (all the time) that I'd slowly lose muscle (and my sanity lol). Feeding for activity seems to work pretty well for me, but it's not for everyone.

 

[Elvia1023]

Lot's of claims of amazing physiques on these 1500 calorie diets, but as usual I see no pictures.

More a quote to both of your posts but I just wanted to state I agree. Not for this individual thread but just in a general sense. For me I simply think it's a bodybuilding board so post your progress pic, training video, food pics etc. Everyone has pics on Facebook, IG etc and that is to simply show (and sometimes prove) who they are. Guys post things like this is an AAS board so I can't but that is utter crap. I rep for an AAS seller and have my pics posted all of this website. No one is going to get in trouble for posting a progress pic in their log or thread about their dieting/training approach. This is not to call anyone out at all as who cares but I just find it ridiculous guys will post logs and won't even include pics. Guys will say they got the more ridiculous results using x product and don't show it. If someone is following a very unusual plan (diet, training etc) and states they feel and look good then post your pic. I couldn't care less if someone posted a pic and they didn't look amazing. I have posted some fucking terrible pics on here before Just be open so I can at least see what you look like. I don't judge someones knowledge on their pic. Although at the same time I can tell if someone is a bullshitter from their pics.

 

[Tomgrass]

For me finding this forum was a godsend. I built my base which in off-season was 260 lbs at 6 foot on grams of gear. Later I realised that I am not progressing anymore. So I had to decide what next. Ideally I found Emeric post on daily dosage and by trial and errors I found that my sweet spot is 25mg daily of test and a little primo - around 200 mg week. That allows me to hold around 97-98 kg where I feel amazing. I am not huge anymore but next July I will be 40 years old so chasing size game is not worth it anymore. If in mood I will add 25mg proviron or 10mg mast day. My target is to look lean athletic. I am around 8-%bf which for me is much much better then being super shredded or bulked. Middle ground is perfect. I am fed up with sides of eq tren anadrol dbol and trying to find dose of AI. With 25mg test daily I am mentally great focused confident but not arrogant. Diet wise high carb around 300 400 low fat 40-70 protein around 200. I am not using scale just eyeball everything. After 20 years of lifting and 9years on gear I know what my body needs. I was ecto as a kid later metabolism slowed down a bit but still OK. I think that this approach now is great but building that all mass was hell of a game. I am glad that I can get reward in sense of maintaining great physique year round on nearly nothing compare to my old cycles and diets. But this years of effort was great fun. I competed few times and I feel that I lost fun and I dont need to prove anything to anyone. BB is very obsessive sport so it is also big relief that I do not have to think about how my next cycle gonna looks like. If I could turn back time I would avoid doses from the past and go into this low doses much earlier. I still like to use supps and have fun testing new protocols like more eaa instead proteins to find my best version of everything. That part of me will never die but who does not want to improve in world of bodybuilding, at the end we all are a little bit crazy

 

[hemipower]

For me finding this forum was a godsend. I built my base which in off-season was 260 lbs at 6 foot on grams of gear. Later I realised that I am not progressing anymore. So I had to decide what next. Ideally I found Emeric post on daily dosage and by trial and errors I found that my sweet spot is 25mg daily of test and a little primo - around 200 mg week. That allows me to hold around 97-98 kg where I feel amazing. I am not huge anymore but next July I will be 40 years old so chasing size game is not worth it anymore. If in mood I will add 25mg proviron or 10mg mast day. My target is to look lean athletic. I am around 8-%bf which for me is much much better then being super shredded or bulked. Middle ground is perfect. I am fed up with sides of eq tren anadrol dbol and trying to find dose of AI. With 25mg test daily I am mentally great focused confident but not arrogant. Diet wise high carb around 300 400 low fat 40-70 protein around 200. I am not using scale just eyeball everything. After 20 years of lifting and 9years on gear I know what my body needs. I was ecto as a kid later metabolism slowed down a bit but still OK. I think that this approach now is great but building that all mass was hell of a game. I am glad that I can get reward in sense of maintaining great physique year round on nearly nothing compare to my old cycles and diets. But this years of effort was great fun. I competed few times and I feel that I lost fun and I dont need to prove anything to anyone. BB is very obsessive sport so it is also big relief that I do not have to think about how my next cycle gonna looks like. If I could turn back time I would avoid doses from the past and go into this low doses much earlier. I still like to use supps and have fun testing new protocols like more eaa instead proteins to find my best version of everything. That part of me will never die but who does not want to improve in world of bodybuilding, at the end we all are a little bit crazy

Verbatim what I created this post for and sounds about like my story. Did the competition thing and high dose/extreme for a few years, realized I won't be Mr Olympia even after winning a couple of my shows...and decided to back WAY off and figure out, what gave the best "bang for the buck" or what is the least I can take and still get decent benefits without the side effects. If I could go back...I too would skip the crazy high dose years and MUCH more slowly grow into the future...avoid most of my damn injuries from cranking it way up. It did take me over a decade to get all the way down to where I am, as I believed I could NOT maintain 225ish lbs on ANYTHING less than 600mg total weight...since I built it on 1200-1500mg total weight I considered 600 low. But every few years I'd step down... well...how about 500? Still good! How about 400? STILL GOOD! So currently I set my ceiling at 400 for "blasts" and usually hover around 300 total test plus one anabolic... on less test when on others, etc. Just test cruise is usually around 20-30mg daily...

I do blood work twice a year PLUS anytime I feel off...most of what I do is script/pharm or from guaranteed sponsors (enough not know if it's real, or what it is or the actual dosage). Way happier. Spend way less money and feel better. Instead of 250 lbs "offseason" when I relax diet and training I kinda work up to about 230s now and summertime lean 215-220 at 8-9% which at 5'10" isn't bad. NO it's not big by our standards but I am good with it for only having to train 3x a week and eat WAY less.

I too still try new supps and like EAA and carb intra workout...and I like to switch up what I take a LITTLE also and see how it goes. Last summer I tried tren again for the first time in MANY years... parabolan specifically. And to my surprise, NO sides and made a very noticeable difference. 10mg a day, month 1 and could tell I was on it but not impressed (obviously longer ester was not even at peak levels for ~ 2 weeks) but at 20mg a day I was very pleased... can't find real para so this year will attempt the same with tren ace/enan blend and take a little less maybe 15 daily to account for the lighter ester weight/more active hormone. I HATE the trendigestion and night sweats, paranoia/anxiety.... no thanks. From a health perspective I really only like REAL primo, var, eq and now I even consider tren ok if it's LOW dose para for sure...not certain about the ace/enan yet.