gh insulin

[BIG1512]

I can't pull up Datbtru article on this on my phone. Cam someone give me the link? Seems like he said optimal dose is 4 to 6ius of insulin?

 

[BigTex]

I can't pull up Datbtru article on this on my phone. Cam someone give me the link? Seems like he said optimal dose is 4 to 6ius of insulin?

While I haven't been there in maybe 3-4 years, I was told my a current member that the site was closed due to DAT being terminally ill.

I remember this 6iu statement was based on comments Dr. Crisler made righ here on PM years back.

Dr. Crisler said in a discussion {PM} after DAT posted his comments on a research study discussion which focused on the need for insulin to increase GH-receptors. "In other words insulin increases GH-receptor synthesis. However at some point the amount of insulin that is administered begins to have a negative consequence. This negative consequence is that higher amounts of insulin will start to inhibit the birth of those newly created GH-receptors":

http://www.professionalmuscle.com/f...c-1295-ghrp-6-basic-guides-27.html#post510608

Dr Cryler said:

So to summarize insulin increases the synthesis of GH-receptors which will be available to bind to the GH ligands. This is good. At some point though high levels of insulin will stop those newly created receptors from making their way to the cell surface. This is bad.

So I undertook to calculate the point where insulin would shift from being a positive to a negative. My conclusion:

* Therefore the point at which the amount of insulin in plasma becomes a negative rather then a positive is approximately 7.5 to 9 IUs.

So to arrive at a net benefit an insulin amount below that threshold point such as 5-6 ius is desirable

In addition Dr. Crisler underscores the point that insulin at moderate dose will not interfere with IGF-1 binding to a receptor..

DAT went on to say: "The second point was that larger amounts of insulin (above 5 - 6iu) are very much beneficial it is just that during the time when GH-receptors pop out to the surface of the cell you will be inhibiting some of that if you use higher insulin amounts. BUT even if you said "screw it I want to use 10, 15iu of insulin during that time" you may have a net benefit to tissue accrual because of all the other things that insulin contributes.The final point is to see how testosterone, insulin, GH & IGF-1 and the IGF-1/IGFBP3, amino acid pool, etc. work together to create anabolism."


I do know a pretty good BB who does the following split:

PreWO insulin use:
10iu: 50g C PreWO/50g C during/50g C PWO
15iu: 75g C PreWO/75g C during/75g C PWO
20iu: 100g C PreWO/100g C during/100g C PWO

PWO insulin use:
10iu: 50g C PWO/50g C 45mins PWO
15iu: 75g C PWO/75g C 45mins PWO
20iu: 100 C PWO/100g C 45mins PWO

 

[warlock]

While I haven't been there in maybe 3-4 years, I was told my a current member that the site was closed due to DAT being terminally ill.

I remember this 6iu statement was based on comments Dr. Crisler made righ here on PM years back.

Dr. Crisler said in a discussion {PM} after DAT posted his comments on a research study discussion which focused on the need for insulin to increase GH-receptors. "In other words insulin increases GH-receptor synthesis. However at some point the amount of insulin that is administered begins to have a negative consequence. This negative consequence is that higher amounts of insulin will start to inhibit the birth of those newly created GH-receptors":

http://www.professionalmuscle.com/f...c-1295-ghrp-6-basic-guides-27.html#post510608

Dr Cryler said:


DAT went on to say: "The second point was that larger amounts of insulin (above 5 - 6iu) are very much beneficial it is just that during the time when GH-receptors pop out to the surface of the cell you will be inhibiting some of that if you use higher insulin amounts. BUT even if you said "screw it I want to use 10, 15iu of insulin during that time" you may have a net benefit to tissue accrual because of all the other things that insulin contributes.The final point is to see how testosterone, insulin, GH & IGF-1 and the IGF-1/IGFBP3, amino acid pool, etc. work together to create anabolism."


I do know a pretty good BB who does the following split:

PreWO insulin use:
10iu: 50g C PreWO/50g C during/50g C PWO
15iu: 75g C PreWO/75g C during/75g C PWO
20iu: 100g C PreWO/100g C during/100g C PWO

PWO insulin use:
10iu: 50g C PWO/50g C 45mins PWO
15iu: 75g C PWO/75g C 45mins PWO
20iu: 100 C PWO/100g C 45mins PWO

Does he use both pre and post-workout insulin on the same day or either one or the other? Is that humalog?

 

[BigTex]

Does he use both pre and post-workout insulin on the same day or either one or the other? Is that humalog?

Same day. Yes humalog.

This is way too extreme for my tastes but I am going the 10iu pre/post.

 

[BigTex]

Let me explain this better, these three examples are a 1 time dose Pre/Post. I am not ready to try the larger amounts and instead am going like this:

PreWO insulin use:
10iu: 50g C PreWO/50g C during/50g C PWO

So 10iu before training with 50g of CHO and 50g of CHO during exercise

PWO insulin use:
10iu: 50g C PWO/50g C 45mins PWO

So when I get home from the gym, another 10iu and 50mg of CHO and then 45 minutes later 50 more grams of CHO.

I was advised advises to run 15g simple carbs per iu insulin (humalog) if taken PreWO or 10g C per iu if taken PWO. As you see this formula does 15g of CHO PreWO (150g) and 10g CHO PWO (100g).

Some get better results at higher amount of insulin which the other two would cover. I would advise anyone wanting to add insulin to start at 2-4iu and slowly work your way up to 8-10iu. The higher amounts are for much more experienced users but you have an idea how high some go.

 

[warlock]

Let me explain this better, these three examples are a 1 time dose Pre/Post. I am not ready to try the larger amounts and instead am going like this:

PreWO insulin use:
10iu: 50g C PreWO/50g C during/50g C PWO

So 10iu before training with 50g of CHO and 50g of CHO during exercise

PWO insulin use:
10iu: 50g C PWO/50g C 45mins PWO

So when I get home from the gym, another 10iu and 50mg of CHO and then 45 minutes later 50 more grams of CHO.

I was advised advises to run 15g simple carbs per iu insulin (humalog) if taken PreWO or 10g C per iu if taken PWO. As you see this formula does 15g of CHO PreWO (150g) and 10g CHO PWO (100g).

Some get better results at higher amount of insulin which the other two would cover. I would advise anyone wanting to add insulin to start at 2-4iu and slowly work your way up to 8-10iu. The higher amounts are for much more experienced users but you have an idea how high some go.

Thanks for taking the time to explain. I normally keep mine pre-workout and feel I can stay on it for a very long time without losing sensitivity. How long will you be running the pre and post-workout protocol? Will you be using any metformin or sensitizers with it?

What carb source will you use post-workout?

 

[BigTex]

Thanks for taking the time to explain. I normally keep mine pre-workout and feel I can stay on it for a very long time without losing sensitivity. How long will you be running the pre and post-workout protocol? Will you be using any metformin or sensitizers with it?

What carb source will you use post-workout?

No problem! Glad to find someone who is interested.

I usually go about 12 weeks on. I do throw in Metformin and think GW 1516 has helped avoid insulin resistance. I also do not use insulin on days that I don't train. As for the carb source, I use dextrose.

 

[warlock]

No problem! Glad to find someone who is interested.

I usually go about 12 weeks on. I do throw in Metformin and think GW 1516 has helped avoid insulin resistance. I also do not use insulin on days that I don't train. As for the carb source, I use dextrose.

I appreciate it brother. I used to run slin 3 times per day following protocols most were using then. But I now like the idea of using it around your workout time while keeping insulin sensitivity in check longer. I was not aware that GW 1516 could help with this. I've been wanting to use this compound mostly for endurance during my workouts as well as to maintain good HDL. The fact that some say it can cause cancer is what has made me reluctant.

I've been using slin pre-workout with good results, but might add in a post-workout dose as well to see if I can make some extra gains.

Let us know how it works out for you. It sounds like a solid plan.

 

[RamboStallone]

Nice discussion. One thing I question though is how long is the training session with a protocol like this? I use ghrp2 and humalog preworkout in the same syringe. I shoot then drink a whey/carb shake then head to the gym and train, don't use anything intra but my workouts are 1hr long of lifting. I thought about adding another ghrp2 and slin dose postworkout but it seems unnecessary since it wouldn't be more then 1.5-2hrs max after the initial dose. Therefore I felt that the preworkout dose was enough to cover this. Another reason was I take my metformin in the evenings after my postworkout meal, the timing seemed too close to add another slin shot even though I am using the sustained release metformin.

Thoughts? Is another postworkout dose of ghrp2 and humalog worth it?

 

[Thebigone]

Is Dr. Crisler only referring to insulin having a negative impact on natural igf/gh? Or is he referring to synthetic as well?

 

[BigTex]

Nice discussion. One thing I question though is how long is the training session with a protocol like this? I use ghrp2 and humalog preworkout in the same syringe. I shoot then drink a whey/carb shake then head to the gym and train, don't use anything intra but my workouts are 1hr long of lifting. I thought about adding another ghrp2 and slin dose postworkout but it seems unnecessary since it wouldn't be more then 1.5-2hrs max after the initial dose. Therefore I felt that the preworkout dose was enough to cover this. Another reason was I take my metformin in the evenings after my postworkout meal, the timing seemed too close to add another slin shot even though I am using the sustained release metformin.

Thoughts? Is another postworkout dose of ghrp2 and humalog worth it?

Right now I train about 45 minutes (not including cardio). I am going 6 days/week using Doggcrap. I will do this until Jan 1st and switch back to my regular training protocol going 5 day a week training 1 body part each day for about 1.5 hours. I believe strongly in the principle of variation of training.

I have only gone hypo 1-2 times in the past 4-5 year I have been using insulin. I prevent this by drinking carbs while I train. Never a problem. When I do my preworkout dose I also put HGH, insulin and IGF-1 (if I am using it) n the same syringe. Followed by a 50g when protein shake mixed with 50g dextrose.

After I train I usually do 20-30 minutes of cardio. Again, no problems.

Honestly, right now i feel no difference in the pre- dose or the combination of pre- and post. I will give it some time and see how it goes. I have put on quite a bit of weight since starting, but who knows what caused this. So I have no idea yet whether or not it is worth doing the two doses. People like Milos say it is the way to go but I realize we are all so very biologically different in our responses. I do know the pre- dose is very effective as it causes a huge pump when you train. There is scientific evidence now showing this pump is most likely responsible for hypertrophy.

 

[Smack]

Right now I train about 45 minutes (not including cardio). I am going 6 days/week using Doggcrap. I will do this until Jan 1st and switch back to my regular training protocol going 5 day a week training 1 body part each day for about 1.5 hours. I believe strongly in the principle of variation of training.

I have only gone hypo 1-2 times in the past 4-5 year I have been using insulin. I prevent this by drinking carbs while I train. Never a problem. When I do my preworkout dose I also put HGH, insulin and IGF-1 (if I am using it) n the same syringe. Followed by a 50g when protein shake mixed with 50g dextrose.

After I train I usually do 20-30 minutes of cardio. Again, no problems.

Honestly, right now i feel no difference in the pre- dose or the combination of pre- and post. I will give it some time and see how it goes. I have put on quite a bit of weight since starting, but who knows what caused this. So I have no idea yet whether or not it is worth doing the two doses. People like Milos say it is the way to go but I realize we are all so very biologically different in our responses. I do know the pre- dose is very effective as it causes a huge pump when you train. There is scientific evidence now showing this pump is most likely responsible for hypertrophy.

Meant to say it before but never have... I enjoy your posts. Post more

 

[2swole79]

No problem! Glad to find someone who is interested.

I usually go about 12 weeks on. I do throw in Metformin and think GW 1516 has helped avoid insulin resistance. I also do not use insulin on days that I don't train. As for the carb source, I use dextrose.

Tex, maybe it's just me, but it really seems that by only using slin on WO days and even more specifically peri-WO that I've been able to nearly avoid or at the least drastically reduce insulin resistance, anybody else notice this...It seems as soon as I ever started adding it in other times of the day or week slin resistance crept up on me much quicker.

 

[sub7percent]

For you guys using pre and post humalog, say 10iu each, would you say using humulin R 20iu pre is about the same given the extended half life.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[BigTex]

Meant to say it before but never have... I enjoy your posts. Post more

Thanks Smack! I used to post more but have gotten kind of turned off with all of the infomercials being allowed from sponsors.

Tex, maybe it's just me, but it really seems that by only using slin on WO days and even more specifically peri-WO that I've been able to nearly avoid or at the least drastically reduce insulin resistance, anybody else notice this...It seems as soon as I ever started adding it in other times of the day or week slin resistance crept up on me much quicker.

Could be. I also take GW 1516 which has been shown to help counter act this problem too. Exercise forces the body to utilize insulin pretty quickly and I feel the pre dose is very important in hypertrophy. The insulin forces water, amino acids and water into the cell causing cellular swelling/pump to the point the integrity of the cell is at risk. This in turn is thought to cause a type of non-functional/sarcoplasmic type hypertrophy.

 

[RamboStallone]

Thanks Smack! I used to post more but have gotten kind of turned off with all of the infomercials being allowed from sponsors.

Yea tell me about it. Then they come to "teach" us about all the cool drugs they sell [emoji19]

The insulin forces water, amino acids and water into the cell causing cellular swelling/pump to the point the integrity of the cell is at risk. This in turn is thought to cause a type of non-functional/sarcoplasmic type hypertrophy.

Exactly. The first part of that is the anti-catabolic part of slin, shuttling nutrients and protecting the cells....then comes the anabolic part, releasing MGF and using the additional nutrients to increase growth. This is why some used slin preworkout for the anti-catabolic effects and then igf/mgf postworkout for the anabolic effects, which is exactly what preworkout gh/slin also does by increasing intracellular MGF under stress (after training).

 

[Thebigone]

Yea tell me about it. Then they come to "teach" us about all the cool drugs they sell [emoji19]



Exactly. The first part of that is the anti-catabolic part of slin, shuttling nutrients and protecting the cells....then comes the anabolic part, releasing MGF and using the additional nutrients to increase growth. This is why some used slin preworkout for the anti-catabolic effects and then igf/mgf postworkout for the anabolic effects, which is exactly what preworkout gh/slin also does by increasing intracellular MGF under stress (after training).

Aren't you not supposed to use mgf at the same time as igf or is this broscience again?

 

[RamboStallone]

Aren't you not supposed to use mgf at the same time as igf or is this broscience again?

I was talking about boosting natural MGF. Don't want to confuse anyone.

As far as exogenous MGF, it seems as useless as tits on a bull lol. Honestly, I don't care for it but new info did state that it still attached to an extracellular receptor so it didn't compete with IGF like once thought. Natural MGF is intracellular, and we know exogenous hormones can't break the barrier and get within the cell. So why use exogenous MGF when you can use gh, gh peps, and slin to increase natural MGF. Then use exogenous igf for the recovery and growth.

To answer your question, no they do not interfere with each other like once thought.

 

[BigTex]

I was talking about boosting natural MGF. Don't want to confuse anyone.

As far as exogenous MGF, it seems as useless as tits on a bull lol. Honestly, I don't care for it but new info did state that it still attached to an extracellular receptor so it didn't compete with IGF like once thought. Natural MGF is intracellular, and we know exogenous hormones can't break the barrier and get within the cell. So why use exogenous MGF when you can use gh, gh peps, and slin to increase natural MGF. Then use exogenous igf for the recovery and growth.

To answer your question, no they do not interfere with each other like once thought.

MGF is produced as a result of stress to the muscle and is thought to help make repairs. It stays elevated for a few days before reaching baseline. I like to use PEG MGF maybe 1-3 hours after training or even the next morning.

 

[RamboStallone]

MGF is produced as a result of stress to the muscle and is thought to help make repairs. It stays elevated for a few days before reaching baseline. I like to use PEG MGF maybe 1-3 hours after training or even the next morning.

Exactly why we are suggesting gh and slin during training, to boost that natural release after stressing the muscle during training. Optimizing this time of day with these hormones leads to great results as you already know and have experienced yourself. Don't get me wrong, I didn't say exogenous MGF doesn't work. I would choose PEG MGF if I were to use it as well. I just feel like I rather spend my money on other things first.