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Gotgame on Synthol Use

MKSuccess500

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Gotgame I hope you don't mind me referencing our conversation here. I know you've mentioned before that you prefer talking on the open forums rather than private messages because more people can benefit from them.


In our conversation GG said he's not a fan of synthol because there is an increased risk of muscle tears and tendon tears. It seems there is also a risk of pulmonary embolism as well.

Something we never really hear about is the following though.

Well lets say you hurt your shoulder and now you get a shoulder MRI, or you are in an accident and you break your arm and get a CT or X ray.... or later on it life if you ever had cancer and you get a PET scan... that area is gonna show up VERY abnormal on imaging and you can't just assuming it from the injection as soft tissue sarcomas can look nearly identical and even on biopsy the tissue can look bad.. you put yourself in a bad place .

This happened about two years ago. Guy had a mass in his upper arm. He had imaging done and they were concerned but he figured it was just from his local injections. Turned out it was a sarcoma. Had to have the arm and the entire shoulder removed. Not saying the injections caused anything but it made things challenging

This is potentially very scary so I thought getting it out there and maybe having some discussion would be of benefit.

It makes me wonder....if sarcoma is a rare cancer (12,000 new cases per year compared to 250,000 new cases of breast cancer in just women per year)...is it possible that the this man had sarcoma caused by the site injections? Or is it truly just coincidence he got sarcoma precisely where he injected?

And does scar tissue from synthol look different than other scar tissue? I'm wondering how they could not tell the difference between fibrotic tissue and cancer.
 

MyNameIsJeff

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Gotgame I hope you don't mind me referencing our conversation here. I know you've mentioned before that you prefer talking on the open forums rather than private messages because more people can benefit from them.


In our conversation GG said he's not a fan of synthol because there is an increased risk of muscle tears and tendon tears. It seems there is also a risk of pulmonary embolism as well.

Something we never really hear about is the following though.



This is potentially very scary so I thought getting it out there and maybe having some discussion would be of benefit.

It makes me wonder....if sarcoma is a rare cancer (12,000 new cases per year compared to 250,000 new cases of breast cancer in just women per year)...is it possible that the this man had sarcoma caused by the site injections? Or is it truly just coincidence he got sarcoma precisely where he injected?

And does scar tissue from synthol look different than other scar tissue? I'm wondering how they could not tell the difference between fibrotic tissue and cancer.
Very very unlikely that a clean product such as Syntherol would cause sarcomas. But god knows what crappy carcinogenic motor oil some people inject, especially in the developing world.

In any case, using site injections to work on weak spots is probably healthier than upping the dosage of the other stuff bodybuilders use in an attempt to force the weak parts to grow.
 

MKSuccess500

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Very very unlikely that a clean product such as Syntherol would cause sarcomas. But god knows what crappy carcinogenic motor oil some people inject, especially in the developing world.

In any case, using site injections to work on weak spots is probably healthier than upping the dosage of the other stuff bodybuilders use in an attempt to force the weak parts to grow.

GG didn't mention what the guy was injecting so I'm not sure

I'm just confused as to how scar tissue could possible be mistaken for cancer. Tons of people have scar tissue from injuries and the like, so does the fibrosis from synthol look different than normal scar tissue from injuries?

I agree I'd rather try some SEO rather than take higher doses of AAS which is why this is important to me and I'm sure others here as well. Hopefully GG can chime in and clarify a bit here. It seems like thousands of guys use SEO and don't have issues. Flex Wheeler is still full of the stuff and obviously has some scar tissue or something else strange going on with his arms but it hasn't seemed to cause an issue. Not that that means it couldn't cause an issue in someone else. I wish we had some more information.
 

xman280

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the scar from seo it s not seen on x-ray,even when it s that much and that hard, that you have to push very hard to get a 23g needle in, at least i havent seen mine and many other guys with a lot more added inches than me, claim the same....
 

gotgame

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I do not believe that site injection cause any sort of mutations. However sustained inflammation to an areas has been known predispose to cancer in other settings.


SEO produces much more significant long term radiological findings then lower volume injections which are either from the pharmacy or compounded well (they shouldnt be hurting much)


ON MRI fibrosis and some cancers have low ish T2 signal like say MFH ( PUS) so it can be confusion. Also ive seen a handful of SEO users come in with what i believe to be myositis ossificans. Problem is some types of osteosarcs can look similar and if i biopsy it it can come back as osteosarc when its not.

Just something to think about. With respect to the guy who had to have a radical wide margin resection. He had the sarcoma in his proximal biceps. I didnt get invovled until he came back but on initial imaging it was pretty clear it was a sarcoma but the patient figured it was just from his injections and let it go. When he came back it was so extensive that they had to remove his proximal humerus and part of his glenoid. I dont know what happened after that.
 

xman280

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some type of chronic inflammation should show increasing levels of leukocytes tho
 

machinemind

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Even as technology in imaging makes leaps and bounds, a radiologist would hedge no matter what lol.

Beside that, as prevalent as "tren cough" is I can't imagine how fatty emboli are not more prevalent in the sport. My thinking is that they are largely subclinical, and effect you in ways you would never expect, subtly, and long term.
 

xman280

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anything is possibe when u put foreign bodies in ur body. PMMA in regular ppl (not as much as Piana) have been found to have pieces of the polymer in different organs in the body , after autopsy - kidneys, liver, brain. Oil can cause pulmonary embolism technically months after the first injection or can never happen, look at the guys with tens of lbs of oil in their bodies, some of them are 50-60 y old, doing it all their lives....
 

gotgame

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Even as technology in imaging makes leaps and bounds, a radiologist would hedge no matter what lol.

Beside that, as prevalent as "tren cough" is I can't imagine how fatty emboli are not more prevalent in the sport. My thinking is that they are largely subclinical, and effect you in ways you would never expect, subtly, and long term.

;)

I try not to but sometimes ya have to. Especially since most people have no experience with the imaging findings of bodybuilders abusing AAS, SEO and other stuff.

If nothing else I can at least say i put to rest the whole discussion of abdominal distension in bber's with insulin/gh etc as being visceral fat accumulation and not organ growth lol
 

machinemind

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;)

I try not to but sometimes ya have to. Especially since most people have no experience with the imaging findings of bodybuilders abusing AAS, SEO and other stuff.

If nothing else I can at least say i put to rest the whole discussion of abdominal distension in bber's with insulin/gh etc as being visceral fat accumulation and not organ growth lol

You know I had to say it :D
 

Elvia1023

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I know many people who inject huge amounts of syntherol and they never have issues. Now if some guy wants to put in 50ml at a time of whatever oil he can find then sure I can see issues but not the ones stated in this thread. The same for guys who want to site inject 10ml per day of aas with tonnes of solvents added. Now sensible usage of a trusted pharm made brand like syntherol I think is much safer than guys adding in another gram of aas for example. It's about picking what works for you and of course choosing trusted brands that have a proven track record of not fucking people up.
 

MKSuccess500

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the scar from seo it s not seen on x-ray,even when it s that much and that hard, that you have to push very hard to get a 23g needle in, at least i havent seen mine and many other guys with a lot more added inches than me, claim the same....

So how much synthol have you used? Are you saying you've had scans of the body parts you've used them on and the doctors couldn't see anything abnormal?

With respect to the guy who had to have a radical wide margin resection. He had the sarcoma in his proximal biceps. I didnt get invovled until he came back but on initial imaging it was pretty clear it was a sarcoma but the patient figured it was just from his injections and let it go. When he came back it was so extensive that they had to remove his proximal humerus and part of his glenoid. I dont know what happened after that.

You mentioned they can look very similar, but here you're saying it was pretty clear it was a sarcoma (as opposed to being from SEO), so how are you making that judgment call? As in what made it obvious it was a sarcoma and not from his injections?

It's a very sad story. Do you know if the other doctors tried to convince him that it was a sarcoma?
 

MKSuccess500

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Even as technology in imaging makes leaps and bounds, a radiologist would hedge no matter what lol.

Beside that, as prevalent as "tren cough" is I can't imagine how fatty emboli are not more prevalent in the sport. My thinking is that they are largely subclinical, and effect you in ways you would never expect, subtly, and long term.

What kind of subtle long term ways do you think they are affecting people? I recall GG saying he too thought people were probably getting some very small emboli but that they would just be broken up in the lungs.

I've definitely aspirated blood many times so I'm sure plenty of users are injecting at least small amounts into their veins

anything is possibe when u put foreign bodies in ur body. PMMA in regular ppl (not as much as Piana) have been found to have pieces of the polymer in different organs in the body , after autopsy - kidneys, liver, brain. Oil can cause pulmonary embolism technically months after the first injection or can never happen, look at the guys with tens of lbs of oil in their bodies, some of them are 50-60 y old, doing it all their lives....

I guess that's part of what I don't understand. In theory someone could get a pulmonary embolism months after injecting and die? But then you've got literally thousands of guys injections gallons (literally) of this stuff over years and I can't think of one time I've heard of a major issue from SEO. Someone please chime in if they have stories but I just haven't heard of it except for GGs recent diagnostic concern. Like if these small emboli are happening why don't we hear about issues from it? Or maybe they're out there and we just don't know.
 
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MKSuccess500

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I know many people who inject huge amounts of syntherol and they never have issues. Now if some guy wants to put in 50ml at a time of whatever oil he can find then sure I can see issues but not the ones stated in this thread. The same for guys who want to site inject 10ml per day of aas with tonnes of solvents added. Now sensible usage of a trusted pharm made brand like syntherol I think is much safer than guys adding in another gram of aas for example. It's about picking what works for you and of course choosing trusted brands that have a proven track record of not fucking people up.

Have any of these guys you've known gotten scans done on the muscles they've used it for though?
 

gotgame

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So how much synthol have you used? Are you saying you've had scans of the body parts you've used them on and the doctors couldn't see anything abnormal?



You mentioned they can look very similar, but here you're saying it was pretty clear it was a sarcoma (as opposed to being from SEO), so how are you making that judgment call? As in what made it obvious it was a sarcoma and not from his injections?

It's a very sad story. Do you know if the other doctors tried to convince him that it was a sarcoma?

There are different types of sarcomas. Most have elevated T2 signal like that patients did. Fibrosis and other types of sarcomas have iso to low T2 signal and that creates a diagnostic dilema.
 

Elvia1023

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Have any of these guys you've known gotten scans done on the muscles they've used it for though?

I was going to add it's amazing those idiots on you-tube don't run into more issues. Maybe they do and we just don't know. But look at them that can't possibly be healthy. It's a world a part from sensible usage of a sterile product.

I am not too sure. It's not something I have ever asked them. Maybe others can chime in on that one. Although one factor is many inject many different things into body parts they use seo in. Meaning they may have site injected their arms (etc) with huge amounts of aas, hgh, lr3, slin, vitamins etc. So even if they did have scans we couldn't say what done what. Obviously everything would have a contributing factor but there would be many variables. Now if I ever have my calves scanned that would be different as that is just seo.
 

gotgame

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What kind of subtle long term ways do you think they are affecting people? I recall GG saying he too thought people were probably getting some very small emboli but that they would just be broken up in the lungs.

I've definitely aspirated blood many times so I'm sure plenty of users are injecting at least small amounts into their veins



I guess that's part of what I don't understand. In theory someone could get a pulmonary embolism months after injecting and die? But then you've got literally thousands of guys injections gallons (literally) of this stuff over years and I can't think of one time I've heard of a major issue from SEO. Someone please chime in if they have stories but I just haven't heard of it except for GGs recent diagnostic concern. Like if these small emboli are happening why don't we hear about issues from it? Or maybe they're out there and we just don't know.


It happens i imagine more so then its reported because lets say you inject and have an otherwise healthy heart and lungs your lungs "filter" it out and while you may get a small lung infarct you are otherwise ok.

Ive seen AAS user get endocarditis that destroyed his pulm valve. See another can sepsis. A guy on the boards died from dirty gear that caused osteo of his sacrum. I can go on and on. Im not against AAS use..im really not, its just I see all the issues when they occur.

For the most part you are much more likely to cause muscle tears and soft tissue issues then having a complication from a PE but it does happen.

This isnt anything new..i mean filter your gear with a 0.45 or smaller, i still recommend baking gear 2-3x with cooling between, and aspirating while injecting.
 

MKSuccess500

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There are different types of sarcomas. Most have elevated T2 signal like that patients did. Fibrosis and other types of sarcomas have iso to low T2 signal and that creates a diagnostic dilema.

I see. It's a shame someone couldn't convince him that the evidence was more clear it was cancerous.

I was going to add it's amazing those idiots on you-tube don't run into more issues. Maybe they do and we just don't know. But look at them that can't possibly be healthy. It's a world a part from sensible usage of a sterile product.

I am not too sure. It's not something I have ever asked them. Maybe others can chime in on that one. Although one factor is many inject many different things into body parts they use seo in. Meaning they may have site injected their arms (etc) with huge amounts of aas, hgh, lr3, slin, vitamins etc. So even if they did have scans we couldn't say what done what. Obviously everything would have a contributing factor but there would be many variables. Now if I ever have my calves scanned that would be different as that is just seo.

Please get a scan on your calves and report back :D we will start a GoFundMe for it
 

MKSuccess500

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It happens i imagine more so then its reported because lets say you inject and have an otherwise healthy heart and lungs your lungs "filter" it out and while you may get a small lung infarct you are otherwise ok.

Ive seen AAS user get endocarditis that destroyed his pulm valve. See another can sepsis. A guy on the boards died from dirty gear that caused osteo of his sacrum. I can go on and on. Im not against AAS use..im really not, its just I see all the issues when they occur.

For the most part you are much more likely to cause muscle tears and soft tissue issues then having a complication from a PE but it does happen.

This isnt anything new..i mean filter your gear with a 0.45 or smaller, i still recommend baking gear 2-3x with cooling between, and aspirating while injecting.

Have you seen any guys come in with a PE from their injections?

Regarding your second paragraph, sounds like those were all due to dirty gear, is that right?

I did get inflammation when using syntherol but I think maybe it was too much for a small muscle group. The area was a bit inflamed (warm and pink) after I got to the higher amounts (2ml per head per day) which went away shortly after I stopped using it. I kept a quarter inch on my arms though, do you think that's jut scar tissue then?

Sounds like you favor moderate AAS usage over SEO from what I can tell, would you agree with that statement? I think because we see so many real AAS issues I'm more scared of it, whereas I almost see sterile syntherol as "risk free" as far as systemic side effects.
 

gotgame

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Have you seen any guys come in with a PE from their injections?

Regarding your second paragraph, sounds like those were all due to dirty gear, is that right?

I did get inflammation when using syntherol but I think maybe it was too much for a small muscle group. The area was a bit inflamed (warm and pink) after I got to the higher amounts (2ml per head per day) which went away shortly after I stopped using it. I kept a quarter inch on my arms though, do you think that's jut scar tissue then?

Sounds like you favor moderate AAS usage over SEO from what I can tell, would you agree with that statement? I think because we see so many real AAS issues I'm more scared of it, whereas I almost see sterile syntherol as "risk free" as far as systemic side effects.


Very tough to tell if the PE is from the injection. in Theory it would have fat density from the oil but you get mixing artifact that it would be very hard to tell. I have seen lung infarcts in a few young patients who were using gear but i dont know if they were from direct oil embolus or from AAS induced hypercoag state.

In general I would favor moderate AAS usage over SEO, however in some circumstance i could make an arguement the other way. For health reasons some bber is off gear and wants to keep lipids normal and BP etc but just wants a little extra roundnesss to there delts or whatever. Then moderate SEO useage might be better in that situation if the choices were AAS usage vs SEO and doing neither wasnt an option.

its just important to understand what you are doing and the potential effects. Be aware and make an informed decision.
 

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