Growing delts

richiec · Jun 24, 2018

Pericles said:
Without manual testing you , your internal and external rotation of your shoulder should equal about 140 degrees. You probably lack external rotation because the internal side (pec minor, subscap) are tight. So development on your pec will take a hit on that side too.

Thanks man. What can be done if anything?

maldorf · Jun 24, 2018

Pericles said:
anyone who uses the reverse pec deck should watch this
How to Build Your Rear Delts (NOT REVERSE FLYS!) - YouTube

Great video, never tried those. It is similar though to doing bentover rows with dumbbells. My rear delts are always sore the day after doing rows. I didn't watch the whole video, but I bet you could do that with a low cable row too for really good tension.

Fit2Serve · Jun 24, 2018

Genetics

richiec said:
We all know that genetics will dictate the look of muscles, but not growth. That said, my delts are lacking imo.

I feel like it's mainly the lateral and rear delts that are lack luster. I do shoulders with chest (doing a MD workout program, not individualized)
I do lateral raises, rear delts on pec dec (20-30 reps) and smith machine overhead every once in a while. These are the main exercises off the top of my head

Anyone got any other shoulder movements to help stimulate growth? Have never had much success with them growing. TIA

Did Dennis Wolf EVER build his calfs bigger? Did Branch EVER get his forearms bigger? Did Tom Platz EVER get his upper body to equal his lower?

You can make your delts the best they can be but if you think you can make them a stand out body part if they arent already, then i think you will be dissappointed.
Not trying to be debbie downer just keep your perspective bout it.
-F2S

richiec · Jun 24, 2018

Fit2Serve said:
Did Dennis Wolf EVER build his calfs bigger? Did Branch EVER get his forearms bigger? Did Tom Platz EVER get his upper body to equal his lower?

You can make your delts the best they can be but if you think you can make them a stand out body part if they arent already, then i think you will be dissappointed.
Not trying to be debbie downer just keep your perspective bout it.
-F2S

Thanks for literally adding nothing to the thread. I'm well aware of limitations, but did the 3 guys you listed stop working on those body parts listed? No, imagine that.

It's not about making it a standout bodypart, but making it the best it can be within the genetic limitations

Fit2Serve · Jun 24, 2018

richiec said:
Thanks for literally adding nothing to the thread. I'm well aware of limitations, but did the 3 guys you listed stop working on those body parts listed? No, imagine that.

It's not about making it a standout bodypart, but making it the best it can be within the genetic limitations

sorry bro, didnt mean to piss you off. was trying to make sure ur expecations were realistic. i dont know you, but lots guys falsely hope and pray for weaker parts to catch up or whatever and like milos told me, "lagging parts will always be lagging parts unless using SEO"

if wanting to make em best they can be like you said above, i think the delts are a pretty simple muslce. laterals and presses is really all there is to choose from. i believe laterals being most effective to stimulate all 3 heads.

i would also use insulin pre workout on days you do delts but not on any other days. there is a chance this could bring em up. i have had some guys do that and they believed it helped.
-F2S

richiec · Jun 24, 2018

Fit2Serve said:
sorry bro, didnt mean to piss you off. was trying to make sure ur expecations were realistic. i dont know you, but lots guys falsely hope and pray for weaker parts to catch up or whatever and like milos told me, "lagging parts will always be lagging parts unless using SEO"

if wanting to make em best they can be like you said above, i think the delts are a pretty simple muslce. laterals and presses is really all there is to choose from. i believe laterals being most effective to stimulate all 3 heads.

i would also use insulin pre workout on days you do delts but not on any other days. there is a chance this could bring em up. i have had some guys do that and they believed it helped.
-F2S

Sorry man, we're 2 degrees above hell in Florida right now but that's no excuse.

My expectations are grounded. I'm missing half of my right thigh and the right side if my abs, so I'm not trying to get on stage or anything. Just trying to build a physique that is best for me while not loading up on drugs. Was just looking for any specific things guys have done to help with their shoulder development

Fit2Serve · Jun 24, 2018

richiec said:
Sorry man, we're 2 degrees above hell in Florida right now but that's no excuse.

My expectations are grounded. I'm missing half of my right thigh and the right side if my abs, so I'm not trying to get on stage or anything. Just trying to build a physique that is best for me while not loading up on drugs. Was just looking for any specific things guys have done to help with their shoulder development

Roger that, in Texas here sitting at 102!? i cant even go outside for 10 min without needing a dry shirt. suuuucks.

i been on this board for a bit, cant believe i didnt know bout those injuries or i'd def assume your expectations are straight!

Delts have always been my best bodypart but i think its genetic not really what i did for em. Def prioritize them. i always did laterals then presses. never messed with rear delt work.
I'd really give the slin a try on delt days. more nutrients should equal more growth or atleast more glycogen stored in em to fill em out! but slin aint for everyone. or for every diet...
-F2S

Pericles · Jun 25, 2018

Fit2Serve said:
sorry bro, didnt mean to piss you off. was trying to make sure ur expecations were realistic. i dont know you, but lots guys falsely hope and pray for weaker parts to catch up or whatever and like milos told me, "lagging parts will always be lagging parts unless using SEO"

if wanting to make em best they can be like you said above, i think the delts are a pretty simple muslce. laterals and presses is really all there is to choose from. i believe laterals being most effective to stimulate all 3 heads.

i would also use insulin pre workout on days you do delts but not on any other days. there is a chance this could bring em up. i have had some guys do that and they believed it helped.
-F2S

Lagging body parts do not always stay lagging if you train correctly. For example if you have a good chest genetically and need to bring delts up you adjust volume and frequency and bring delts up without making the chest overpower them. Needing seo is bullshit

Elvia1023 · Jun 25, 2018

Pericles said:
Lagging body parts do not always stay lagging if you train correctly. For example if you have a good chest genetically and need to bring delts up you adjust volume and frequency and bring delts up without making the chest overpower them. Needing seo is bullshit

Very true and I completely agree. Plus Richie doesn't need seo. But there is a reason many of the top pro's use it these days. Some lagging body parts will stay lagging no matter how well they are trained. But I agree 99% of the time improvements can be made by improving training. I put a lot of thougth into training but I also think some overthink things. But sure body parts can always be improved with specialized training and not by simply throwing weight around.

Someone's goals are also a big factor. Some goals are impossible to achieve with training alone as they are simply unnatural. In regards to delts if someone's goal was to have those crazy cannonball delts you see a lot then oil is needed for many (not all) people. Obviously high androgens can come into it as well. The amount of bb's I have seen recently with their delts loaded up is huge. It seems to be more popular now then ever. A guy who just won a big show had his lats and delts loaded up. Don't get me wrong I am not stating this is a positive thing as some guys go over the top. Some still look great but looking closely you see a lot of arms and delts loaded up and it soon becomes unproportional when compared to their forearm size (not many like to inject their forearms).

No real reason for this post as it has nothing to do with Richies thread but thought I would comment on the seo thing.

Richie when I am trying to improve anything I tend to follow the same rule and it applies now. If your not getting the results you want something needs to be changed. Sounds stupid and totally obvious but even though I know that it can be easy to fall into routine. But if I go the gym with a clear mindset before I step in that I will do something I have never done before and making it my no.1 goal it only helps. That could be pushing intensity with low volume or just completely destryoing your delts from every possible angle. Mike Arnold's post was spot on and how I do things basically covering all angles and just going for it. It would be cool to train delts with you.

Fit2Serve · Jun 25, 2018

i never said richie needs seo.

you dont think dennis wolf trained the hell out of his calves? you guys think he coulda made em bigger? lol

my original post in this thread was to make sure richie's expectations were logical. and they are! but i remember thinking i could get my back and chest to catch up with my delts, but i just got bigger everywehre so proportions stayed the same.

Elvia saying he can make gains. you wrote several seo threads lol. you should just train calves harder? or are they maybe possibly genetically tapped out?

Just sayin, in my entire time in bbing my proportions always stayed about dthe same. what milos was saying was shape and size is predetermined. once a muscle is maxed out i just dont think there is anything else one can do. Like Pericles said, you could lose size in chest so delts appear to b larger, but who wants to downsize chest...

i would prioritize the hell out of em. focus on laterals and upright rows. i feel presses target the front delt too much. i'd do those last. i'd also pin delts.
-F2S

alfresco · Jun 25, 2018

not trying to start a pissing contest . . . just the other side of the coin

Pericles said:
Anyone saying free weights are king here for delt growth is just flat out wrong. Constant tension and high reps with the right movements will give you the 3d look you want.
Examples

Face Pulls (palms in hammer grip position) 5x30
Cable Lateral Raise 4x30-40
Standing high to low cable reverse flies 5x30-40
(edit)
Delts will always respond better to higher reps as they are slower twitch.

Make most of your back movements palm down and focus on squeezing. YOU DO NOT NEED TO OVERHEAD PRESS, anyone saying you do has not trained these movements proper.

???

P,

If you take a look at the a large group of individuals that universally have
very well developed shoulders (not to mention arms, back, chest and
abs) that do not do what you described, you would need to look no further
than competitive gymnasts.

One could say, well . . . they are not as well developed as bodybuilders
but that argument holds zero water in my opinion. (I think they could
compete favorably if they chose to pursue that path.) What they do for
their shoulders are lots and lots of presses and dips. And while they do
zero overhead presses, they do a variety of handstand pushups
(a very important and overlooked exercise in a bodybuilders routine,
and are not, unfortunately, performed due to the strength and skill level
required) and a variety of other ‘movements’ that activate the shoulder
muscles.

I was part of the gymnastics team in college, though I was never good
enough to compete, I trained with them all the time. I did what they did
when I could

, saw what they did and it was nothing like what you see
in the video you attached to your post (deleted in this post).

After college, still being interested in gymnastics, I trained at a local,
private gymnastics club ran by husband and wife, both Olympic Gold
Medal winners. Occasionally of his Olympic Team members would show
up and train with us. We never did any free weight or machine exercises
(could very well be different now, I don’t know) only a boat load of
gymnastic movements, presses, dips, and chins and ‘floor movements’.
Both still had amazing shoulder development despite their competitive
days being well behind them.

I would jog over to the complex from where I lived and after a workout,
I could barely walk home and a weight workout at my local gym was
out of the question the following day. I was toasted. How these competitive
gymnasts train day in and day out for long periods of time is beyond me.

In closing, and in deference to your post, mostly handstand presses, chins
and dips . . . throw in some db laterals if you must (not necessary) and
presto, you have delts.

FYI, I continued to do handstand presses on a homemade device that
I designed and built. It gave me a pump that had to be experienced to
be believed. But sadly, I could only use it in the ‘home gym’ I put together
at the time many many years ago, and I have lost track of it. I did post
a sketch of it here some years ago, but I can’t seem to find a link to
it or find the original drawing. Sad because it really worked your shoulders
extremely well, and safely too.

Elvia1023 · Jun 25, 2018

Fit2Serve said:
i never said richie needs seo.

you dont think dennis wolf trained the hell out of his calves? you guys think he coulda made em bigger? lol

my original post in this thread was to make sure richie's expectations were logical. and they are! but i remember thinking i could get my back and chest to catch up with my delts, but i just got bigger everywehre so proportions stayed the same.

Elvia saying he can make gains. you wrote several seo threads lol. you should just train calves harder? or are they maybe possibly genetically tapped out?

Just sayin, in my entire time in bbing my proportions always stayed about dthe same. what milos was saying was shape and size is predetermined. once a muscle is maxed out i just dont think there is anything else one can do. Like Pericles said, you could lose size in chest so delts appear to b larger, but who wants to downsize chest...

i would prioritize the hell out of em. focus on laterals and upright rows. i feel presses target the front delt too much. i'd do those last. i'd also pin delts.
-F2S

I think you have misinterpreted my post. I wasn't actually replying to you and I actually agreed with everything you wrote. I didn't take your post as saying Richie should use seo at all. I was replying to Pericles writing "Needing seo is bullshit". I took that comment as a general statement for anyone with weaker shoulders and a stronger chest and that's why I replied. Everyone has an opinion and some are completely against seo in any manner which is fine. Although spot injecting gear is like seo so I never quite got their reasoning. I think the guys who overdo seo have given it a bad reputation but so many on here and in BB in general use it.

Obviously guys can use what they want. But I know Richie and I know he doesn't want to load up on drugs or inject himself daily with oil. Moreover his delts are not lagging in any way. He is very proportional and as mentioned earlier if he wants to be bigger he would need to do so all over or if he cut up even more he would look better. The same applies to everyone though.

I am sure if he played about with training he could improve overall delt development but it's not like they will suddenly transform whilst the rest of him stays the same. Everything improves and because his delts are not what I call lagging they will improve with the rest of him.

Now regarding me of course I am a big advocate of syntherol but I also know it's not needed in every situation. But sure if Richie ever thought fuck it I want huge delts then he could try it. I really did exhaust training calves but even if I didn't for a year of solid training the best I could hope for would be about 1/2 inch. I could do that in 4 weeks for my arms so I know calves are lagging for me genetically. I also have very long legs. Plus it's not even the size. There are guys with 16 inch calves and they look great. Mine were about 17 inches when I started and probably looked 12 in pics. Many would say syntherol was not needed for me but we are all adults and I was made up I tried it. I made more gains in my calves in 3 weeks on syntherol than I did abusing them for 5 years in the gym. Quite embarassing but it really shown me how lagging some bodyparts can be. I try not to train my traps too much as they would overpower everything so that is the opposite side of the spectrum for me.

Anyway we have got off track and this thread should not be about seo. Richie sorry for derailing the thread. I think people have posted some good stuff in here. I am actually gonna train delts myself now. I have an injured lower back so I will have to take it easy but if I was 100% I would be doing about 10 different exercises including heavy and lighter front and lateral raises plus presses. One of my fav finisher movements are cable straight bar front raises lying down on the seated cable row machine. Literally even the first weight should feel heavy due to the angle and resistance at the bottom.

Elvia1023 · Jun 25, 2018

I also agree about you alluding to the front getting hit with chest a lot so you don't need a lot of presses through the week. Now if intra nutrition, sleep, drugs etc etc are optimal guys can get away with more volume and what others would consider "overtraining". But you can't go wrong with all the basic lateral and rear movements that have been mentioned in this thread. Occasionally throw in some heavy presses if you want and well front raises etc or whatever he wants to do. Form on presses like any movement is vital especially for injury prevention. I also agree if you have a body part you want to improve the most you may as well put your drugs in there as well. Most importantly delts go first in any given day and take full priority.

Fit2Serve said:
i never said richie needs seo.

you dont think dennis wolf trained the hell out of his calves? you guys think he coulda made em bigger? lol

my original post in this thread was to make sure richie's expectations were logical. and they are! but i remember thinking i could get my back and chest to catch up with my delts, but i just got bigger everywehre so proportions stayed the same.

Elvia saying he can make gains. you wrote several seo threads lol. you should just train calves harder? or are they maybe possibly genetically tapped out?

Just sayin, in my entire time in bbing my proportions always stayed about dthe same. what milos was saying was shape and size is predetermined. once a muscle is maxed out i just dont think there is anything else one can do. Like Pericles said, you could lose size in chest so delts appear to b larger, but who wants to downsize chest...

i would prioritize the hell out of em. focus on laterals and upright rows. i feel presses target the front delt too much. i'd do those last. i'd also pin delts.
-F2S

richiec · Jun 25, 2018

All good Elvia, it's good to see different perspectives and approaches. I appreciate your kind words also and understanding my goals.

Pericles · Jun 25, 2018

alfresco said:
???

P,

If you take a look at the a large group of individuals that universally have
very well developed shoulders (not to mention arms, back, chest and
abs) that do not do what you described, you would need to look no further
than competitive gymnasts.

One could say, well . . . they are not as well developed as bodybuilders
but that argument holds zero water in my opinion. (I think they could
compete favorably if they chose to pursue that path.) What they do for
their shoulders are lots and lots of presses and dips. And while they do
zero overhead presses, they do a variety of handstand pushups
(a very important and overlooked exercise in a bodybuilders routine,
and are not, unfortunately, performed due to the strength and skill level
required) and a variety of other ‘movements’ that activate the shoulder
muscles.

I was part of the gymnastics team in college, though I was never good
enough to compete, I trained with them all the time. I did what they did
when I could , saw what they did and it was nothing like what you see
in the video you attached to your post (deleted in this post).

After college, still being interested in gymnastics, I trained at a local,
private gymnastics club ran by husband and wife, both Olympic Gold
Medal winners. Occasionally of his Olympic Team members would show
up and train with us. We never did any free weight or machine exercises
(could very well be different now, I don’t know) only a boat load of
gymnastic movements, presses, dips, and chins and ‘floor movements’.
Both still had amazing shoulder development despite their competitive
days being well behind them.

I would jog over to the complex from where I lived and after a workout,
I could barely walk home and a weight workout at my local gym was
out of the question the following day. I was toasted. How these competitive
gymnasts train day in and day out for long periods of time is beyond me.

In closing, and in deference to your post, mostly handstand presses, chins
and dips . . . throw in some db laterals if you must (not necessary) and
presto, you have delts.

FYI, I continued to do handstand presses on a homemade device that
I designed and built. It gave me a pump that had to be experienced to
be believed. But sadly, I could only use it in the ‘home gym’ I put together
at the time many many years ago, and I have lost track of it. I did post
a sketch of it here some years ago, but I can’t seem to find a link to
it or find the original drawing. Sad because it really worked your shoulders
extremely well, and safely too.

handstands are one of the worst movements for bodybuilders to due. Its close chain and put the wrist in TONS of extension. Also, your gymnasts all started at age 4 and 5, you're not taking into account all of the other movements off the bar and rings. You're also not taking into account that most of them are 5'5 and the average male is 5 inches higher. Did I mention the injury rate?

Pericles · Jun 25, 2018

Elvia1023 said:
I also agree about you alluding to the front getting hit with chest a lot so you don't need a lot of presses through the week. Now if intra nutrition, sleep, drugs etc etc are optimal guys can get away with more volume and what others would consider "overtraining". But you can't go wrong with all the basic lateral and rear movements that have been mentioned in this thread. Occasionally throw in some heavy presses if you want and well front raises etc or whatever he wants to do. Form on presses like any movement is vital especially for injury prevention. I also agree if you have a body part you want to improve the most you may as well put your drugs in there as well. Most importantly delts go first in any given day and take full priority.

How would putting your drugs into a lagging body part do anything but create more scar tissue? Wouldn't ever BBer have a giant ass if this was the coach? Most have underdeveloped glutes.

Pericles · Jun 25, 2018

richiec said:
Thanks man. What can be done if anything?

Look for an airrosti doctor in your area that lifts. You can do a provider search .

Pericles · Jun 25, 2018

alfresco said:
???

P,

If you take a look at the a large group of individuals that universally have
very well developed shoulders (not to mention arms, back, chest and
abs) that do not do what you described, you would need to look no further
than competitive gymnasts.

One could say, well . . . they are not as well developed as bodybuilders
but that argument holds zero water in my opinion. (I think they could
compete favorably if they chose to pursue that path.) What they do for
their shoulders are lots and lots of presses and dips. And while they do
zero overhead presses, they do a variety of handstand pushups
(a very important and overlooked exercise in a bodybuilders routine,
and are not, unfortunately, performed due to the strength and skill level
required) and a variety of other ‘movements’ that activate the shoulder
muscles.

I was part of the gymnastics team in college, though I was never good
enough to compete, I trained with them all the time. I did what they did
when I could , saw what they did and it was nothing like what you see
in the video you attached to your post (deleted in this post).

After college, still being interested in gymnastics, I trained at a local,
private gymnastics club ran by husband and wife, both Olympic Gold
Medal winners. Occasionally of his Olympic Team members would show
up and train with us. We never did any free weight or machine exercises
(could very well be different now, I don’t know) only a boat load of
gymnastic movements, presses, dips, and chins and ‘floor movements’.
Both still had amazing shoulder development despite their competitive
days being well behind them.

I would jog over to the complex from where I lived and after a workout,
I could barely walk home and a weight workout at my local gym was
out of the question the following day. I was toasted. How these competitive
gymnasts train day in and day out for long periods of time is beyond me.

In closing, and in deference to your post, mostly handstand presses, chins
and dips . . . throw in some db laterals if you must (not necessary) and
presto, you have delts.

FYI, I continued to do handstand presses on a homemade device that
I designed and built. It gave me a pump that had to be experienced to
be believed. But sadly, I could only use it in the ‘home gym’ I put together
at the time many many years ago, and I have lost track of it. I did post
a sketch of it here some years ago, but I can’t seem to find a link to
it or find the original drawing. Sad because it really worked your shoulders
extremely well, and safely too.

Did I even mention most bodybuilders can't go into full shoulder flexion anyway? You don't load areas that you can't get into those positions properly.

Mike Arnold · Jun 26, 2018

Pericles said:
anyone who uses the reverse pec deck should watch this
How to Build Your Rear Delts (NOT REVERSE FLYS!) - YouTube

The problem with doing rear delts on the reverse peck deck is that most people do them wrong. Done correctly, I have yet to find a better exercise for building mass in the rear delts.

The guy in the video mentions "peak contraction" a lot, as if being able to achieve it is the most important factor for growth. I do NOT believe that at all. If that were true exercises like triceps kick backs, concentration curls, leg extensions, etc, would be the most effective for growth. They are not.

I think the most effective exercises for overall muscle growth, in general, are those that place maximum tension on the target muscle in a stretched position.

The guy in the video is basically saying not to do peck deck rear laterals because they don't allow for a maximal peak contraction. I completely disagree. When it comes to packing on size, I would recommend peck deck rear laterals over that funky dumbbell exercise he demonstrated, any day of the week.

bg091593 · Jun 26, 2018

Mike Arnold said:
If you want massive delts, here is the simplified version:

1.) Learn how to properly do side and rear lateral raises.

2.) Get super strong on side and rear lateral raises.

3.) Get super strong on overhead presses.

Although accomplishing these things may be easier said than done, by the time you do achieve them, you will have monster delts...period. This formula never fails, just like 1 + 1 always equals 2.

You might be thinking "shouldn't we be using the same formula (progressive resistance and proper technique) for every bodypart"? To that I would say yes. However, you might be surprised at how many people fail to employ these principles when it comes to their side and rear delts. Now, you will frequently see people doing heavy overhead presses...and while overhead movements are important for maximizing front delt mass, the front delts make up a relatively small portion of one's (potential) overall shoulder size.

This is why knowing how to properly perform side and rear laterals, while simultaneously focusing on progressive resistance, is so vitally important. Working primarily on overhead presses in order to get big delts is the equivalent of trying to get big triceps by focusing mainly on triceps kickbacks. It just doesn't work. In the same way, way to many people overly emphasize overhead pressing at the expense of side and rear lateral work...and they never achieve the round, bowling ball look they desire. Much of the reason for this is because they've been told that compound movements are what build the most mass...and that they need to put the most effort into them if they want to get as big as possible.

While this may stand true for most bodyparts (focusing in compound movements), it does NOT stand true for the delts, which is really 3 separate muscles in one, all of which have different functions and which require different movements in order to work properly. require completely different exercises in order to properly stress the individual muscles. You can't rely on compound movements (overhead presses) alone and expect to grow giant delts. This may work for bodyparts like the legs, chest, or back, in which compound movements alone are capable of producing massive development. This is not so for the delts. You can overhead press your ass off until the cows come home and still have relatively small, shitty delts.

Remember, when it comes to the side and rear delts, there aren't really any "compound" exercises for them. Sure, you could say that rows are a compound exercise for the rear delts and wide grip upright rows are a compound exercises for the side delts. But...unlike other bodyparts, in which compound exercises are going to add the most mass, this does NOT stand true for the side and rear delts. For the side and rear delts, isolation exercises (i.e. lateral raises) are king.

In addition to most people not knowing how to properly perform lateral raises, rarely do they use truly impressive weights. This is why their delts suck. If you want huge delts, you need to get beastly strong on laterals. This means that you need to treat them just like you would squats, rows, bench presses, or any other compound movement...because from an effectiveness standpoint, laterals ARE compound movements for the side and rear delts.

Exercise selection is another issue. Unlike many other bodyparts, in which free weights are usually equally or even more effective than their machine counterpart, machine will OFTEN provide superior results for the side and rear delts.

The reverse peck deck is one of the very best rear delt builders in a bodybuilder's repertoire. For many people they are vastly superior to dumbbell rear laterals, as they have a superior strength curve and make isolation of the rear delts much easier. This can allow the bodybuilder to really pile on the weight, dig in, and blast the hell out of his rear delts.

The same can even be said of machine side laterals. While dumbbell side laterals can be extremely effective, a properly designed side lateral machine has many of the same benefits that the reverse peck deck does, while also providing the additional benefit of reduced joint (i.e. elbow) stress. Like the reverse peck deck, a properly designed side lateral machine has a more even strength curve (compared to dumbbells) and automatically places the body in the proper alignment, thereby making isolation of the target muscle easier to achieve.

At the same time, a poorly designed side delt machine is an absolutely horrible choice. In this case dumbbell laterals are far superior. Before I go further, allow me to say that I don't believe that machine side laterals are necessarily better than dumbbell side laterals. When it comes to the rear delts I do believe the reverse peck deck is superior, in general. However, by applying proper technique, the initial shortcomings of dumbbells side laterals (uneven strength curve, etc.) can be overcome, making them highly effective.

Anyway, that's all for me right now. I NEED TO EAT!