Growing into a show?

[NY Muscle]

Ajdos, be careful with learning new tricks. Some people have sick genetics and metabolism and can handle certain dietary modifications better. Intra bloats me and I can't lose fat. I'd suggest if you do intra then don't do a post workout shake which in my case is in the locker room after my workout. Just have your normal scheduled meal later that day. If you have a fast metabolism then go for it.

My friend on the other hand can eat all he wants and even ate burger king a week before his show and only did a few days of cardio.

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[LK3]

Seems like what a lot of people are doing, and myself too, it time the majority of carbs to be taken in around training and first thing in the morning , the rest of the day carbs are scant.
Looks like everyone has a slightly different version of this from what Im seeing in this thread.
Im tempted to add the intra carbs but I think I have been so indoctrinated to believe they will just inhibit fat loss.
The crazy thing is on my low days I take in 200 grams of carbs at a bodyweight of 260. I feel hungry as hell but I don't shrink away, so I feel like Im on the threshold of carb intake, Im losing body fat at a good rate, but I feel like I get very flat and would love to add the intra carbs back in but am hesitant.

Mental as shredded as you were your last show I have to admit I was surprised by your post where you state you used intra carbs right up to the show.
Blows me away honestly.
Time for this old dog to learn some new tricks.

when I want to drop fat I try and focus my carbs around training, well carbs that impact insulin.

fasted cardio, then protein/fat and some fruit for carbs, I stya with this until a little be before training when I have something that will impact insulin, then do intra and post with simple sugar followed by meals with protein and simple carbs.

depending on time of day and what I need I might just do like 2 protein and carb meals post then switch to pro and fat.

since February I have gained close to 20kg. but I am in what I feel is a perpetual rebuilding. I have been pretty big at times before, I am always just trying to get back to that degree of musculature with less fat using less gear.

recently I have made my progress while using less and less, my diet has been pretty poor, which has been kind of fun. I have been using far less sups and only alittle t.

I was in great shape around the end of October but then ran out of everything and had some off time with a lot of partying. shrunk down but still had t about the same. got back in the gym and have really focused hard on my training. all things considered im kind of happy with what I have done.

in terms of growing into a show, I am really curious to see whati could do, I haven't done more then 350mg t/wk and that's now which is the highest I have gone in like 3 years. If I jumped on a real cycle and did some gh or peptides and slin I could easily put on another 20lbs while leaning out substantially.

peptides alone usually add10lbs and lean me out.

I find paying close attention to workout and carb timing makes a big difference, you can lean out while adding size, especially if you have been there before.

 

[Omega-Red]

From the back side...240 - 198lbs. These are the reasons I enjoyed promuscle, a community of knowledge...

Lenny thanks for sharing your insight fella, it really is appreciated and to be honest with you, i find that an eye opener , if you showed me those before pics i would have honestly thought 15lbs 20lbs max to lose, 40lbs is a huge loss and yet to be honest you really dont look smaller in any area except waistline, which is the goal.

I think thats a real sign to show people what it actually takes to step on stage in true condition, how hard you need to diet down in order to get that granite muscle look.

I remember speaking to a really amazing conditioned natural bodybuilder, ill never forget his advise, he said you want to get into a position where everyone thinks you look sliced and ripped and THEN the true diet begins and he was the most conditioned person i have ever seen natural or non natural.

 

[TooPowerful4u]

BOLD

Well I just finished reading your post. Its very good.
To me it sounds like you are a bit instinctive? for lack of a better term.

I see some of the same things in my own diets but yours is way advanced.
Impressive gains.

Do you drink the HBCD all the way through on your pre-contest diet?

I like using them for gaining size but the premise of them during a diet makes me shudder to think of interrupting any type of fat burning I have going.

All the way until peak week. HOW i use them differs. Pending where bodyfat is i might organize meals differently so i am slamming a HBCD/Hydro as i walk in the door and thats it. Other times il get it done sooner in the workouts pending where im at in prep. You cant go into prep thinking "i gotta be burning fat 24/7". Doesnt have to be that way. More and better timed carbs = stronger and more energy = more workload and volume = more stimulus and calories burned = more anabolic and metabolism higher = maybe build some muscle but definitely a higher metab over next 24hrs.

I'm wondering, and maybe I missed it, do the carbs between training and breakfast etc...stay very low, and then with optimized insulin sensitivity you do blasts around times of days when slin sensitivity is maxed. i.e. lots of carbs at breakfast, say 25-35% of that days intake and then the next couple meals between then and training (on days you train once say 6 pm) you keep the meals very low carb allowing the body to dip into reserves from caloric deficit, then you pound carbs intra and post, followed up by a tapering of carbs as you head into evening hours?

That sounds something like what i do, but its never concrete. All depends how depleted initially. I use what is needed based on current state and response. That means anything could change. There are no set rules. For the most part you are right....i will USUALLY only use carbs when most sensitive and only when they are needed and being utilized for something (kick metab, energy, glycogen, etc..0

I usually cut carbs off completely last 2 hours.

I guess I have more questions than anything else after reading your post.
I think you should post it here on pm-excuse my ignorance if you already have.

 

[TooPowerful4u]

YES. I agree that it is.

But when I hear 'growing into a show' my mind (and this is just me) jumps to the thought of Levrone, actually growing, coming in larger.

Phil showed he could do it, Im impressed.

Im ok with diet, but hes on another level. Im a bit unclear on his precise methodology - but this is something I would love to expand the discussion on- because I think its the holy grail of bodybuilding. However the premise of contradicting deficit and surplus to actually grow and lose fat is hard to wrap my mind around, I guess I need to think in 4 dimensions?

Growing into a show means building more muscle than you started with. its as simple as that. If ya person stays the same weight (as i mentioned) then they added considerable mass! Picture this.....take that mass they added....subtract the dieting and pretend they lost no bodyfat. The scale just went UP 15-20lbs! They did GAIN mass, and a lot of it!

What you are talking about, gaining WEIGHT over your starting point, would be very unrealistic muscular gains even for a persons offseason bulk.

My precision is not rocket science. A LOT of it is reading your body! First you must figure out how you respond to each macro (and combination) in different scenarios. Now, take that knowledge and apply it for your goal at hand. I do agree it is a MAJOR part of bodybuilding and can bring people up levels if done right. Thats why i spent so much time on it.

Surplus vs. deficit is simply this.

- Metab is amped, so you are burning through calories and processing well.
- There are times when we want to burn fat so we need a deficit (cardio, down time, while at work, late at night, etc...)
- There are times we want to BUILD muscle (obviously around the workout)

All im doing is removing say 3-5hrs a day and allotting it to muscle building rather than fat burning. Then we go back into fat burning once im satisfied we have kicked off recovery properly. That 3-5 window needs extreme attention for this to be possible. And boy have i gone to extremes. In that window the more nutrients you can PROCESS AND ABSORB towards muscle building the better your recovery and chances of gaining. Drinking 200g carbs during your workout will do shit. You want to have the optimal amount of macro's at that point in time, digest it, absorb it, then re-administer what is needed at THAT POINT. Digest, absorb...NOW what do i need. Etc....Now what you need depends on your response to macros as stated above. This is also where speed of what you are ingesting is critical and must be considered highly. I will almost always have PWO shake - 1hr - FAST digesting meal no fat (eggs, cream rice) - 2hr- high protein, mod carb, rich in EFA - 3hr - back to diet. Overdoing it will do nothing but gain fat and block up absorption. Think...what is the minimal i can do to still build muscle here....cannot go over or under that minimum (window)...experience helps

 

[TooPowerful4u]

Can't wait for Phil's reply! You always hear this. I too woul love to only drop 10# or so for prep.. But that comes from actually being lean
Pretty sure u can't be 230@18% and expect to be 215 on stage lol. A guy can dream....



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I really dislike just starting a prep. I prefer a prediet bulk phase to gain while priming and preparing for the diet. If your body fat is high its very easy to drop it down while bulking when you do it right. Its as simple as low carb off days, carb cutoffs and some fat burners. Never start prep above 12-14%.

 

[phatkid77]

Clearly you sound like u know a thing or too! Kudos. This is why, if I had more money. I'd hire people. Lol
I'm a dummy. And prefer to be led.


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[TooPowerful4u]

Honestly this sounds to me like im not telling people much anything noew. If anything maybe i put a little more focus and detail into it, tweaked the methods and a bit and really optimized it. Still, with many of you it seems we are all on the same page.

I will say this. Anyone who claims pre/intra/post/carb/sugar/fat this or that "dont work well for me in X situation" are missing something. EXAMPLE and as iv mentioned....if your preworkout meal is too close to the workout and the demand for nutrients isnt there then the intra WILL bloat you. Back to mister Hernons teaching of this long ago.....you have to create the NEED for the nutrients in order for them to be effective and efficient! You can almost say something doesnt work for you as we are all human, it just works DIFFERENTLY. That is why things are so individual and need to be tweaked for YOU. Pay closer attention to the details and figure out HOW to make it work.




sorry for late reply guys i got 1hr sleep last night busy as shit and just barely got a 4hr nap in so only just got to my laptop now.

 

[kinglewy]

It makes sense that if a guy can mantain overall mass on low doses with some gh in the off-season than when he really puts the pedal down come pre-contest he should grow even in calorie deficit.

I imagine some of the big boys ramp the tren up to 2-3 grams a week pre-contest, that in itself should allow growth even when calories are low.

Its probably safe to assume Levrone learned a lot of his methods from Oreagan, and even with Levrone stellar genetics there can be little doubt that pre-contest (especially Olympia) he put the pedal down hard.

 

[mewalrus]

l imagine some of the big boys ramp the tren up to 2-3 grams a week pre-contest, that in itself should allow growth even when calories are low.

My stomach would be so fucked i couldn't eat and sleep would be nonexistent.


I believe dave pucinella said he always grows into a show.

 

[JonnyO]

For me found what works best is keeping the carbs consistent throughout the day, pretty much equal amounts per meal. Then lowering it as I go along.

When I want to cut I do the am fasted cardio to burn fat.

I dont fancy the majority of my carbs around training. Offseason sure I raise them for pre/intra/post, but dieting I dont bother. Id rather get a steady supply of them in all my meals. There are points I will add extra hbcd intra, but remove them at points too.

 

[ajdos]

Ajdos, be careful with learning new tricks. Some people have sick genetics and metabolism and can handle certain dietary modifications better. Intra bloats me and I can't lose fat. I'd suggest if you do intra then don't do a post workout shake which in my case is in the locker room after my workout. Just have your normal scheduled meal later that day. If you have a fast metabolism then go for it.

My friend on the other hand can eat all he wants and even ate burger king a week before his show and only did a few days of cardio.

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I hear ya NY, and Im glad you brought up that point, that is something I was wondering about, its one thing to have the intra-but then a post as well?
Thats 100+ grams of carb in a short period of time, seems to me like once you dog down the 50-60 intra you wouldnt need any glucose replacement pwo because your system would be enzymatically unprimed and insulin sensitivity would not be heightened like it would have been on a carbless workout.

 

[ajdos]

Growing into a show means building more muscle than you started with. its as simple as that. If ya person stays the same weight (as i mentioned) then they added considerable mass! Picture this.....take that mass they added....subtract the dieting and pretend they lost no bodyfat. The scale just went UP 15-20lbs! They did GAIN mass, and a lot of it!

What you are talking about, gaining WEIGHT over your starting point, would be very unrealistic muscular gains even for a persons offseason bulk.

My precision is not rocket science. A LOT of it is reading your body! First you must figure out how you respond to each macro (and combination) in different scenarios. Now, take that knowledge and apply it for your goal at hand. I do agree it is a MAJOR part of bodybuilding and can bring people up levels if done right. Thats why i spent so much time on it.

Surplus vs. deficit is simply this.

- Metab is amped, so you are burning through calories and processing well.
- There are times when we want to burn fat so we need a deficit (cardio, down time, while at work, late at night, etc...)
- There are times we want to BUILD muscle (obviously around the workout)

All im doing is removing say 3-5hrs a day and allotting it to muscle building rather than fat burning. Then we go back into fat burning once im satisfied we have kicked off recovery properly. That 3-5 window needs extreme attention for this to be possible. And boy have i gone to extremes. In that window the more nutrients you can PROCESS AND ABSORB towards muscle building the better your recovery and chances of gaining. Drinking 200g carbs during your workout will do shit. You want to have the optimal amount of macro's at that point in time, digest it, absorb it, then re-administer what is needed at THAT POINT. Digest, absorb...NOW what do i need. Etc....Now what you need depends on your response to macros as stated above. This is also where speed of what you are ingesting is critical and must be considered highly. I will almost always have PWO shake - 1hr - FAST digesting meal no fat (eggs, cream rice) - 2hr- high protein, mod carb, rich in EFA - 3hr - back to diet. Overdoing it will do nothing but gain fat and block up absorption. Think...what is the minimal i can do to still build muscle here....cannot go over or under that minimum (window)...experience helps

My thing again with what you laid out on MD in your protocol with intra and pwo shakes and carb mixes plus gatorade.

It just seems to me that once you have the intra there's not much 'demand' as you say for post, not unless you workout an extra long time enough to get blood glucose low again...right?
So how do you not bloat or oversaturate with glucose from all those carbs in a short period, AND you are having another meal within ONE hour not the typical 2 hours between meals. Obviously it works very well for you, Im just trying to workout a framework I can try out myself without bloating myself to kingdom come.

 

[Rome1]

Great thread, bumping back up. TPFU has given a lot of info and I personally would like to see more. Lol

 

[EastJerseyBeast]

Antoine has grown into every show he's ever done just about...it looks like he gains 20 pounds of muscle throughout his prep even tho that couldn't be the case.

 

[AshopRep]

Antoine has grown into every show he's ever done just about...it looks like he gains 20 pounds of muscle throughout his prep even tho that couldn't be the case.

Kevin Levrone system.

 

[Marvel3203]

I really dislike just starting a prep. I prefer a prediet bulk phase to gain while priming and preparing for the diet. If your body fat is high its very easy to drop it down while bulking when you do it right. Its as simple as low carb off days, carb cutoffs and some fat burners. Never start prep above 12-14%.

Have yet to be able to do this, probably the reason I keep getting 3rd instead of the class win. Mini cuts this off season to stay in check