Growing into a show?

[Lenny]

I think if all the variables all played correctly, then with the right genetics and the spot you are sitting at before you start PREPPING into a show...then I would say YES, possibly. Just like someone who starts their prep at 229lbs and hits the stage at 225lbs hard as nails, kick ass...that kinda is growing into a show to me, only really a 4lb swing, doesn't sound like much loss, or did that person really lose any weight, most likely gain some legit muscle. Now, generally most do not this, but doesn't mean its not possible.

 

[jamescb77]

So let me understand.
You are saying you do?
If so, how much lean tissue do you put on for a show?
I mean one thing to remain at the same weight with improved body composition- that I can believe- but actually growing, say 10lbs in 12 weeks for a show?
C'mon...I am a skeptic, so as they say 'wheres the beef?'.

Isn't same weight with better body comp the definition of growing into a show. I mean if you are 200lb @8% and you end at 200@3% you put on 10lb while dropping 10lb of fat. Seems like growing to me. I have shit genetics and even I was able to somewhat attain this going into my last show.

 

[ajdos]

ummm whats it matter as long as you are growing? Consider this. Guy starts 210 @12% competes 210 5% in 12wks. Well he GAINED 15lbs of muscle in 3 months prep. How much more do you want? lol 99% of ANYONES bulking offseason wont see 15lbs LBM in 12wks. Thats absolutely outstanding!

And i started prep for nationals last yr 200lbs range competed 224

Well I just finished reading your post. Its very good.
To me it sounds like you are a bit instinctive? for lack of a better term.

I see some of the same things in my own diets but yours is way advanced.
Impressive gains.

Do you drink the HBCD all the way through on your pre-contest diet?

I like using them for gaining size but the premise of them during a diet makes me shudder to think of interrupting any type of fat burning I have going.

I'm wondering, and maybe I missed it, do the carbs between training and breakfast etc...stay very low, and then with optimized insulin sensitivity you do blasts around times of days when slin sensitivity is maxed. i.e. lots of carbs at breakfast, say 25-35% of that days intake and then the next couple meals between then and training (on days you train once say 6 pm) you keep the meals very low carb allowing the body to dip into reserves from caloric deficit, then you pound carbs intra and post, followed up by a tapering of carbs as you head into evening hours?

I usually cut carbs off completely last 2 hours.

I guess I have more questions than anything else after reading your post.
I think you should post it here on pm-excuse my ignorance if you already have.

 

[ajdos]

Isn't same weight with better body comp the definition of growing into a show. I mean if you are 200lb @8% and you end at 200@3% you put on 10lb while dropping 10lb of fat. Seems like growing to me. I have shit genetics and even I was able to somewhat attain this going into my last show.

YES. I agree that it is.

But when I hear 'growing into a show' my mind (and this is just me) jumps to the thought of Levrone, actually growing, coming in larger.

Phil showed he could do it, Im impressed.

Im ok with diet, but hes on another level. Im a bit unclear on his precise methodology - but this is something I would love to expand the discussion on- because I think its the holy grail of bodybuilding. However the premise of contradicting deficit and surplus to actually grow and lose fat is hard to wrap my mind around, I guess I need to think in 4 dimensions?

 

[TooPowerful4u]

Well I just finished reading your post. Its very good.
To me it sounds like you are a bit instinctive? for lack of a better term.

I see some of the same things in my own diets but yours is way advanced.
Impressive gains.

Do you drink the HBCD all the way through on your pre-contest diet?

I like using them for gaining size but the premise of them during a diet makes me shudder to think of interrupting any type of fat burning I have going.

I'm wondering, and maybe I missed it, do the carbs between training and breakfast etc...stay very low, and then with optimized insulin sensitivity you do blasts around times of days when slin sensitivity is maxed. i.e. lots of carbs at breakfast, say 25-35% of that days intake and then the next couple meals between then and training (on days you train once say 6 pm) you keep the meals very low carb allowing the body to dip into reserves from caloric deficit, then you pound carbs intra and post, followed up by a tapering of carbs as you head into evening hours?

I usually cut carbs off completely last 2 hours.

I guess I have more questions than anything else after reading your post.
I think you should post it here on pm-excuse my ignorance if you already have.

in gym il answer when i get to laptop itl be long reply.

last yrs prep doesnt matter i improve every prep. Maybe il log this one to nats

 

[jamescb77]

Makes sense yes not many can do what Phil is doing and actually getting bigger bodyweight wise. I can wait to see Phil's response he has a great deal if knowledge

 

[flexdurden]

Well I just finished reading your post. Its very good.
To me it sounds like you are a bit instinctive? for lack of a better term.

I see some of the same things in my own diets but yours is way advanced.
Impressive gains.

Do you drink the HBCD all the way through on your pre-contest diet?

I like using them for gaining size but the premise of them during a diet makes me shudder to think of interrupting any type of fat burning I have going.

I'm wondering, and maybe I missed it, do the carbs between training and breakfast etc...stay very low, and then with optimized insulin sensitivity you do blasts around times of days when slin sensitivity is maxed. i.e. lots of carbs at breakfast, say 25-35% of that days intake and then the next couple meals between then and training (on days you train once say 6 pm) you keep the meals very low carb allowing the body to dip into reserves from caloric deficit, then you pound carbs intra and post, followed up by a tapering of carbs as you head into evening hours?

I usually cut carbs off completely last 2 hours.

I guess I have more questions than anything else after reading your post.
I think you should post it here on pm-excuse my ignorance if you already have.

I want to hear what Phil says, but i used HBCDs right up to my shows. My thought process was that if I can train harder and recover and maintain my size (what little size I have), and focus the rest of my diet on fat burning, then I am in good shape and will not only lose fat, but will have a better overall appearance from holding on to size. From the results, I would say my conditioning did not suffer one bit and it made training bearable and I could at least get through a session without fee;ing like I drug through the pits of hell.

I also did not consume carbs until training, 20g-30g pre workout, 30g-40g intra and 50g-75g post workout. Those were my only carbs for the day and getting deeper into prep I reduced pre workout carbs.

 

[phatkid77]

Can't wait for Phil's reply! You always hear this. I too woul love to only drop 10# or so for prep.. But that comes from actually being lean
Pretty sure u can't be 230@18% and expect to be 215 on stage lol. A guy can dream....



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[Lenny]

Can't wait for Phil's reply! You always hear this. I too woul love to only drop 10# or so for prep.. But that comes from actually being lean
Pretty sure u can't be 230@18% and expect to be 215 on stage lol. A guy can dream....



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That's why I like to call offseason, PRESEASON, so the prep is very fruitful...many diet away muscle...to me maximum retention of muscle is somewhat a version of it...but not the same kevin leverone, the genetic freak type of growing into a show...lets be honest that is far and few between...actually gaining 25lbs into a show is elite. But, seeing someone maybe drop 4-6lbs and look 100% ready to me is a version of playing variables correctly, playing offseason pretty damn good, and the ultimate recomposition of the body. Not saying, that's me...but my 240lbs in the offseason is pretty lean, so prep is not super crazy for me.

 

[Lenny]

Good convo and the answers will always be an individuality response...I def didn't grow into the show, but you can see that retention of muscle to me pays huge role...TP4U is much more massive then me and he knows his stuff...as we can all soak this up. I am such a pic, visual guy, so here is me...I kinda old school

 

[phatkid77]

How in the fuck did u have 40 to lose!?!? But see already lean so still impressive at the end!!


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[Lenny]

From the back side...240 - 198lbs. These are the reasons I enjoyed promuscle, a community of knowledge...

 

[Lenny]

How in the fuck did u have 40 to lose!?!? But see already lean so still impressive at the end!!


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I can eat quite bit in spurts in the offseason based on my hunger demands...when it is kicking on high, I am eating often and maximizing recovery...when I prep, I adjust macros and metabolisms start firing up even more, I just make sure the muscle demands are met, train often, and more output...and once I get to like 212lbs, then I have to adjust again, to keep it rolling...and I was a Light Heavy at USAs this year placing 2nd...got a little more steam left in me...then it's time to "rest" up from stage! Honestly, I am grinder, I find a way, and try to play it smart...and keep some eyes on me in the process!

 

[Lenny]

I nothing special, I kinda just stick to the saying...play YOUR cards right, put your hard helmet on, and work hard to earn it...for it into your life because it makes the process easier. Keep mind strong, and learn what works for you, be open to the wisdom of the seasoned minds, soak it up and apply, adjust, fix it if needed...don't quit

 

[Lenny]

Or I could say this....
1.) Few actually truly gain a ton muscle into shows
2.) Isn't growing into a show, similar to retaining any new muscle gained from the offseason.
3.) Quite possibly, at the end of the prep, when you damn near ready, you gain a couple pounds, and it looks better, isn't that a version of growing into a show
4.) Biggest mistake is people get way out of hand in the offseason, unless you are fully confident you retain muscle, why not stay within reason, instead of turning into a dieting away muscle contest
5.) Different strokes, for different DNA's...always a common ground for bodybuilding...eat, train, recover, repeat....now, the response to all of it that is what either makes or breaks people...some have to be patient, some get there quick, some slow, etc etc etc
6.) And most do not want to know the truths of all of it, they fall for the hype BS.
7.) I by no means am in expert, just trialing and error...tested, tried, and trued...learned from my mistakes...have a second set of eyes on me that have been in the game for a long while, and well have had some awesome insights from very wise bodybuilders from this board over the years!
8.) It's not rocket science, but it is science of bodyBUILDING And I am posting like a dude who waiting to take off for Pitts, lol!

 

[Queefer]

I know I'm not on par with some of the guys like toopoo or Lenny, but I'll give my opinion. I try and grow at different parts of the day and get lean at others. Here's what I mean by that.

A few weeks out of a contest I'll still be taking in a lot of sugar before, during and after my workouts, because that's grow time. After my post workout meal, it's time to then get leaner for the day. I'll then go carb free untlil bed time and wont eat any carbs until first thing in the morning. This is when I'll take the majority of supps like gh and clen because I feel like being in a carb free environment is a more beneficial time to take these things. I even take clen right before bedtime. Morning time is a time to replenish and I have a large carb meal.

My precontest workouts are the same as offseason. The only difference is that I workout a little bit faster in order to get a bit of extra cardio in .

 

[ajdos]

Good convo and the answers will always be an individuality response...I def didn't grow into the show, but you can see that retention of muscle to me pays huge role...TP4U is much more massive then me and he knows his stuff...as we can all soak this up. I am such a pic, visual guy, so here is me...I kinda old school

198 looks almost as big as 240, thats damn impressive Lenny.
It doesn't look like you lost any more than 10 lbs from those photos.


My situation was different this year, instead of the typical off season so to speak where I could consistently do my diet properly and train on a schedule, take sups and PED's I was locked up, I was on their schedule and their diet (which is nightmarish) Went from 292 @ 13% to 252 @ 22% ( body fat guestimates using the mirror) Pretty much the worst possible scenario.

So I needed to lose the fat and retain what muscle I had, being so fat is different than being off season from a contest where your body fat is still in the neighborhood of 10%.
You take a person like that, and you are not going to grow them into much to get that much body fat off.

The response to training, peps, proper diet has helped jump start some growth, like Levrone my body was fresh and ready to grow.

But even in the primed state I have had to do a shit ton of cardio and maintain a diet that is rather spartan and deprived. I do carb cycle through the week and that really helps but Im looking to try to have my diet do a lot more so that I can back off the cardio a bit and retain a bit of muscle as I go to get below 8% (which is the current goal).
I think Im rambling a bit- the point is, its situational like Lenny pointed out.

 

[JonnyO]

A few shows ago I started my diet around 238 around 12% bodyfat. 10 weeks later I competed at 230 with striated glutes...Id say I gained during that prep no?

 

[Lenny]

A few shows ago I started my diet around 238 around 12% bodyfat. 10 weeks later I competed at 230 with striated glutes...Id say I gained during that prep no?

I think that is a version of what I was speaking about...so I would say YES! Recomposition at its finest!

 

[ajdos]

Seems like what a lot of people are doing, and myself too, it time the majority of carbs to be taken in around training and first thing in the morning , the rest of the day carbs are scant.
Looks like everyone has a slightly different version of this from what Im seeing in this thread.
Im tempted to add the intra carbs but I think I have been so indoctrinated to believe they will just inhibit fat loss.
The crazy thing is on my low days I take in 200 grams of carbs at a bodyweight of 260. I feel hungry as hell but I don't shrink away, so I feel like Im on the threshold of carb intake, Im losing body fat at a good rate, but I feel like I get very flat and would love to add the intra carbs back in but am hesitant.

Mental as shredded as you were your last show I have to admit I was surprised by your post where you state you used intra carbs right up to the show.
Blows me away honestly.
Time for this old dog to learn some new tricks.