growing lean for guys with average genetics

[qbkilla]

Do you believe it can be done?

Every approach I have ever taken, I must put on bloat and fat to gain muscle, and eat alot of calories. I am of the belief that it is possible, but takes an insane amount of drugs unless you have top notch genetics (which I don't have).

Has anyone had success? If so what did you do? Eat in a slight surplus? What drugs did you use? Cardio?

I recently put on 20lbs with test and deca, alot of water. My plan is to now use tren and winny and a small amount of test to "solidify" it if you will. No idea how it turns out. has anyone ran cutting drugs at high calories (im 190lbs eating 4300 calories) and how did it go?

 

[Tomgrass]

For me it was protein 2.5 to 3/kg around 1,gram fat per kg 300 carbs and 50 mg prop e2d and 400 mg Bayer primo

 

[Tomgrass]

P. S I also believe that is far way better bulk on cutter and cut on bulker if you know what I mean

 

[Elvia1023]

Do you believe it can be done?

Every approach I have ever taken, I must put on bloat and fat to gain muscle, and eat alot of calories. I am of the belief that it is possible, but takes an insane amount of drugs unless you have top notch genetics (which I don't have).

Has anyone had success? If so what did you do? Eat in a slight surplus? What drugs did you use? Cardio?

I recently put on 20lbs with test and deca, alot of water. My plan is to now use tren and winny and a small amount of test to "solidify" it if you will. No idea how it turns out. has anyone ran cutting drugs at high calories (im 190lbs eating 4300 calories) and how did it go?

I could write a lot about this but will try to keep it relatively brief (I failed ). Firstly it is 100% possible it's just many don't put 100% into things and often start with a negative mindset (I don't have good genetics) so they lose consistency. Often if they were to step back and look at their routine it's filled with holes. If someone is a machine as in progressively eating, training and drugging then of course it is possible. It's even possible with lower drugs but it just means the other elements have to be 100%.

Now I will add many bullshit about their doses and many even state they are natural and you see these crazy transformations. Half the fitness guys on IG are loaded up most of the year. However even with smaller doses of the right compounds combined with the right training and diet it's very possible. Obviously if someone has crap genetics they are not going to be 270 pound lean monsters probably on any drug stack. But often guys asking these questions have barely broke 200 pounds at a standard height so they obviously just aren't doing everything they need to be doing.

Everyone is different and I will keep this general but I will say 300mg tren per week can go a VERY LONG WAY. You don't need to be on massive doses of tren daily to grow lean like some people on here seem to think. Tren doesn't even have to be used but just making a point as many seem to think anyone big and lean is usually taking loads of tren. There is no right drug or training plan. Just consistency with good nutrition (never missing meals), taking the right drugs and training like an animal in the gym.

Now obviously drugs can be a factor as well. Certain things pop in my head when I think of growing lean and they include hgh, lr3, synthetine, primo, npp, test, mast, tren, avar... but you could use test and dbol if you really wanted to.

All in all it's just about eating good food in a slight surplus and gradually increasing that as you grow. Keeping your health good and performing cardio (not too much) and using the right drugs in stages (progressively).

 

[1bigmofo]

It doesnt take a shit ton of drugs, unless ur competing at the highest level. it takes knowledge, patience, discipline and commitment. obviously AAS are going to be highly beneficial to assist and speed this process up. Getting lean and tight will always give u a better physical and larger appearance. Staying away from adding a ton of water retention was always a priority to me. just never got into that big puffy look. id say diet, h2o, training style, recovery time, suppliments and aas are all important along with consistency and developing a program that is sustainable long term. Smaller more frequent test doses, DHB, primo, trest and tren are the compounds id stick with. adding in some winny if joints can hang. GH, if u can get pharma grade. Lastly, to me and for my genetics, cardio has never been done. i ramp up my training frequency, shorter rest periods higher reps tighten up diet. Stay consistent!!!

 

[Gunsmith]

I plan to get bigger and leaner this contest prep. Hopefully going from 245-250 at 10% to maybe 250 at 5%-6%
Plan is a significant amount of drugs (Test/Tren/Mast) combined with 4-6iu HGH and possibly some insulin.
Protein will start at 400g a day , Fat at 100g a day and carbs at 100g a day. Fats and carbs will be the calories that are adjusted

Getting leaner and gaining Muscle is possible , while it not optimal it is possible.
I personally would rather gain 5-6lb lean Muscle on a cycle that gain 25lbs and have to diet off an extra 20lbs

 

[Elvia1023]

Do you believe it can be done?

Every approach I have ever taken, I must put on bloat and fat to gain muscle, and eat alot of calories. I am of the belief that it is possible, but takes an insane amount of drugs unless you have top notch genetics (which I don't have).

Has anyone had success? If so what did you do? Eat in a slight surplus? What drugs did you use? Cardio?

I recently put on 20lbs with test and deca, alot of water. My plan is to now use tren and winny and a small amount of test to "solidify" it if you will. No idea how it turns out. has anyone ran cutting drugs at high calories (im 190lbs eating 4300 calories) and how did it go?

I wanted to add the way you are doing it is fine. That's the way I usually do things. However it's always best to hold the new weight as long as possible before dieting. If you put it on in 12 weeks then diet hard you will just lose it all. Obviously with drugs in the mix you will retain well and as you state "solidify" in a sense but the longer you stay in a calorie surplus the better. I believe you are already doing this but I would recommend keeping calories the same (and even up them) after you add in the more tren and winny. You should be able to get away with pushing the carbs on tren.

The key is also growing as lean as possible in the first place. Obviously growing lean takes much longer than the typical bulk and cut. However there should be a middle ground as in grow relatively lean when doing the typical bulk and cut. There is nothing wrong with a little fat/water but it should never get too out of control (15% bf max). Some guys get fat and when they start dieting they lose about 20 pounds in the 1st week alone and for me it's too extreme both ways.

Another key factor is simply starting your diet/cut on the most calories possible. Then it's about going down in calories as slowly as possible when you decide to cut. However for you now I would stay on high calories and rotate drugs and just train like an animal and you will grow lean tissue along the way.

 

[Lilleo187]

I'm trying to do that ATM. Im using test n Tren. 500 of each pw. I'm in week 7 and put on about 10lbs. I just upped the test from 250 pw to 500 last week. I'm kinda sitting at 15% bf but so I'm hoping to put on at least 5-10 more lbs while not getting over 16%. Which I think the Tren is helping me do. It's hard to eat enough on tren which is the only thing that sux. As long as I keep the food constant I gain weight. If I miss a meal or 2 I lose like 3lbs the next day. So yea it's like battle between me n the Tren.

 

[NGL34]

Being an endo meso body type here the best advice I can give is to get very lean first 8% or so. And then slowly add in extra calories every couple of weeks and try to maintain that low bf level never letting your self get past 12%-15%. Trying to grow being in a lean state will make it a hell of a lot easier to get bigger while staying relatively lean. When your lean your body is ultra insulin sensitive which is key to staying lean while trying to grow.

 

[b-boy]

2 words....................INSULIN SENSITIVITY

 

[thethinker48]

Control carbs

As someone who as "ecto" traits with no problem putting on bf when cranking up calories...carb control is key

I realized I needed way less carbs. High fat, protein and controlled carbs = leaner physique

 

[qbkilla]

I plan to get bigger and leaner this contest prep. Hopefully going from 245-250 at 10% to maybe 250 at 5%-6%
Plan is a significant amount of drugs (Test/Tren/Mast) combined with 4-6iu HGH and possibly some insulin.
Protein will start at 400g a day , Fat at 100g a day and carbs at 100g a day. Fats and carbs will be the calories that are adjusted

Getting leaner and gaining Muscle is possible , while it not optimal it is possible.
I personally would rather gain 5-6lb lean Muscle on a cycle that gain 25lbs and have to diet off an extra 20lbs

Just curious, have you always ate that much protein and has it hurt the kidneys at all? I know back in the day I had Alex azarian training me online, he did have me eat very high protein (probably 400g) and it was the biggest I ever was. But I did not feel well and did have a kidney scare. I do feel like part of the equation is the massive amount of protein but worry about the health tradeoff. Currently I get about 250-300g, probably still higher than most.

 

[qbkilla]

I could write a lot about this but will try to keep it relatively brief (I failed ). Firstly it is 100% possible it's just many don't put 100% into things and often start with a negative mindset (I don't have good genetics) so they lose consistency. Often if they were to step back and look at their routine it's filled with holes. If someone is a machine as in progressively eating, training and drugging then of course it is possible. It's even possible with lower drugs but it just means the other elements have to be 100%.

Now I will add many bullshit about their doses and many even state they are natural and you see these crazy transformations. Half the fitness guys on IG are loaded up most of the year. However even with smaller doses of the right compounds combined with the right training and diet it's very possible. Obviously if someone has crap genetics they are not going to be 270 pound lean monsters probably on any drug stack. But often guys asking these questions have barely broke 200 pounds at a standard height so they obviously just aren't doing everything they need to be doing.

Everyone is different and I will keep this general but I will say 300mg tren per week can go a VERY LONG WAY. You don't need to be on massive doses of tren daily to grow lean like some people on here seem to think. Tren doesn't even have to be used but just making a point as many seem to think anyone big and lean is usually taking loads of tren. There is no right drug or training plan. Just consistency with good nutrition (never missing meals), taking the right drugs and training like an animal in the gym.

Now obviously drugs can be a factor as well. Certain things pop in my head when I think of growing lean and they include hgh, lr3, synthetine, primo, npp, test, mast, tren, avar... but you could use test and dbol if you really wanted to.

All in all it's just about eating good food in a slight surplus and gradually increasing that as you grow. Keeping your health good and performing cardio (not too much) and using the right drugs in stages (progressively).

Solid thinking, this is probably how I would go about it. Any suggestions on rate of weight gain? IN the past 20 weeks I have put on 20lbs, relatively lean for one of my bulks but I do feel like I have ton of distension that id like to eliminate and see where I stand. I feel like the 20lbs ive added,,,its not lard,,,,its not muscle,,,,its more 20lbs of just water in my gut making be look pregnant to be honest. And some gains in the chest. Pretty much 20lbs of fluid to my torso, no gains in the arms or delts really. One reason why im thinking, for me, maybe something other than test or deca with both being very wet.

 

[qbkilla]

Control carbs

As someone who as "ecto" traits with no problem putting on bf when cranking up calories...carb control is key

I realized I needed way less carbs. High fat, protein and controlled carbs = leaner physique

How high have you gone in fat? At 4300 calories, here are my macros for today. They are roughly the same each day..259pro, 583 carbs, 125 fat.

 

[Elvia1023]

Solid thinking, this is probably how I would go about it. Any suggestions on rate of weight gain? IN the past 20 weeks I have put on 20lbs, relatively lean for one of my bulks but I do feel like I have ton of distension that id like to eliminate and see where I stand. I feel like the 20lbs ive added,,,its not lard,,,,its not muscle,,,,its more 20lbs of just water in my gut making be look pregnant to be honest. And some gains in the chest. Pretty much 20lbs of fluid to my torso, no gains in the arms or delts really. One reason why im thinking, for me, maybe something other than test or deca with both being very wet.

What bodyfat % did you start growing from? What does your diet look like? Are you using any powders? Any cheat meals or using foods you know that cause you bloating? What about your water intake every day? Are you just using test and deca? Any hgh or mk-677? This is all gonna come back to your diet (calories, food choices etc) and drugs used can have an effect. Again I would just do what you have planned with rotating the drug choices and obviously making sure you are 100% consistent with everything else and see how you are.

We would need to see pics because some people are their worse critics. At the same time others are their best critics so who knows. I imagine it's not as bad as you state though. Nevertheless, if you have gained a lot of fluid around your waist obviously something isn't right and some minor adjustments could be enough to fix the issue. In my experience bloating is usually a byproduct of eating foods that don't agree with you. It's impossible to state as everyone is different so it could be anything so I would closely monitor yourself after eating certain foods and eliminate one at a time and reintroduce after some time. It can be a long process but if you eat the same sort of foods daily it makes it much easier. Now drugs can also have a big impact on things especially certain orals but it's most likely food/drink related.

Another factor is the overall food volume and total calories and it effecting digestion so that also needs to be looked at. You want to pick foods that you digest effectively and also minimize food volume. One example is quite often guys will eat tonnes of vegetables for health reasons and it slows everything down and often causes bloating. The key is always a balance. I don't know your diet so it may not be a facot but something to consider... again back to food choices but also volume.

 

[Delt123]

It was possible for me but the gain wasn’t as impressive as the ‘wet’ drugs and seems to stick around less (mainly the ‘look’).

context: I stripped a good 20lbs first Within 16weeks, cruised for 10 weeks and still ate low calorie, then blasted again with 500 sust 400 tren and 15mk. The hunger was insane from eating so little the past 26 weeks and adding mk. Went from 2.6k caloriees to 4K in two days to satisfy my hunger. Ended on 4.8k with still pretty visible abs After 10weeks. Gained the whole 20lbs back but with a whole different bodycomp. At the time I was only 15lbs heavier than you.

once I went back to cruising, the look faded fast and weight dropped 6-8lbs.

I don’t think I would be as successful at it to push it lean at my Current bodyweight tbh.

 

[Gunsmith]

Just curious, have you always ate that much protein and has it hurt the kidneys at all? I know back in the day I had Alex azarian training me online, he did have me eat very high protein (probably 400g) and it was the biggest I ever was. But I did not feel well and did have a kidney scare. I do feel like part of the equation is the massive amount of protein but worry about the health tradeoff. Currently I get about 250-300g, probably still higher than most.

I've always shot for at least 1.25g per pound generally 1.5g per pound and I've never had any issues at all.
I actually went into renal failure this last October when I ended up with sepsis , paratinitus and pancreatitis. The surgeon said it would take several weeks for my kidneys to come back on line and start working efficiently but I was back pissing like a race horse in about 24hrs and my kidney values were back into a normal range within a week.
When I worked with Alex the only issues I had here terrible cholesterol after my prep

 

[IronLion2]

If you don't grow with minor surplus calories, why would more calories help?
If you don't grow with major surplus of calories, why would less calories help?

TL;DR I doubt your diet is whats holding you back

 

[thethinker48]

How high have you gone in fat? At 4300 calories, here are my macros for today. They are roughly the same each day..259pro, 583 carbs, 125 fat.

I can ramp it pretty high, 30-40 grams of fat with protein as a meal. We all have a limit where digestion issues, and fat gain then starts to take over

Up to 3 tablespoons of olive oil with a shake for example is ok for me, 3.5 and I'm not feeling so good

Fats also keep my muscles fuller; something something intramuscular triglycerols

 

[nihilixm]

Your body can maximally build 60g (somth like that) actual muscle tissue a day. Use enough roids to keep those little gains coming but not too much that you'll need to drop down early then just keep going and maintain your body weight and eating well. Should end up recomping over time as long as you keep eating enough shooting enough drugs and progressing with weights. Imo its the same process just you don't get the glycogen fluctuations of cutting/bulking amplefied by the drugs, just recomping. Mike mentzer was Rly ahead of his time think he said somth similar