Gyno

[John_Rambo]

So I switched from HRT with 6.25asin ED to 125mg test-e and 100mg tren-e E3D and 50 drol ED with 6.25asin ED.

After four weeks my nipples got sore and I noticed a lump coming back on my right nipple so I jumped on 40nolva + 25asin on day one, and kept going with 20nolva and 25asin ED for 6 days now, and my nipples are still very sore.

I thought the soreness would go away...it's like my estrogen is still too high???

What would you guys do in this situation?

I would like to avoid going on high dose letro and kill my sex drive and joints.

Suspecting that my aromasin was not working I took .625mg letro today instead.

The more I read, the more confused I am.

People saying not to use nolva with tren because it could aggravate the gyno so I did not take nolva today; people saying aromasin is stronger than letro...

I ordered prami and arimidex today.

Seriously what are my options right now beside 2.5mg letro ED for like 4-8 weeks? Enough with the bro-science...


Envoyé de mon iPhone à l'aide de Tapatalk

 

[ALLEX]

Enough with the bro-science...

Then you need bloods.

High prolactin maybe?

 

[letsrun4it]

This is obviously tren related based on the fact that with TRT you experienced no gyno.

1. stop the tren
2. get serious with the prami
3. forget the letro it's not going to help
4. nolva is going to make it worse

work your way up to .5mg/day of prami and stay on it until gyno is all gone

if you ever want to use tren again, have human grade caber before you start

that's the best advice I can give as someone else who struggled with prolactin gyno sensitivity until I figured it out.

 

[John_Rambo]

This is obviously tren related based on the fact that with TRT you experienced no gyno.



1. stop the tren

2. get serious with the prami

3. forget the letro it's not going to help

4. nolva is going to make it worse



work your way up to .5mg/day of prami and stay on it until gyno is all gone



if you ever want to use tren again, have human grade caber before you start



that's the best advice I can give as someone else who struggled with prolactin gyno sensitivity until I figured it out.

I was fine with 350mg tren-e last summer though without caber or prami!

I however got gyno once on low test, med
tren, high npp.

I will not drop my AI though that would be risky. What about letro at .625mg ED or EOD?

 

[Jizzmo]

anadrol seems to have something about it that activates the estrogen receptor directly. theres nothing you can do about it except trying to block ALL estrogen receptors with a SERM (i doubt that this works).

the whole "nolvadex with 19nor aggravates gyno"-thing is utter bullshit, but im too lazy to dig out the studies now. i think for some people nolva increased estrogen receptor sensitivity when run with a 19nor, but this only lasted like 3 weeks or something, then it decreased binding or affinity in EVERY SINGLE participant.

i generally run raloxifene (if you can get your hands on it, otherwise run nolva (be aware of potential stroke risks though) with every blast) and letro with every blast. i like letro as an on cycle AI. i take 1.25mg letro e3d with 1g test (i usually run NPP too though, but its still enough).

 

[pasamoto]

It's the tren and drol sensitizing estrogen receptor.
Drop the tren and drol
Lower test e to 20mg eod
Run raloxifen at 60mg or nolva at 40
Humanofort 300mg a day
Throw in some masteron or proviron

 

[Warrior Man]

Definitely look into getting some caber on hand your prolactin levels must be sky high

 

[John_Rambo]

This is obviously tren related based on the fact that with TRT you experienced no gyno.



1. stop the tren

2. get serious with the prami

3. forget the letro it's not going to help

4. nolva is going to make it worse



work your way up to .5mg/day of prami and stay on it until gyno is all gone



if you ever want to use tren again, have human grade caber before you start



that's the best advice I can give as someone else who struggled with prolactin gyno sensitivity until I figured it out.

Why would Nolva make it worse?

I knew someone would tell me to drop it and someone else to run it =\.

 

[John_Rambo]

It's the tren and drol sensitizing estrogen receptor.
Drop the tren and drol
Lower test e to 20mg eod
Run raloxifen at 60mg or nolva at 40
Humanofort 300mg a day
Throw in some masteron or proviron

I have like 6 x 20mg nolva pills left. The rest will arrive next week with the prami.

What do you think of this:

Drop the cycle to 100test, 100mast, 100 tren, 175tbol EW (splitted in E3D injects), and keep going with either 25asin ED or .625 letro E3D and 400mg B6 ED? I don't want to completely ruin my cycle either but I would not take anything that would potentially feed the gyno.

I can't wait for the nipple to f..king chill out they itch like a motherfucker and it makes me think gyno is forming.

Will the AI dose mentionned above work or should I take no chance and go on 2.5mg letro ED?!? This shit is confusing.

 

[chinaboy]

Make a plan and stick with it. Write down what you do and the results. This way you can see what is working and what is not. Don't change dosages of everything all the time. This will make you confused about what is going on.

 

[ugadawg91]

TIPS:

Masteron
Epistane
+
Toremifene
Pramipexole

= on cycle gyno reversal

 

[John_Rambo]

My lump is now visible, im fucking freaking out!!!!

 

[mewalrus]

My lump is now visible, im fucking freaking out!!!!

did you stop the tren and abombs?
If you didn't then maybe now you will?

Relax you can always just blast away and have surgery later. I think pointy ones might be the next in thing anyways.

 

[gungalunga]

I know this is a tough idea for a lot of guys to think of....but how about getting off all gear for a while, then get your bloodwork done....and then remedy whatever is wrong so the gyno goes away. Hell...just getting off gear for a while might make the gyno reverse itself.

 

[BBB]

2.5mg/day Letro killed my 5 year old gyno quickly. SERMs made it worse. Prami didn't help at all. Aromasin or Formestane works well to keep it at bay once it's under control.

 

[Kaladryn]

It's not estrogen causing your problems, so taking steps to lower estrogen aren't going to help. BUT, that being said, your aromasin has a 9 hour halflife, and E2 suppression after 24 hours is only 38%.

The problem is drol and tren combined, this is a nasty combo, and they don't metabolize into E2 or progesterone/prolactin, they actually activate the receptor themselves.

Nolva does help with some people on tren/drol (kind of works great for me) but some people actually get WORSE gyno on nolva (supposedly). There is a long winded theory on this that could be accurate. Anyhow, EVEN if nolva worked a little on tren+drol gyno, it's still going slow get worse over time.

You can try prami or caber but that will only help with the tren part of it, not the drol part, and it's more preventive than curative.

So, a few things:

1. tren+drol is very nasty combo as far as gyno is concerned in some/most people.

2. you should probably consider an AI with a longer halflife, but this won't solve the gyno issue, just perhaps lessen future issues.

3. you will always have lumps under there unless you get them cut out, you may make them shrink SOME, but not all the way down.

4. touching them will make your nipples sore and make the gyno worse (stimulates prolactin production), don't constantly be feeling them because you are freaking out.

5. everybody has breast tissue under the nipple, don't freak out if it's not very noticeable.

6. don't try to shrink gyno on cycle, try to just keep it from getting worse, shrink it when you are off or cruising, then next cycle take preventative measures before you have any issues.

 

[John_Rambo]

It's not estrogen causing your problems, so taking steps to lower estrogen aren't going to help. BUT, that being said, your aromasin has a 9 hour halflife, and E2 suppression after 24 hours is only 38%.



The problem is drol and tren combined, this is a nasty combo, and they don't metabolize into E2 or progesterone/prolactin, they actually activate the receptor themselves.



Nolva does help with some people on tren/drol (kind of works great for me) but some people actually get WORSE gyno on nolva (supposedly). There is a long winded theory on this that could be accurate. Anyhow, EVEN if nolva worked a little on tren+drol gyno, it's still going slow get worse over time.



You can try prami or caber but that will only help with the tren part of it, not the drol part, and it's more preventive than curative.



So, a few things:



1. tren+drol is very nasty combo as far as gyno is concerned in some/most people.



2. you should probably consider an AI with a longer halflife, but this won't solve the gyno issue, just perhaps lessen future issues.



3. you will always have lumps under there unless you get them cut out, you may make them shrink SOME, but not all the way down.



4. touching them will make your nipples sore and make the gyno worse (stimulates prolactin production), don't constantly be feeling them because you are freaking out.



5. everybody has breast tissue under the nipple, don't freak out if it's not very noticeable.



6. don't try to shrink gyno on cycle, try to just keep it from getting worse, shrink it when you are off or cruising, then next cycle take preventative measures before you have any issues.

I am now on letro at 2.5mg ED, proviron 25 mg ED, masteron 100mg EOD, b6 at 600mg ED.

Monday, prami and nolva will be here so I will use prami for sure, should I jump on nolva too or not in your opinion?

My estrogen is rock buttom and my lumps are still growing. This is crazy, I always took all precautions so that this never happens to me.

I have rarely felt so depressed.

 

[G.I.Bro]

This is obviously tren related based on the fact that with TRT you experienced no gyno.

1. stop the tren
2. get serious with the prami
3. forget the letro it's not going to help
4. nolva is going to make it worse

I dont really understand this advice, in fact its bad. High E2 will increase Prolactin ALL ON ITS OWN even without the presence of a 19nor like Tren. Prolactin/Progestin aggravated gyno is ALWAYS worse in the presence of too much estrogen. I am not saying its caused by estrogen because its not. But saying the letro is not going to help is foolish. When on Tren/Test (or anything aromatizing) you still want to keep your E2 under control, right? Many minds have hypothesized its actually the elevated estrogen in the presence of the elevated prolactin or progesterone that allows Tren based prolactin gyno to really rear its ugly head. Common knowledge I have seen says keeping estrogen low reduces the chances of a prolactin/prog based flare usp. Basically any change in E2 can change prolactin metabolism. E2 goes up = prolactin goes up and vice versa, its way more complex than most realize (and I barely grasp the interplay well). Prolactin itself doesnt do much, but it really increases estrogen's effect making estrogen much more active at lower levels. So high E2 + Prolactin elevated is never good. I agree caber or prami is a must (I believe caber is better as it has fewer sides). However, I still think an AI to keep estrogen low on this mix is also wise.

You can get gyno 3 ways. First off, from estrogen. Second, from progesterone alone, or progesterone making estrogenic gyno worse. And finally, from prolactin. Tamox can be used to treat gyno from either Deca or Tren, whether it be from estrogen or progesterone. BUT Tamox CANNOT treat prolactin induced gyno. But can treat estrogenic gyno or progestenic gyno (if that exists). For pure prolactin based gyno you need the caber or prami. The problem is, real world, there is always interplay between all these hormones and you never can be 100% sure what exactly is the issue when your on multiple compounds. I think the concept that Nolva maxes prolactin based gyno worse is a myth though and based on some confusion from data from studies showing it upregulates prog receptor in certain OTHER tissue.

The problem is drol and tren combined, this is a nasty combo, and they don't metabolize into E2 or progesterone/prolactin, they actually activate the receptor themselves.

Nolva does help with some people on tren/drol (kind of works great for me) but some people actually get WORSE gyno on nolva (supposedly). There is a long winded theory on this that could be accurate. Anyhow, EVEN if nolva worked a little on tren+drol gyno, it's still going slow get worse over time.

So, a few things:

1. tren+drol is very nasty combo as far as gyno is concerned in some/most people.

Kaladryn: I am on the dreaded Tren/Test/Drol combo right now. I have a slight lump under my left nipple which flares up pretty much anytime I use anything 19nor or higher test (no matter how much caber/AI I am on). The right nipple has never had a thing, only the left. Its strange. It quickly shrinks down once I'm off or on TRT levels. It's not large and not visibly noticeable but its there and its not going anywhere. I hit it real hard with high dose Letro/Nolva and rotated in some Torem once. It shrunk it up pretty good but once I'm back on anything, it "plumps" up again.

Anyway, my question is as to this "nolva making it worse" issue. I know you dont have time to lay it all out but in a nutshell could you explain what the hypothesized mechanism here is? Why would tomax make it worse? It competes for E2 receptor sites directly in the breast/glandular tissue itself but does not "directly" bind with Progesterone receptor like the E2 receptor.

I suspect the theory is that Nolva (Tamoxifen) upregulates the PgR (progesterone receptor) and can exacerbate existing gynecomastia conditions cause by elevated prolactin. So the logic would follow that in that situation, it's best to use an aromatase inhibitor + caber if you are 100% certain the gyno is from prolactin and not E2 because the Tomax can make it worse. Seems to make sense. I think often people get E2 based gyno when they add Tren in because the elevated prolactin will make the circulating estrogen so much more potent/active. A higher AI dose may be needed. Then when they get gyno, they assume it must be from the Tren (prolactin) when it very may well be E2 based. It's hard telling and I myself never really know what the fuck is causing what when on multiple things (especially test/tren/drol). Is this in line with your understanding of why Nolva could be said to make it worse? Still not sure I buy it but there is a pubmed on this precise mechanism BUT not in breast tissue.

Here is a counter point to that above logic which I think is based on some confusion. In some tissues, such as the uterus, upregulation of the progesterone receptor would be seen and expected as its highly estrogen sensitive. People see this an assume its global (all tissue). However, in other tissues, such as the breast (glands), Tamoxifen is an antagonist (blocks the ER). The progesterone receptor is synthesized in response to estrogen. So when the ER is blocked (in breast tissue), the progesterone receptor will also down regulate. This has been seen in breast cancer patients being treated with tomax. The same occurrence should happen with us.

Therefore, Tamoxifen should help reduce gyno even when using Tren or Deca, not make it worse. Its good when ots E2 or Prog based and should not hurt if its direct prolactin based but you still need Caber also.

Tamoxifen will down regulate the progesterone receptor in breast tissue. Some say Tamox will up regulate the progesterone receptor and cause or lead to gyno (as I stated above). However, this is not accurate and the assumption Tamox CANT be used with Deca or Tren is false. It should NOT up-regulate progesterone receptor sensitivity in breast tissue itself. IMO, the gold standard for ALL TYPES OF GYNO is still a SERM/AI in combination.

Opinions please! I'm way over my head here. Where is Stewie!

 

[G.I.Bro]

MOAR!

Originally Posted by Conciliator @ Steroid.com
I see that priapis posted several studies attempting to support his claim that tamoxifen (nolva) upregulates the progesterone receptor (PgR) in breast tissue. The first two studies he posted looked at cancerous breast tumors (i.e. not normal breast tissue). The next two studies he posted (here and here) looked at the effect in endometrial tissue (the uterus).

First, let's address the latter, endometrial tissue: I've talked about that here. The gist is that it's no surprise tamoxifen upregulates the PgR in the uterus, where 1) there is high sensitivity to estrogen and *especially* where 2) tamoxifen is known to act as an estrogen receptor agonist (acting like estrogen, not blocking it). This is not the case in normal breast tissue. I argue that Eric Potratz is an idiot (and he is) for extrapolating from endometrial tissue in women to healthy breast tissue in men, without even mentioning (or being aware of) the differential tissue effects. He's misleading people about the dangers of tamoxifen so he can sell a competing product.

Second, let's address the effects in breast cancer tissue: My position is that the effect on PgR expression is not uniform, though there is often a statistically significant increase. If we look at the full text of the first study that priapi posted, we see in table 2 that 24% the tamoxifen group had down-regulation of the PgR, 26% had no change, and 50% showed up-regulation. In contrast, this study found what they described as "a modest decline" in PgR levels in all three histologies they tested with tamoxifen treatment, though it failed to achieve statistical significance (p values of .19, .82, and .15).

But most importantly, what do we see in normal, healthy breast tissue? Before I address that, note that earlier in this thread priapis said that I have "an unsupported/undocumented opinion that contradicts science, based on an incorrect reading of some other guys article." He says that the studies above (in cancer tissue and endometrial tissue) "and many more" show that my opinion is incorrect. He ends his post arguing that "the fact of upregulation in BREAST TISSUE is so well established..."

priapis couldn't be more wrong. He fails to understand that there is a significant difference between cancerous breast tumors and normal breast tissue. This study looked at ER and PgR expression in normal breast tissue (i.e. not cancer tissue) in tamoxifen treated women. They found that tamoxifen "shows no stimulatory activity on either PgR levels, a well known oestrogen regulated protein... or the important parameter of cell proliferation (Figure 2)." "In conclusion, the data presented do not show any adverse effects of tamoxifen on normal breast tissue."

This finding was confirmed in the most extensive study that I've seen looking at the effects of tamoxifen in normal breast tissue, which was published in 2003. This quote couldn't be any more relevant or explicit. Read it and reread it:Here are images showing the effect of different doses of tamoxifen on the level of estrogen receptors (ER, on the left) and progesterone receptors (PR, on the right) in normal breast tissue:

**broken link removed****broken link removed**

These results in normal breast tissue are in perfect accordance with my statement that "There is no evidence showing that tamoxifen upregulates the progesterone receptor in the breast (which is what the worry is all about). It shows it does the opposite." priapis is demonstrating his ignorance when he says that this statement "contradicts science." In fact, it's based on the science (and the most relevant science at that).

I stand by my argument that "Nolvadex will not make progesterone related gyno worse. It will help prevent it." (Unless, of course, your breast tissue is a uterus or a cancer )

-Conciliator

ITS BRO MYTH DEBUNKING FRIDAY FELLAS. This shit deserves its own post.

 

[G.I.Bro]

Kaladryn: If you choose to respond with anything, post here. http://www.professionalmuscle.com/f...bunking-another-bromyth-nolva-tren-=-bad.html

I think this topic deserves its own thread. Our titties are on the line!