Hard work vs genetics & gear... when passion just ain’t enough?

[romo]

A lot of things are like this. You know the old saying , its a long way to the top if you wanna rock and roll lol. Thats what i always liked about bodybuilding,, you just work with what you have and become a better you. Most will realize in the first two years if they have what it takes or what they are willing to do. Just remember, be mindful of your health.

 

[NEMSZ]

I weigh around 176 lbs, I got to around 185.
I eat more than 4000 kcal pretty much all year round and if I go down even for a few days I start to lose weight.
in bulk I eat around 5500 kcal a day.

I'm definitely not complaining about staying lean, but I'm definitely not good at bulking up.

and no, I don't agree that anyone can do it just because you or someone else did.
that's why champions exist (in all sports and in life), because they succeed and others don't, and it's not just a matter of doing what needs to be done with passion and dedication.

Real talk, man... I truly believe everyone's got a gift, y'know? Like, we're all built to shine at somethin'. Some dudes are born to move iron, some got pipes for singin', others got feet for dancin'.

Me? Feels like I missed my shot... whatever it was, I ain't even sure anymore. But it sure as hell wasn't bodybuilding ... (and trust me, it damn sure ain't singin' or dancin' either, lmao).


Sometimes it just hits me like... did I waste my time chasing a dream that wasn't mine to begin with?

I don’t mean to be confrontational with my post, so don’t take it that way..

First, I’ll say that of course genetics matter, they matter A LOT. But like Luki said, you can still make great progress and look amazing..

Just look around this board a bit, you’ll see guys cruising on 300-500mg total that look 3-6 weeks out from a show at all times.. Then you’ve got guys blasting everything under the sun with grams of gear and they really are a few weeks out from a show and look like they haven’t even started worrying about dieting/prepping for a show..

I’m sure there are other factors at play there, but you get what I mean..

Now to my other point, and again, I’m not trying to be offensive here but;

I’d love to see an entire day of your eating that equals 4K-5.5k calories.

You’re 176lbs, lean and eating that much and can’t grow??

We’re about the same weight, and I’m pretty lean now too, I do BJJ, lift 5x per week, and average 12-15k steps per day, so a lot of movement, and I get it, people are different, but it’s always been hard to gain for me too, but I’m eating anywhere in the realm of 3k-3400 calories (tracking everything) and it’s A LOT of food (again, for someone my size, I’m sure there’s big guys on here that can eat that in a cheat meal if they really wanted to)..

I’m at around 550g Carbs, 50g Fat, 190g Protein when I hit my goals and it feels like A LOT (trying to get it all from cleaner foods but sometimes I don’t make it).

Are you sure you’re eating that much? Do you track every single thing you eat?

I used to over estimate how much I ate, and it’s actually very common, a lot of people do..

So either you’re a marathon runner/professional athlete, or you have Roman Fritz like freak genetics that just absolutely burns through food like crazy and you can be 7% bodyfat on 1000g Carbs a day, OR, You’re flat out over estimating how much you eat and you’re not eating anywhere near that much food and that’s why you can’t gain..

 

[Flocci]

I don’t mean to be confrontational with my post, so don’t take it that way..

First, I’ll say that of course genetics matter, they matter A LOT. But like Luki said, you can still make great progress and look amazing..

Just look around this board a bit, you’ll see guys cruising on 300-500mg total that look 3-6 weeks out from a show at all times.. Then you’ve got guys blasting everything under the sun with grams of gear and they really are a few weeks out from a show and look like they haven’t even started worrying about dieting/prepping for a show..

I’m sure there are other factors at play there, but you get what I mean..

Now to my other point, and again, I’m not trying to be offensive here but;

I’d love to see an entire day of your eating that equals 4K-5.5k calories.

You’re 176lbs, lean and eating that much and can’t grow??

We’re about the same weight, and I’m pretty lean now too, I do BJJ, lift 5x per week, and average 12-15k steps per day, so a lot of movement, and I get it, people are different, but it’s always been hard to gain for me too, but I’m eating anywhere in the realm of 3k-3400 calories (tracking everything) and it’s A LOT of food (again, for someone my size, I’m sure there’s big guys on here that can eat that in a cheat meal if they really wanted to)..

I’m at around 550g Carbs, 50g Fat, 190g Protein when I hit my goals and it feels like A LOT (trying to get it all from cleaner foods but sometimes I don’t make it).

Are you sure you’re eating that much? Do you track every single thing you eat?

I used to over estimate how much I ate, and it’s actually very common, a lot of people do..

So either you’re a marathon runner/professional athlete, or you have Roman Fritz like freak genetics that just absolutely burns through food like crazy and you can be 7% bodyfat on 1000g Carbs a day, OR, You’re flat out over estimating how much you eat and you’re not eating anywhere near that much food and that’s why you can’t gain..

it sounds to me like you have a low appetite, sub 4000kcal is not much food for a lifter in my opinion. That should go down pretty easily for most when choosing foods that agree with you, no?

yes, im fully aware how much "clean food" that is, ive been measuring and tracking my food the past decade.

 

[Flocci]

To your point, i dont think you can say you have bad genetics for building muscle if you havent given your body the chance to grow optimally by consistently eating in a surplus over months with training, sleep, stress and your general lifestyle locked in for recovery and growth with PEDs in play.

Working hard and smart would involve eating in a surplus if your goal is muscle gain.

 

[kadafi2]

Bodybuilding is bodybuilding, okay. Everyone has their own goal. I would like to look the best in my gym in 2 years.

But how should I put it? I have to destroy myself in some way. Self-destruction. For many years, I used drugs and opioids for this purpose. But it turned out that bodybuilding got me out of the addiction. And the fact that I consciously shorten my life with steroids, rotating large doses with small ones, only makes me happy And so I have felt for a long time that I have no reason to live at all. And this is probably also a matter of genetics. A bit of philosophical bullshit, but I had to share it.

The genetics of a skinny person. I understand that, I also go through it. 176 pounds is really not much. It's just that advice like "eat more" is not 100% accurate. In the winter, in order to break certain barriers, I really stuffed myself with a ton of food and I simply overdid it, because at some point my belly shape completely disappeared. Now, some skinny genetics and trenbolone have saved the day, but I'm not convinced that stuffing yourself with food until you puke is the best idea. I'm going to approach this as a bit of a surplus now, to gain as little fat as possible this winter. Stuffing yourself with food might make sense if you weigh 150 pounds. And of course, the quality of your food is hugely important, it's obvious, but it's worth mentioning.

Ultimately, you're doing this to be a better you every year, and that means something different to everyone. Besides, you can't quit bodybuilding completely anyway. You ALWAYS come back. The only thing that sometimes is a shame is the money invested in bodybuilding in my case.

 

[kadafi2]

And I have to add: genetics are everything, not only in bodybuilding, but in life in general. Your relationships with people, with women (!), the success you achieve, is largely related to genes, the environment you grow up in, your past and childhood experiences, your sense of self-worth and attractiveness - with hard work you can cheat genetics to some extent, but you can't get past certain things, that's how I see the whole world and the homo sapiens population in general. Someone is dealt two aces in a hand and someone else is dealt two torn deuces, what you do with it is nobody's business but you.

 

[specter]

Its about pushing, how much you want it..
Im a short guy about 5,5" for years i couldnt push past 95-98kg i just couldnt grow bigger, just got fatter, so hooked up with a coach, Jordan Peters and he changed everything i did training vise, food vise, gear vise and bam 107kg in ok condition.. now year later i have no issue gaining, i easily hower around 95kg just on a cruise...

 

[1234trew]

Genetics on gear vs Genetics off gear are two totally different subjects.
Just can't compare the two.

 

[mexbeast]

I don’t mean to be confrontational with my post, so don’t take it that way..

First, I’ll say that of course genetics matter, they matter A LOT. But like Luki said, you can still make great progress and look amazing..

Just look around this board a bit, you’ll see guys cruising on 300-500mg total that look 3-6 weeks out from a show at all times.. Then you’ve got guys blasting everything under the sun with grams of gear and they really are a few weeks out from a show and look like they haven’t even started worrying about dieting/prepping for a show..

I’m sure there are other factors at play there, but you get what I mean..

Now to my other point, and again, I’m not trying to be offensive here but;

I’d love to see an entire day of your eating that equals 4K-5.5k calories.

You’re 176lbs, lean and eating that much and can’t grow??

We’re about the same weight, and I’m pretty lean now too, I do BJJ, lift 5x per week, and average 12-15k steps per day, so a lot of movement, and I get it, people are different, but it’s always been hard to gain for me too, but I’m eating anywhere in the realm of 3k-3400 calories (tracking everything) and it’s A LOT of food (again, for someone my size, I’m sure there’s big guys on here that can eat that in a cheat meal if they really wanted to)..

I’m at around 550g Carbs, 50g Fat, 190g Protein when I hit my goals and it feels like A LOT (trying to get it all from cleaner foods but sometimes I don’t make it).

Are you sure you’re eating that much? Do you track every single thing you eat?

I used to over estimate how much I ate, and it’s actually very common, a lot of people do..

So either you’re a marathon runner/professional athlete, or you have Roman Fritz like freak genetics that just absolutely burns through food like crazy and you can be 7% bodyfat on 1000g Carbs a day, OR, You’re flat out over estimating how much you eat and you’re not eating anywhere near that much food and that’s why you can’t gain..

If you look at he's log he's always sharing pics of fat free food, and also mentioned that he eats no fat at all. It also looks like he doesn't eat too many carbs

 

[NEMSZ]

it sounds to me like you have a low appetite, sub 4000kcal is not much food for a lifter in my opinion. That should go down pretty easily for most when choosing foods that agree with you, no?

yes, im fully aware how much "clean food" that is, ive been measuring and tracking my food the past decade.

Well there are a few caveats;

1) I was dieting down from about 188lbs to get as lean as I could over a few months (not bodybuilder lean, as bodybuilding isn’t my goal, it’s to get into the 190-200lbs weight class for BJJ) to then start growing very slowly and as healthy as possible, so maybe it’s possible my stomach isn’t used to the volume yet from eating significantly less over the last few months.

2) I’m not a large person with a lot of muscle mass, I’m about the same size as OP, so while 4K cals isn’t a lot for bodybuilders on here with a lot of size/muscle etc, for a 176lb guy to say it’s not a lot of food, especially from clean sources? I’d disagree.

If we’re keeping the typical “Bodybuilding diet” of high carb, low fat, moderate protein diet, that’s easily like 700g Carbs, 200g Protein and 50g Fats, that’s not a lot of food for a 175lb guy??

I mean, yea, I can easily eat a burrito with sauces and some Nutella and hit a 1200 cal meal a couple times a day, but if I ate like that my macros would be way off and I’d probably gain a good amount of fat too..

I see guys in here that are SHW eating that much.. Luki has posted many of his competitor’s diets and yes, some guys hit that 1000g carbs a day mark, but there’s a lot in that 750g range and they’re HUGE.. And we know for a 175lb guy to grow, you can do that perfectly on 175-200g protein a day, eating more than that is kind of diminishing returns, I don’t see in any world where a guy that size needs 4-5.5k calories to grow unless he’s working out and moving around like an animal/professional athlete, meaning training intensely all day, almost every day, is his job..

Anyway, I know there’s some caveats here, but I still lean towards OP possibly over estimating how much he’s eating..

 

[NEMSZ]

If you look at he's log he's always sharing pics of fat free food, and also mentioned that he eats no fat at all. It also looks like he doesn't eat too many carbs

Haven’t seen his log, but that’s my bet..

The other day I had a yogurt bowl with 1.5 cups Oikos Vanilla Protein Yogurt, 2 cups Mango Berry frozen fruit, 2 cups Special K Red Berries Cereal, 3 TBSP of Honey, the macros were like 180g Carbs, 46g Protein and low fat..

I WAS STUFFED…

And I realize that’s just a snack for some bigger guys on here..

But again, for a 175lb guy to say they eat 4-5.5k calories and can’t gain??

I’ve been that guy, and I’d bet a lot of us on here were that guy when we were younger thinking we’re eating a ton and we’re not..

It would be the first time ever, that I’ve seen someone that size, eating that much and not able to gain size..

And I hang out on a regular basis with some professional fighters that are literally training all day, 6x per week at a high level and I can’t name one, even guys in the 200+lbs range that eat that much consistently, 5.5k calories is an insane amount of food for a 175lb guy..

 

[massephase]

I don’t see in any world where a guy that size needs 4-5.5k calories to grow unless he’s working out and moving around like an animal/professional athlete, meaning training intensely all day, almost every day, is his job..

I mean it doesn't really matter, if he eats 5k calories and his weight stalls and he still looks good body fat wise, he will have to eat more, simple as that. If he overestimated his calories - it doesn't matter, he still has to eat more.

If OP only got up to 180lbs, then he simply didn't eat enough to gain.

It seems very simple to me and I don't know why we even talk about genetics as a reason in this case.

 

[NEMSZ]

I mean it doesn't really matter, if he eats 5k calories and his weight stalls and he still looks good body fat wise, he will have to eat more, simple as that. If he overestimated his calories - it doesn't matter, he still has to eat more.

If OP only got up to 180lbs, then he simply didn't eat enough to gain.

It seems very simple to me and I don't know why we even talk about genetics as a reason in this case.

I get what you’re saying, and you’re right, it all comes down to eating more.. Reminds me of that old Rich Piana video where he was talking about eating more “Oh you eat 12 meals a day and can’t gain? EAT MORE”

But I was just surprised that no one on here even thought about bringing that up, I’d say a vast majority of guys on here track everything and know how much food 4-5.5k calories from clean foods is, and when I see a 175lb guy saying they eat that much consistently and can’t gain, my immediate thought is “You’re definitely not eating that much consistently”

Surprised no one else thought that..

And I checked the log too, kinda skimmed through it, but seems off to me.. On the first page he’s got tons of fatty meat but only logs 40g of fat for the day, then Pesty asked him about that and he said he cuts the fat and feeds to his dogs and he just estimates the amount of fat??

Well if you’re allegedly tracking everything, why not track the fat too? Makes no sense..

Then the macros for his days are regularly 600-700g Carbs, 350g protein and 30-50g fat yet the portions and foods he posts don’t make sense to have that many calories/macros..

At 350g protein a day on average you’re talking about eating 3lbs of chicken/meat a day and like 30 egg whites, every single day??

To get 700g of carbs from clean foods you’re talking about multiple pounds of potatoes, rice, fruits etc per day..

You’re literally talking about consuming 7-8+lbs of food a day PLUS if he drinks like a gallon of water a day, which I think is the minimum if you’re working out/bodybuilding or anything else, which is another 8.3lbs of fluid in a day…

It doesn’t add up..

I know SHW guys will fluctuate in weight from evening to morning. It’s not unheard of for these big guys to go to bed weighing 290lbs and wake up weighing 282lbs or something like that..

OP is not putting 12-16lbs of Fluid and Food in his body a day at 175lbs and is unable to gain weight, simply impossible…

 

[KingOfSushi]

I don't agree because everyone can achieve size regardless of genetics, I am the best example - I have really shitty genetics both when it comes to shape and difficulty in gaining muscle and strength, but I managed to gain almost 300lbs with about 10% body fat and I am sure that everyone can be really big and lean if they do everything properly - only if you don't have genetics, sooner or later you will pay a high price for your health

My first question when I see post like this…

@PhillD whats the most you’ve weighed? If you want to be bigger, you need to eat more. You’re shredded year round. You don’t need to get fat, but you need to gain weight if you want more size. Sure luki is shredded year round. But he took the time to add the size to get there.

How d

I think the defining factor here is how big and how lean?

There is a big difference between being gym big and Olympia big. I don't think everyone can be Jay Cutler or Kai Greene's size on stage, otherwise many industry vets who never turned pro or barely turned pro after many years would all be monsters in size that rival those people.

-You have great genetics for tolerating the dosages that you have taken without getting multi system issues (including psychological issues which we will see way more of in the coming years with this upcoming generation).

-You have great discipline that allows you to diet up and down to the extremes for decades without losing your mind (some people have intense ghrelin signaling which makes them binge and develop eating disorders in this environment).

-You have good genetics for tolerating heavy and intense training for decades without physically breaking down.

Genetics are way more complex and integrated within human systems than most people can and will ever give credit, because bodybuilding inherently is a merit and effort based sport.

I guess the older I get, the more I'm shifting my understanding towards the importance of nature within nurture. Now this doesn't mean that the average person or competitor is even close to reaching their true potential, but once the foundations of that (intense individualized training, monk like eating, and drug usage to the ability of your body's tolerance) are laid down, genetics will determine much of how big and how beautiful the final construction is.

Sure, but let’s be real.

OP can surely get bigger than 176. He just needs to add weight.

 

[AllLoadedUp]

Genetics are 90% in my opinion. Now I will be the first to admit over the years I was never the strictest about my diet or anything else. Always trained though. At one point I was 300lbs. But I looked awful. Just looked like a big bloated blob. Even at 300lbs people thought I weighed like 220lbs though. As a rule if you gain 15lbs of bodyweight I believe that should translate into I think one inch on your arm size. Guess what I gained 45lbs and my arms grew like 1/2 an inch. Talk about absolute shit genetics. My neck was like 24 inches at one point, my arms like 18.5 inches and my calves probably 15 inches. Horrible. I knew very early on there was zero reason for me to ever waste my time trying to step on a stage. Would have been a joke. So I'm just a guy who lifts.

But you get what you get. Nothing you can do about it. Its like dick size. You get what you get. Not a damn thing you can do about it. You either have that "look" or you don't. I don't care what drugs, food, training or anything else you do. If you don't have that "look" then you are never gonna have it. Can you get bigger or lean? Well hell yeh. Anybody can do either. That don't mean you will ever have that "look". That's genetic. End of story.

 

[KingOfSushi]

My first question when I see post like this…

@PhillD whats the most you’ve weighed? If you want to be bigger, you need to eat more. You’re shredded year round. You don’t need to get fat, but you need to gain weight if you want more size. Sure luki is shredded year round. But he took the time to add the size to get there.

How do you expect to be, say, 220lbs lean if you just stay around 190-200lbs for example?

Agreed completely

 

[hawkmoon]

Already there are a lot of great responses in this thread but I’ll lend my 2 cents.

As mentioned, genetics means many things:

• Maximum muscle mass potential
• Muscle shape, insertions, belly fullness, etc
• Ability to get and stay lean
• Recovery ability
• Ability to process and survive PEDs (these are not the same thing)
• Ability to be consistent over long periods of time despite the drudgery (maybe even enjoy it)
• Do all the above and maintain low stress levels, both physical and mental
• Robust health in adverse conditions

There are some people who will hit their ceiling fairly early. I know people who do everything right and cross every T, dot every I and still cannot grow beyond a certain point. I know people who take a lot of gear and can’t grow a fraction of people on less (in these cases as far back as the 80s and 90s I know for certain as I was their supplier).

Part of the frustration comes from measuring ourselves against the top-most genetic elite. If you love the sport that’s unavoidable. Those people will grow and look amazing no matter what they do – it’s unfair to compare.

We forget how big we look compared to the regular person. Take a moment to look at yourself in a group shot with regular people. If you are being objective and honest with yourself, you probably look bigger than you think. I always think I look small and soft.

Only after you have done everything right for years can you fully assess yourself and your genetic potential. We have all seen skinny young Arnold and Levrone pictures, it takes time – though certainly a lot less for some. If that time is spent without careful evaluation it could be wasted so log and track.

My genetics are probably just slightly above average, but it’s the 40+ years of consistent effort that allows me to look the way I do at 55 without aching joints and nagging pains or health issues (knock on wood). Slow, steady progression. Always starting conservative and slowly marching upwards, only changing one variable at a time. I’m the kind of person that gets lost in the process, locked in and with tunnel vision – a genetic advantage.

Do an honest self-assessment. Measure everything you do and look for weaknesses, then you can start to think about your genetic limits.

 

[carbs]

Genetics are king
Frame and bone structure, then go from there

Freaks look good when they are young, before they even pick up a weight.
Then you add weights and food, and they look amazing before they even used PEDs.
Then you add PEDs and then it's wow.

 

[neutrino]

Yo fellas,

Been hittin’ the iron religiously for damn more than a decade now. Eating clean, sleeping like a monk, training like my life depends on it. No parties, no BS. Just gym, meals, and grind. But here’s the kicker — I’m still lookin’ like a natty intermediate at best.

Meanwhile I see dudes poppin' up with half my discipline, juiced to the gills on test, tren, slin, GH.. and yeah, I get it, they respond like freakin' mutants. Some of these guys touch a barbell and blow up like balloons. Genetics hittin’ the jackpot.

So here’s the million-dollar question:
Is passion and discipline really enough in this game? Or is this sport just a genetic lottery where the only way to compete is with a fat stack and a god-tier DNA roll?

I'm not tryna whine — just tryna keep it real.
What y’all think?

Anyone here not genetically blessed but still made it to freak-status?
Do the drugs just widen the gap between good and great?
Is insulin even worth it if your body ain't a hyper-responder?
At what point do you say "f*** it" and either blast or quit?

Let’s hear the truth, no sugarcoatin’.

Stay huge or die tryin’

I can't begin to tell you how many people I have come across that:

1. Say they train hard, but in reality they don't. Maybe they train hard in their mind or in comparison to those around them, but if you are surrounded by people that are all less-developed than you, how could you form a reasonable conclusion if what you are doing is truly enough.
2. Say they sleep well, but clearly their days are filled with stress/anxiety....and they have never taken the time to do a sleep study to really put some numbers and evidence to their conclusion.
3. Say they eat enough (for many that just means "full/satiated"), but have never taken the time to actually track their calories and tinker with daily totals by pushing food up and down.
4. Say they eat clean, but they really don't.

I am not saying any of these apply to you, but what I am saying is that - from the looks of it - it may be beneficial at this point to hire a second set of eyes. Find yourself a good coach and spend a few months working with him/her before you arrive to the conclusion that you may be at your limit and you have done everything you possibly can (beyond pinning with a turkey baster).

And yes, genetics do matter, however I would keep that notion out of your mind. To me that thought is only beneficial in the realm of creating excuses and imposing limits on yourself. Forget the genetics component....and hit every switch you possibly can.

 

[Josefein421]

I would bet the vast majority of us on here (guys like Luki, Brad, etc aside) have not hit or even come close to their genetic limit in both size and condition.

I think most think it is a lack of perfect drug cocktail first and then training minutia. However I bet diet is is the 2nd biggest causative factor behind consistency. And not for 12 weeks, not for a year but for years plural. Day in and day out. Dusty is another example of eking the most out of your genetic limits but look how he did it.. day after day grind since at least as long as I have followed him which was 2005. JP yes talks about the drugs but there is no denying the man lives the life every single day and prioritizes it.

I think if OP (or any of us) locked in with total commitment every day to every facet of the process especially under the guidance of a great coach we could make exponential progress in a 3 years time.

OP signs up with Luki and works with him just a single year and does everything he says I bet he is much bigger than 176 and in better condition July 4, 2026.