Has anyone lowered test dose from 20mg to 10mg per day?

[emeric delczeg]

Honestly, not very well. The muscles went down because no PCT and my natural test is very low. I was frightened of HTC 60 and I quit everything too fast.... terrible period, fatigue, bad life

But now I take 15 days pharma GH 3iu / day and 4 days test e 10mg / day and I feel much better this day. I even had an erection this morning ....I pray that HTC stays down.

Try the Humanofort instead the GH , 300mg per day.

 

[emeric delczeg]

Guys have bullshitted quite a lot on here about coming fully off over the years. They act like they can maintain their physique on nothing for years. It's nonsense. I see these days people are more honest about this stuff but there are still a few who lie on social media. I think for some of them they consider TRT (probably a high dose from a clinic in the US) coming off everything. Well they don't consider it as they know it's not but that's how they word things when talking/posting about it. Many also consider loading themselves up with PCT drugs and HCG for 1-2 months as coming fully off.

It's very easy to maintain even a big physique on approx 200mg test per week. The same for 140mg or even 70mg... it's very possible. Although I don't think 70mg will suit everyone and some have even come back with low levels at that dose. Sure dosing it daily is improving the efficiency and it can make a huge difference in results and minimizing potential side effects. However at the end of the day 70mg is still 70mg and some simply need more for optimal levels of total/free testosterone. I personally cruise on 150mg test e/c per week or if I can be bothered 20mg test p ed.

It's night and day when you come off everything though. Sometimes I don't feel too bad but I don't stay off that long. Everytime though my joints will feel horrible and my energy levels will be low. Last time I done it I thought to myself still train just as hard and I drove my body into the ground. Sure you can maintain weight on nothing but it won't look the same. Obviously it's not like a freak of 5ft 8 250 pounds super lean is not still going to look great after 6 months off nothing if diet and training or on point. But that on look is due to simply being on and with zero test you will soften up and just not have the same look and definitely not the same mentality.

You know all of that though and it's not like you would ever come off TRT so you are gtg. I honestly don't think coming down to 70mg per week will change your blood work that much. But give it ago as you only know if you try. See for yourself and you don't have anything to lose. Well maybe a few pounds but I am sure that would be the max and you would have it back within a few weeks of having normal-high testosterone levels.

I am on 40mg per week, but I am 67 , I do have erections every single day, and I can get erected any time. The 40mg or the 70mg will not cuase problem to the prostate.

 

[Serotonin]

I stopped all AAS for 9 months due to critically high hemoglobin. I too lost most of my muscle and felt achy everywhere, put on a lot of fat in the sides of the lower back, etc.
I just started HRT yesterday.
My aches and pains are already much better.
I didn’t sleep much because i can tell my adrenaline is way up.
I kept waking up every hour to drink water. I couldn’t get enough water.
My heart is beating harder and faster.
I feel more alive but snap quickly at idiots.
My blood pressure is way up so I started my strict diet today.
Time to get back to looking good.
My HRT is self prescribed, 15mg test prop, 15mg test phenylprop, 15mg nandrolone phenylprop, EOD injects subcutaneous.

All of that is normal with AAS, they hype up your CNS pretty drastically and I noticed this as I got older. Not so much when I was younger but these drugs are very very powerful hence our bloodwork and moods being altered.

I mean no disrespect but the short esters and addition of nandralone make me question whether or not this is truly considered TRT

 

[Massive G]

You are not still taking M2 are you?
I know you have probably read them but Dante has had some good posts on "normal" hematocrit levels for bb'ers, my hematologist who I have been seeing for 10 years keeps me at 55, whereas previous hemos tried to draw me under 50 to 45. to be fair, I think the levels changed from 45 to 50 since then for upper limits.
My hemo also told me that the only blood test that is accurate for iron rbc etc is vein puncture.

 

[Massive G]

Also for me I go back and forth on subq cycles TRT 10 mg a day up to 30 mg a day then a couple times a year will subq cycle a mix of test deca esters up to 300 mg a week total and everything stays the same - been down that road when I came off everything for months just did HCG HMG clomid and hemo never changed, the doc says my body is conditioned to make RBC's...and it's unsafe to draw me down below 50....I still get a pint off every 3 months.

 

[nothuman]

You are not still taking M2 are you?
I know you have probably read them but Dante has had some good posts on "normal" hematocrit levels for bb'ers, my hematologist who I have been seeing for 10 years keeps me at 55, whereas previous hemos tried to draw me under 50 to 45. to be fair, I think the levels changed from 45 to 50 since then for upper limits.
My hemo also told me that the only blood test that is accurate for iron rbc etc is vein puncture.

Also for me I go back and forth on subq cycles TRT 10 mg a day up to 30 mg a day then a couple times a year will subq cycle a mix of test deca esters up to 300 mg a week total and everything stays the same - been down that road when I came off everything for months just did HCG HMG clomid and hemo never changed, the doc says my body is conditioned to make RBC's...and it's unsafe to draw me down below 50....I still get a pint off every 3 months.

I haven't used MT2 in two years but I don't think that was spiking my hematocrit back then since I was using a low amount looking back on it. I WANTED it to be the cause since that could have solved the problem.

55 hematocrit seems to be safe for people on TRT as long as platelets and WBC aren't elevated and the person doesn't have Factor V. However, 55 leaves no room for error in case it increases from there and then you don't get bloodwork in time to realize. Ideally, 50 is a safe zone because in the case it does increase, you have time to donate before being in the danger zone.

Sucks your hemo didn't go down after you went through the trouble and roller coaster of coming off. That is what I'd be terrified of. Doing something that drastic for nothing.

 

[Massive G]

I tried a low iron diet too and suffered for it , no drop in hemo, but other sides were terrible hair loss fatigue etc. doc says over drawing RBC's is very dangerous as well....past hemo tried to get me down taking 2 pints a week...left me really fked up too. Had genetic testing, bone marrow biopsy even blood withdrawn mixed with radioactive tracers and scanned and all normal, EPO levels check etc.
I do cardio I treat my sleep apnea and take bromelain to keep clot formation down amongst other things and stay as hyrated as I can.

 

[nothuman]

I tried a low iron diet too and suffered for it , no drop in hemo, but other sides were terrible hair loss fatigue etc. doc says over drawing RBC's is very dangerous as well....past hemo tried to get me down taking 2 pints a week...left me really fked up too. Had genetic testing, bone marrow biopsy even blood withdrawn mixed with radioactive tracers and scanned and all normal, EPO levels check etc.
I do cardio I treat my sleep apnea and take bromelain to keep clot formation down amongst other things and stay as hyrated as I can.

It really sounds like so many endos or hematologists don't fully understand the rising RBC issue on people who do TRT.

My new endo sounded pretty certain beet juice and eating a pound of grass fed beef a day won't touch H/H levels.

On the other hand, he told me to stop doing daily shots because he said one injection per week keeps hematocrit from rising, which most people seem to think the opposite is true.

Last year I saw a rude nasty hematologist who told me I need phlebotomies every week when my hematocrit was 52 and didn't even bother to check my ferritin.

 

[Delt123]

It really sounds like so many endos or hematologists don't fully understand the rising RBC issue on people who do TRT.

My new endo sounded pretty certain beet juice and eating a pound of grass fed beef a day won't touch H/H levels.

On the other hand, he told me to stop doing daily shots because he said one injection per week keeps hematocrit from rising, which most people seem to think the opposite is true.

Last year I saw a rude nasty hematologist who told me I need phlebotomies every week when my hematocrit was 52 and didn't even bother to check my ferritin.

I thought that shorter esters caused a faster rise in hemo and or hct, Maybe it is due to the fast peaks which you're getting from daily injections too?

 

[Crazy_jay]

I ended up iron deficient from donating double reds every chance I was available with red cross within a year. Ferritin level was 14, hematocrit was still 49 but lower than the typical 52-53 I sit at. With exogenous test, you can still get high hemoglobin and hematocrit with low ferritin levels, rbcs just wont form probably and rdw will be high. Funny thing, high or low hemoglobin is associated with iron levels, so when red cross checks your "iron levels", they are really only checking hemoglobin and they'll tell you your iron levels look good even if they are tanked because of the forced hemo production from testosterone. Those were some crappy times.

I dont donate anymore, no idea where my hematocrit is, blood pressure is good. I thought the point of steroids were to increase red blood cells which increases oxygen through the body for more endurance and recovery. Whole reason they inject horses with eq and why cyclists blood dope. Why negate that by donating? Are there any studies that show high hematocrit caused by steroid use is bad? I know high hematocrit is bad in normal people but I'll guess a "normal" person with high hematocrit has a lot more going on than just high hematocrit.

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[Massive G]

It really sounds like so many endos or hematologists don't fully understand the rising RBC issue on people who do TRT.

My new endo sounded pretty certain beet juice and eating a pound of grass fed beef a day won't touch H/H levels.

On the other hand, he told me to stop doing daily shots because he said one injection per week keeps hematocrit from rising, which most people seem to think the opposite is true.

Last year I saw a rude nasty hematologist who told me I need phlebotomies every week when my hematocrit was 52 and didn't even bother to check my ferritin.

I have been through the ringer myself....4 hemos in 15 years - started seeing one when I couldn't donate enough and was heavy cycling.
I went in dehydrated after a workout for a morning draw and was 58 - freaking guy sent me to the hospital for emergency advice - I drank 2000 mls water while waiting 4 hours they pulled complete bloodwork while there hemo was 51% called back over and then ran another blood test 30 minutes later to confirm and it was 50% ...the ER doc came out redfaced was embarassed for the hemo that he was on the phone with...I was livid I said I told that m'fker I was dehydrated now 6 hours later 18 hours fasted bet my blood sugar is low ...does he wanna test me for hypo? the ER doc laughed..never saw that hemo again ...another refused to treat me because I was a bodybuilder and said she refused to treat me because steroids were the cause of my high rbc and she wasn't going to treat self-inflicted damage...

WTH?? there were tons of people in there on oxygen from smoking damage...jesus it's only gonna get worse.

 

[nothuman]

I thought that shorter esters caused a faster rise in hemo and or hct, Maybe it is due to the fast peaks which you're getting from daily injections too?

I'm using cyp. I haven't seen any evidence or anecdotal reports showing prop raises RBC production more than cyp.

If someone has personal experience though, please share

 

[nothuman]

I have been through the ringer myself....4 hemos in 15 years - started seeing one when I couldn't donate enough and was heavy cycling.
I went in dehydrated after a workout for a morning draw and was 58 - freaking guy sent me to the hospital for emergency advice - I drank 2000 mls water while waiting 4 hours they pulled complete bloodwork while there hemo was 51% called back over and then ran another blood test 30 minutes later to confirm and it was 50% ...the ER doc came out redfaced was embarassed for the hemo that he was on the phone with...I was livid I said I told that m'fker I was dehydrated now 6 hours later 18 hours fasted bet my blood sugar is low ...does he wanna test me for hypo? the ER doc laughed..never saw that hemo again ...another refused to treat me because I was a bodybuilder and said she refused to treat me because steroids were the cause of my high rbc and she wasn't going to treat self-inflicted damage...

WTH?? there were tons of people in there on oxygen from smoking damage...jesus it's only gonna get worse.

This story actually just made me livid myself

 

[Bobik]

I ended up iron deficient from donating double reds every chance I was available with red cross within a year. Ferritin level was 14, hematocrit was still 49 but lower than the typical 52-53 I sit at. With exogenous test, you can still get high hemoglobin and hematocrit with low ferritin levels, rbcs just wont form probably and rdw will be high. Funny thing, high or low hemoglobin is associated with iron levels, so when red cross checks your "iron levels", they are really only checking hemoglobin and they'll tell you your iron levels look good even if they are tanked because of the forced hemo production from testosterone. Those were some crappy times.

I dont donate anymore, no idea where my hematocrit is, blood pressure is good. I thought the point of steroids were to increase red blood cells which increases oxygen through the body for more endurance and recovery. Whole reason they inject horses with eq and why cyclists blood dope. Why negate that by donating? Are there any studies that show high hematocrit caused by steroid use is bad? I know high hematocrit is bad in normal people but I'll guess a "normal" person with high hematocrit has a lot more going on than just high hematocrit.

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I don't know if bad, but .... I had a hematocrit 60. Everything great in the gym, big pump and power, felt very good. But the rest of the day tired, headache and high blood pressure. I felt something was happening and going on blood. Hematocrit was 60 and hemoglobin 200. Certainly not good for good feeling and health.

 

[Delt123]

I'm using cyp. I haven't seen any evidence or anecdotal reports showing prop raises RBC production more than cyp.

If someone has personal experience though, please share

'indeed, others have postulated that the increased rates of polycythemia with short-acting testosterone esters are due to supraphysiological levels of testosterone (1, 4, 5). If true, longer acting testosterone preparations such as testosterone implants and i.m. injections of testosterone undecanoate, which do not cause prolonged supraphysiological testosterone levels when administered at appropriate doses (6), may therefore result in a lesser degree of erythrocytosis. In support of this hypothesis, direct relationships between testosterone and hematocrit have already been demonstrated (2, 3, 7).'

https://eje.bioscientifica.com/view/journals/eje/162/2/385.xml

^I couldn't watch it on my phone tho.

Maybe you could hypothesis that the frequent injections you're doing are causing bigger spikes than only 1 shot per week would?

 

[Crazy_jay]

I don't know if bad, but .... I had a hematocrit 60. Everything great in the gym, big pump and power, felt very good. But the rest of the day tired, headache and high blood pressure. I felt something was happening and going on blood. Hematocrit was 60 and hemoglobin 200. Certainly not good for good feeling and health.

Did you donate blood? Did it relieve symptoms? Some guys claim they feel so much better after donating, that it's like an oil change. I have never felt any different after donating.

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[Bobik]

Did you donate blood? Did it relieve symptoms? Some guys claim they feel so much better after donating, that it's like an oil change. I have never felt any different after donating.

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Yes, of course, I wrote my experience on page two in this thread..

 

[Kid Dynamite]

I thought that shorter esters caused a faster rise in hemo and or hct, Maybe it is due to the fast peaks which you're getting from daily injections too?

Im wondering now if thats why mine is high.. I get prescribed 300mg weekly of test cyp, but Ive been adding 50mg of prop M-W-F on top of that.
I think I am going to come off the prop, give some more blood, and get my bloods done again in another month.

 

[Elvia1023]

I am on 40mg per week, but I am 67 , I do have erections every single day, and I can get erected any time. The 40mg or the 70mg will not cuase problem to the prostate.

Thanks for that info I never stated otherwise. I agree if a guy can get away with 70mg or even 40mg TRT then great. All I meant was I have seen a few guys post stating 10mg ed had their levels too low. I am sure for the majority of people 10mg ed is more than enough to get by and feel good etc. I tried 10mg ed for a short time and I felt fine. Perhaps others may require a little more to be in the good side of normal range. I would rather my levels be quite high so I stick to 20mg per day when cruising. Although I am all for the 10mg ed protocol if someone wants to do that and I feel it's a great approach.

I don't think there can be definites when it comes to TRT and the prostate. But sure I would assume 70mg is better for the prostate than 140mg or 210mg etc but I don't think you can outright say any dose will not cause prostate problems. I get why you do but it's even be shown test (trt) can play an important part in treating BPH/LUTS in older men. There is little evidence actual TRT will lead to prostate problems but the possibility is always there especially when it's a normal thing for any aging male trt or not. Interestingly castration or androgen deprivation treatments should definitely lead to decreases in prostate size but I don't think there are any definites with trt as it can go either way.

 

[Thaistick]

I am on 40mg per week, but I am 67 , I do have erections every single day, and I can get erected any time. The 40mg or the 70mg will not cuase problem to the prostate.

You know the rules. No pics of the "alleged" erection or it didn't happen.