HAVE WE LOST THE SCIENCE OF TRAINING??

LATS · Jul 24, 2002

I LOVE BODYBUILDING. I LIVE FOR IT. I EVEN OWN GYMS JUST SO I CAN BE AROUND IT 24-7. but one thing bothers me. it is the lost art/science of training. i remember (i am going to be dating myself a little lol) seeing dene tornabene, a great bodybuilder in the eighties and extremely knowledgable, at the golds in venice. he was a power/bodybuilder. he relied on the science of hypertrophy. every movement had a purpose. if he did benches , it was for low reps and explosive to hit the type 2b fiber. i saw him do bench press and he would do a desending rep scheme from 7 to 2. or maybe just 5 sets of 5. then the next movement would be more of a hypertrophy scheme. this would consists of sets of 8 to 12 reps done in a very controlled fashion. lastly he would pick a movement that stimulated the capillaries and help with glycogen storage. sets of 15 to 20 or more.
i only bring this up after hearing a top national competitor tell me it did not matter what he did because his theory was that all he had to do was create trauma to the tissue and let the drugs and protein do the work. now, i am not saying he is lying. he is right on the money. but disheartening nonetheless. how do we know what works???? does hit work?? you bet. does volume training work?? yes again. all are part of a greater whole. now not all are ignorant trainers. phil , big a and many others are very knowledgable in what works.. but, most of us have no rhyme or reason as to why we do what we do. some of us read a magazine and see a routine and give it a try. will it work?? yes, for a while. all work to some extent. but, we really have not progressed much in knowledge of muscular hypertrophy.
anecdotal evidence is what we go by. there is nothing wrong with that but, we can do better. if all bodybuilders and strength athletes put as much time into researching hypertrophy as we do researching anabolics, we would be on to something. can you imagine the perfect hypertrophy routine with the perfect stack. gains out the ass. now do not get me wrong ... i like the fact that i can create a little trauma, eat alot of protein and grow. but, i still miss the science of what makes us grow.
all the top pros train the same (or atleast most)..3-4 sets of about 3 or 4 movements for 8 to 10 reps ect. one thing is very different. the amount of weight they use. the reason that ronnie is ronnie is because he is a strong s.o.b. and can do a tremendous amount of reps with that mind boggling weight. but, most of the pros were strong to begin with. i have seen aaron baker do 405 for very good reps in the incline. now, how many of us could do that in all our time in the weight room... not many of us. that is how they get their mass. but, they are genetically strong. we , on the other hand, have to figure out the best ways to accomplish our muscle buiilding and strength goals.
okay, i am done rambling....all i am saying is that the art of training is lost.........

Pusher · Jul 24, 2002

My thoughts exactly.

I think a lot of guys brainwash themselves, they just copy their favorite pro's "routine" out of FLEX or Muscle&Fitness and really don't ever learn how to train. They never really learn *what* does *what*.

doug1 · Jul 25, 2002

hey lats, i'm glad i'm not the only one that feels exactly the same way that you do. i have been training for over fifteen years and am always reading and trying to learn more about training methods. it certainly takes a back seat to whatever drug stack is being used with most guys today. the posting validates this.

xcelbeyond · Jul 25, 2002

Great post bro.

Some more reinforcement for my signature

xcel

JETHRO TULL · Jul 25, 2002

LATS....I ENJOY EACH OF YOUR POSTS.

KEEP UP THE GOOD WORK.

Pusher · Jul 25, 2002

LATS said:
i only bring this up after hearing a top national competitor tell me it did not matter what he did because his theory was that all he had to do was create trauma to the tissue and let the drugs and protein do the work. now, i am not saying he is lying. he is right on the money. but disheartening .........

This is exactly why guys like Flex Wheeler, Paul Dillet, and Cormier need trainers...guy's to tell them what to do & what to focus on. Guy's who can train at 50% intensity with a handfull of exercises and still place ahead of 90% of the competetion.

stevehnsn · Jul 25, 2002

Fo' Real...

Give a man a training program, watch him grow for weeks.
Teach a man how & why to train, watch him grow for years.
Same thing goes for nutrition.

MikeS · Jul 25, 2002

Even though Ronnie was always a strong powerlifter, look at what alot of drugs did for him. It sort of is a shame, the truth is a gifted guy will grow like crazy on drugs. More so than just what good hard, heavy training routine will do for him. To me, to be a champ, you must have: good genetics that allow growth/strength; ability to take in and absorb huge amounts of nutrients; and be very responsive to drugs.
And it seems like genetically gifted guys grow no matter what they do. I see some guys do heavy lifts for one bodypart, light-reps for a different bodypart, and they grow fantastic just the same either way. Now I know that with poor-average genetics-I have to train heavy at all times, maybe finishing up with some moderate-high reps for holistic training. You have to figure, as everyone knows, what works for you if you are not gifted.
Good post Lats!

Johan · Jul 25, 2002

Bodybuilding seems very poorly developed when it comes to the science of the whole thing.
Powerlifting on the other that that is a sport that constantly develops. I recomend all(both bodybuilders and powerlifters) to read the articles on http://www.elitefitnesssystems.com/
there is a welth of knowledge there(not to mention that the powerlifters are pretty damn huge fellows).

I wish there was people like dave tate and louie simmons in bodybuilding.

LATS · Jul 25, 2002

I AGREE. ONE THING THAT POWERLIFTING HAS THAT WE, AS BODYBUILDERS, NEED TO INCORPORATE IS THE ART OF SELF CONTROL. POWERLIFTERS GIVE THEMSELVES TIME TO MAKE THEIR GAINS. we on the other hand have a tendency to make each workout a all or nothing endevor. the human body can not do that time after time. even with a day off in between the nervous system will take on more than it can handle. if you notice, most pros do not turn up the intensity till 12 weeks before a show. the rest of the year are semi-lazy workouts. heavy and progressive put restrained.
of course, if you take the idea of progressive resistance as being the corner stone of aquiring mass, then we most adapt powerlifting methods to our bodybuilding. each workout would have a meaning. it would be the idea of slow progression to get to the poundages that are required for the mass we are after.
now that being said, most powerlifters are not nearly as big as most bodybuilders. so there has to be something more. that more is the amount of reps and the time under tension. so realistically we would have to implement powerlifting measures for each bodypart (to see the poundages needed to aquire the mass) but, with more attention paid to the reps. good controlled reps that have us getting a fair amount of time under tension.
but again, our biggest downfall is the idea that every workout has to be a battle of the nervous system. the do or die mentality. it is a great mentality to have but, it has to be reined in sometimes. give the body the stimulous it needs but. leave a little in the "tank" for next time so that we can move up in poundage. make sure the reps are in the 30 second range for our time under tension requirements and we might be on to something. especially for us "not so gifted " individuals.lol
that leaves the question of volume. that is almost strictly a individual matter. depends on your ability to recover and even other outside stresses such as sleep and eating. i am currently going over a study done in the czech republic years ago about volume. ill condense it and post it later.

Adonis89 · May 20, 2013

I think for the average bodybuilder, the ease of additional injections and the now affordable costs of gear and GH has lessened the desire to get the most out of the actual training element.

I still look at bodybuilding as an art, a discipline, a science and a lifestyle. Anabolics are just a tool that's part of the mix. A lot of bbers now act like plain addicts.

robertfhub · May 21, 2013

So pretty much most people are relying on drugs too much? I guess Id have to agree. With so much access and choice its inevitable.
Still The Smart Ones know not to do that.

MightyJohn · May 21, 2013

I agree 100% this is a great thread....the "stigma" that any well built guy is on juice is rampant as well...had a guy early 20's, kinda well built come up to Me today and ask if I compete...I told him I did 10yrs ago...he said he does to but "he's NGA natural" throwing it in My face and quickly walked away..I just smiled and went on with My workout LOL

TheOtherOne55 · May 21, 2013

Johan said:
Bodybuilding seems very poorly developed when it comes to the science of the whole thing.
Powerlifting on the other that that is a sport that constantly develops. I recomend all(both bodybuilders and powerlifters) to read the articles on Bodybuilding: Anabolic Steroids, EliteFitness.com
there is a welth of knowledge there(not to mention that the powerlifters are pretty damn huge fellows).

I wish there was people like dave tate and louie simmons in bodybuilding.

Wrong link...

It's EliteFTS - Powerlifting and Strength Training Products and Knowledge for Lifters, Athletes, Coaches, and Trainers not elitefitness...

Simpllyhuge · May 21, 2013

Nice thread, I agree. Lots of people take lots of drugs and don't know what hard training is. It's like we back tracked. Power lifters still keep a lot of the old programs alive thou.

TheOtherOne55 · May 21, 2013

I completely understand this thread and I agree that powerlifters look at training through a very unique eye.

I think a lot of bodybuilders push away the research/science of it because bodybuilding has no real finite measurement....Sure you can say the scale is moving or "My arms are bigger" but there are so many ways to get there that believe will tell themselves anything.

In PL, it's simple...did I press 430 today? or did I press 440? Is the weight increasing? Simple as that.

I personally love the science of it. I still belong to multiple training research reviews websites (Alan Aragon as well as Brett Contreras have GREAT ones).

sma · May 21, 2013

Yep agree w/ all the above powerlifting has great programs 5/3/1 etc bodybuilding seems like hit and miss and most spin there wheels. I could care less about anabolics for me it's always been about training it gives me such a sense of well being and almost a high everytime I take a set to failure, that is what I'm addicted to . Over the years I've realized that I actually over did it and didn't recover from work outs. But it was very hard to stay out of the gym until I saw results besides that for just keeping intensity high and reps specific for muscle fibres of particular body part made a difference. All in all I think the simplest programs are the most effective, compound movers w/ a touch of isolation as long as your muscle is failing should be more then enough for hyper trophy but that's my opinion and personality. I use to do the complex programs it got me nowhere

Sylva · May 21, 2013

LATS said:
I AGREE. ONE THING THAT POWERLIFTING HAS THAT WE, AS BODYBUILDERS, NEED TO INCORPORATE IS THE ART OF SELF CONTROL. POWERLIFTERS GIVE THEMSELVES TIME TO MAKE THEIR GAINS. we on the other hand have a tendency to make each workout a all or nothing endevor. the human body can not do that time after time. even with a day off in between the nervous system will take on more than it can handle. if you notice, most pros do not turn up the intensity till 12 weeks before a show. the rest of the year are semi-lazy workouts. heavy and progressive put restrained.
of course, if you take the idea of progressive resistance as being the corner stone of aquiring mass, then we most adapt powerlifting methods to our bodybuilding. each workout would have a meaning. it would be the idea of slow progression to get to the poundages that are required for the mass we are after. now that being said, most powerlifters are not nearly as big as most bodybuilders. so there has to be something more. that more is the amount of reps and the time under tension. so realistically we would have to implement powerlifting measures for each bodypart (to see the poundages needed to aquire the mass) but, with more attention paid to the reps. good controlled reps that have us getting a fair amount of time under tension.
but again, our biggest downfall is the idea that every workout has to be a battle of the nervous system. the do or die mentality. it is a great mentality to have but, it has to be reined in sometimes. give the body the stimulous it needs but. leave a little in the "tank" for next time so that we can move up in poundage. make sure the reps are in the 30 second range for our time under tension requirements and we might be on to something. especially for us "not so gifted " individuals.lol
that leaves the question of volume. that is almost strictly a individual matter. depends on your ability to recover and even other outside stresses such as sleep and eating. i am currently going over a study done in the czech republic years ago about volume. ill condense it and post it later.

In my first 3 years this is how I trained with maybe 1-2 exercises for blood volume at the end of a training session. I have never seen better results then when I was progressing up through the poundages with the Iron. The last year or more I've been training more the traditional "bodybuilder" way as you desribed above and in comparison I'm not as impressed with the results. I have a contest in a few days but after that, for the off season and beyond i'll be going back to the combined "powerbuilding" workouts that I loved so much and loved the results even more.