HAVE WE LOST THE SCIENCE OF TRAINING??

[JonnyO]

With most of my workouts it's basically the same. Heavy weight for 3-4 sets the drop set until I literally cannot do another. For my last contest prep I would train for an hour and a half 5-6 days a week not counting cardio. When I leave the gym I feel like I have ran a marathon.

There are so many guys that preach there is no need for more than 45min and 3 sets with each muscle group..... I'm sorry did you see a vein pop out in your workout and decide that was enough? :facepalm:

I train 7 out of 9 days, thats my roation because of my work schedule is 4 on, 5 off. Sometimes 7 days in a row, sometimes a day off in the middle. Im in contest prep right now as well, 4 weeks to the show and I train for at least an hour and a half with 30 mins fasted cardio in the mornings. Theres no over training here and I am actually growing into the show.

 

[homonunculus]

Yep.. As I just told one of the members.. Many want the muscles.. But don't want the journey.. " just give em too me"... Trust me they mean much more when they are fought for tooth and nail..

I guess I coulda just said, "Everybody wanna be a bodybuilder, but nobody wanna lift no heavy ass weight!!!"

So, here's a thought, to keep this thread running.

PREMISE: One wants to incorporate a holistic style of training, meaning that heavy (<8rep), moderate (say 8-12reps) and "light" (12-15 and upward) weights are incorporated, to bring about the respective adaptations afforded by stimuli and stress of those different kinds of loading...

[There was a program years ago called "Holistic Training" where for each muscle group, a set in each range was done in each workout.]

For those that have taken this "holistic" have you compared:

1.) Different rep ranges on different days, e.g., Heavy days and Light days

vs.

2.) Different rep ranges on the SAME days

vs.

3.) Periodizing rep range approaches, e.g., in a typical "hypertrophy / strength / power" (Matveyev) type of progression?...

If so, what has been more effective?...

SECONDARY QUESTION: Just as there is known to be interference with hypertrophy from endurance exercise, would you have concern that employing different rep ranges could dampen the overall growth response?... Or would it perhaps enhance it?... (I have thoughts here, but would like to hear from others... )

-S

 

[Cerberus777]

I typically do the DC 2 way. I start new exersizes in the "light" range. And drop when I can't compleat in the Heavy range. So I'm always doing diffrent rep ranges. I see contiued growth from this. Maybe a little more in the 10-8 range.

 

[Simpllyhuge]

What does the 2 way mean.

 

[Cerberus777]

This is a great thread BTW. I don't have a problem with people doing doses that the need to do to progress. But I think you should train and eat youself (and give the body time)to maximize what you are taking. I know gear is easy, training is hard. To me training is the best part. I'd rather wonder if I change this or that in my program will I grow vs the obvious if I add more CC's

 

[Cerberus777]

What does the 2 way mean.

DC is the style of training, the 2way and the 3way are how the 2 different splits are called, homonunculus could probably tell you a lot more about it. Or go to intensemuscle.com and do a lot of reading.

 

[autoimmune]

What does the 2 way mean.

to answer your question...

Userctraining/Dc training - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

and holy shit, DC has its own wiki page...

 

[Cerberus777]

The science of training seems lost these days. But with guys like Dante that put a lot of sience and research into his method. And John Medows that has taken progression to a whole new level with his style... It's not lost now. It just seems like more of a cult

 

[SABAGOY]

I know, so many people think there is only way or form of progression...a stronger muscle can be a bigger muscle, but a better muscle can be a bigger muscle pending nutrition, individual response, recovery, blah blah blah... I like plans, progression platforms, intensity progressions, etc.

I did 12 week program with John, freaking loved it! But, also love Yates style of training to a certain extent...the idea is progress the muscle, follow a plan, then assess, then move onto the next phase....gotta love to train because that is what makes this fun! Hell I have trained hammys and chest most days of the week...obviously, touch up stuff on top of all the major stuff...sound crazy, only crazy if you do not try it

Lenny,

Have you lowered the volume of your other body parts the days your doing additional ham and chest work?

Also, do you still have an all out chest day and hamstring day with decent volume during the week?

Interested as we all have our weak areas

 

[flexdurden]

I guess I coulda just said, "Everybody wanna be a bodybuilder, but nobody wanna lift no heavy ass weight!!!"

So, here's a thought, to keep this thread running.

PREMISE: One wants to incorporate a holistic style of training, meaning that heavy (<8rep), moderate (say 8-12reps) and "light" (12-15 and upward) weights are incorporated, to bring about the respective adaptations afforded by stimuli and stress of those different kinds of loading...

[There was a program years ago called "Holistic Training" where for each muscle group, a set in each range was done in each workout.]

For those that have taken this "holistic" have you compared:

1.) Different rep ranges on different days, e.g., Heavy days and Light days

vs.

2.) Different rep ranges on the SAME days

vs.

3.) Periodizing rep range approaches, e.g., in a typical "hypertrophy / strength / power" (Matveyev) type of progression?...

If so, what has been more effective?...

SECONDARY QUESTION: Just as there is known to be interference with hypertrophy from endurance exercise, would you have concern that employing different rep ranges could dampen the overall growth response?... Or would it perhaps enhance it?... (I have thoughts here, but would like to hear from others... )

-S

Scott, I am pretty curious about this, especially after the changes in the rep schemes you've incorporated into my program which have been making me sore as hell again.

This is just what I've observed and has really no scientific merit... But it seem like reaching failure with a variety of rep ranges within one training session hits more total muscle fibers (I guess you can say the burn is deeper). And all of those different types of muscle fibers are hit in one session whereas is you have heavy/light days you are only fatiguing certain muscle fibers each day and the others are not doing as much work.

All I know is, damn this change in rep scheme, it is so brutal on my legs...

 

[homonunculus]

Scott, I am pretty curious about this, especially after the changes in the rep schemes you've incorporated into my program which have been making me sore as hell again.

This is just what I've observed and has really no scientific merit... But it seem like reaching failure with a variety of rep ranges within one training session hits more total muscle fibers (I guess you can say the burn is deeper). And all of those different types of muscle fibers are hit in one session whereas is you have heavy/light days you are only fatiguing certain muscle fibers each day and the others are not doing as much work.

All I know is, damn this change in rep scheme, it is so brutal on my legs...

Well, as far hitting more total fibers, that will be a matter of load and how far the set progresses in terms of reaching muscular failure (and to what extent a person can push that hard).

High load - more motor units
As reps progress and fatigue ensues - More motor units called into the place

However, recruitment patterns (activation frequency, rotation among motor units) vary with load and fatigue and a novel stimulus requires a novel activation strategy. There is some suggestion that there is a component to the protective effect of repeated bouts that's neurological, meaning learning the pattern needed to do an exercises. Watch someone who's a newbie with shaky arms doing a BB bench press vs. someone like Dorian with a picture perfect smooth groove that makes it even look like the BB is in a smith machine or something and you'll see this.

So, when you switch rep ranges, or switch exercises, or switch from doing low reps first and then high reps when youv'e been doing the lighter sets first, you've got to create a new activation strategy and initially it's not all that perfect (like that of a beginner) and you get sore.

----------

The question though I'm thinking of is a matter of how, for instance we know that heavy training stimulates growth (just call it progressive overload), but also that lighter weight training also turns on muscle hypertrophic processes and will increase growth over the long haul, too.

Burd, N. A., D. W. West, et al. (2010). "Low-load high volume resistance exercise stimulates muscle protein synthesis more than high-load low volume resistance exercise in young men." PloS one 5(8): e12033.

Mitchell, C. J., T. A. Churchward-Venne, et al. (2012). "Resistance exercise load does not determine training-mediated hypertrophic gains in young men." Journal of applied physiology 113(1): 71-77.


I'm wondering if you can overload heavier and lighter stimuli on the same day and get a double whammy, or whether it would be more potent to train with diff. rep ranges on different days.

By analogy, consider taking an NSAID to keep inflammation under control. If you have motrin and naprosyn, two different NSAIDs you want to optimize dose (ala getting the greatest hypertrophic adapation), is it best to take smaller doses to get a synergistic effect or take on for a couple days and then switch to the other (to avoid tolerance)?...

-Scott

 

[comedycentral]

Cool thread.
I actually think this is why big beyond belief worked well for me as a natty because of the 3 rep ranges.
I also think that on the 4 day routine when the last two days are full body I made great progress because the exercises you pick and the actual routine is just brutal

These type of workouts I really enjoy because weirdly I know how hard they are going to be. That feeling of being sat at home almost shit scared because you know in a couple of hours you are going to be in pain.

 

[flexdurden]

Well, as far hitting more total fibers, that will be a matter of load and how far the set progresses in terms of reaching muscular failure (and to what extent a person can push that hard).

High load - more motor units
As reps progress and fatigue ensues - More motor units called into the place

However, recruitment patterns (activation frequency, rotation among motor units) vary with load and fatigue and a novel stimulus requires a novel activation strategy. There is some suggestion that there is a component to the protective effect of repeated bouts that's neurological, meaning learning the pattern needed to do an exercises. Watch someone who's a newbie with shaky arms doing a BB bench press vs. someone like Dorian with a picture perfect smooth groove that makes it even look like the BB is in a smith machine or something and you'll see this.

So, when you switch rep ranges, or switch exercises, or switch from doing low reps first and then high reps when youv'e been doing the lighter sets first, you've got to create a new activation strategy and initially it's not all that perfect (like that of a beginner) and you get sore.

OK, yes, this makes sense as to why I am getting sore again. So is this to say that by switching rep ranges, exercises, or the order of heavy to light with your sets, you are changing which motor units are actived first and chaning the pattern in which they activated?

The question though I'm thinking of is a matter of how, for instance we know that heavy training stimulates growth (just call it progressive overload), but also that lighter weight training also turns on muscle hypertrophic processes and will increase growth over the long haul, too.

Burd, N. A., D. W. West, et al. (2010). "Low-load high volume resistance exercise stimulates muscle protein synthesis more than high-load low volume resistance exercise in young men." PloS one 5(8): e12033.

Mitchell, C. J., T. A. Churchward-Venne, et al. (2012). "Resistance exercise load does not determine training-mediated hypertrophic gains in young men." Journal of applied physiology 113(1): 71-77.


I'm wondering if you can overload heavier and lighter stimuli on the same day and get a double whammy, or whether it would be more potent to train with diff. rep ranges on different days.

By analogy, consider taking an NSAID to keep inflammation under control. If you have motrin and naprosyn, two different NSAIDs you want to optimize dose (ala getting the greatest hypertrophic adapation), is it best to take smaller doses to get a synergistic effect or take on for a couple days and then switch to the other (to avoid tolerance)?...

-Scott

Well from the studies you posted, the first one shows that a heavy weight / low rep scheme would generate a greater hypertrophic response but the second one contractdicts this.

Can something be said about the subject used in each of the studies? I see that in the first one, the participants had no formal weight lifting experience whereas in the second one the participants stated they participated in resistance exercise or cycling for 3 or more days per week during the 6 months prior to the study.

You are the expert on this and have the experience and education with these kinds of experiements, so what do you suspect is the reason for each of the studies demonstating different results? I find it pretty interesiting that two studies, doing vitually the same thing, came to two distinct conclusions.

 

[drazz238]

I have used DC, 5x5, 10x10, High Volume, Hardgainer, and pretty much every other type of training style there is. I have gotten the best results ever meaning leaning out and putting on good size using a Holistic style and working the heavy, medium, and light rep ranges on the same day. I also used a low volume approach during this time. I also used a carb cycling diet with high, med, and low days during this time. If everyone used the same diet and exercise style I wonder what program would be most effective?

 

[Sylva]

I guess I coulda just said, "Everybody wanna be a bodybuilder, but nobody wanna lift no heavy ass weight!!!"

So, here's a thought, to keep this thread running.

PREMISE: One wants to incorporate a holistic style of training, meaning that heavy (<8rep), moderate (say 8-12reps) and "light" (12-15 and upward) weights are incorporated, to bring about the respective adaptations afforded by stimuli and stress of those different kinds of loading...

[There was a program years ago called "Holistic Training" where for each muscle group, a set in each range was done in each workout.]

For those that have taken this "holistic" have you compared:

1.) Different rep ranges on different days, e.g., Heavy days and Light days

vs.

2.) Different rep ranges on the SAME days

vs.

3.) Periodizing rep range approaches, e.g., in a typical "hypertrophy / strength / power" (Matveyev) type of progression?...

If so, what has been more effective?...


-S

I've had the best luck combining 2 & 3 on the same day.

I will start of with a periodized movement, like the 5/3/1 program for squats then move on to some more traditional BBer sets/rep schemes in a variety of ranges afterwards. That is what has worked best for me.

 

[Pathfinding77]

I guess I coulda just said, "Everybody wanna be a bodybuilder, but nobody wanna lift no heavy ass weight!!!"

So, here's a thought, to keep this thread running.

PREMISE: One wants to incorporate a holistic style of training, meaning that heavy (<8rep), moderate (say 8-12reps) and "light" (12-15 and upward) weights are incorporated, to bring about the respective adaptations afforded by stimuli and stress of those different kinds of loading...

[There was a program years ago called "Holistic Training" where for each muscle group, a set in each range was done in each workout.]

For those that have taken this "holistic" have you compared:

1.) Different rep ranges on different days, e.g., Heavy days and Light days

vs.

2.) Different rep ranges on the SAME days

vs.

3.) Periodizing rep range approaches, e.g., in a typical "hypertrophy / strength / power" (Matveyev) type of progression?...

If so, what has been more effective?...

SECONDARY QUESTION: Just as there is known to be interference with hypertrophy from endurance exercise, would you have concern that employing different rep ranges could dampen the overall growth response?... Or would it perhaps enhance it?... (I have thoughts here, but would like to hear from others... )

-S

Excellent...Phil personally taught me a basic system just like this... use the sets in a selected exercise in a reverse pyramid, where you hit heavy, medium and light numbers, thereby working all involved fibers. I believe the growth response would be enhanced

 

[homonunculus]

Cool thread.
I actually think this is why big beyond belief worked well for me as a natty because of the 3 rep ranges.
I also think that on the 4 day routine when the last two days are full body I made great progress because the exercises you pick and the actual routine is just brutal

These type of workouts I really enjoy because weirdly I know how hard they are going to be. That feeling of being sat at home almost shit scared because you know in a couple of hours you are going to be in pain.

I've had the best luck combining 2 & 3 on the same day.

I will start of with a periodized movement, like the 5/3/1 program for squats then move on to some more traditional BBer sets/rep schemes in a variety of ranges afterwards. That is what has worked best for me.

Excellent...Phil personally taught me a basic system just like this... use the sets in a selected exercise in a reverse pyramid, where you hit heavy, medium and light numbers, thereby working all involved fibers. I believe the growth response would be enhanced

THanks for the feedback, guys. Very much.

OK, yes, this makes sense as to why I am getting sore again. So is this to say that by switching rep ranges, exercises, or the order of heavy to light with your sets, you are changing which motor units are actived first and chaning the pattern in which they activated?

No, those wouldn't be reasons why Henneman's size principle would be violated, or the order of activation would change, at least dramatically, but the actual coordination of the firing rates, rotation (on / off pattern of motor units to delay fatigue), etc. will be different.

You can see this in EMG and MRI, as well as glycogen depletion patterns. It's kind of like a giant chorus (all the motor units in a given muscle) and band, and you've still got sopranos, tenors, bari's, and folks on various instruments. The song will change a bit from exercise to exercise, according fatigue, etc., but the same folks will still sing in their same ranges and/or use the same instruments.

Well from the studies you posted, the first one shows that a heavy weight / low rep scheme would generate a greater hypertrophic response but the second one contractdicts this.

Can something be said about the subject used in each of the studies? I see that in the first one, the participants had no formal weight lifting experience whereas in the second one the participants stated they participated in resistance exercise or cycling for 3 or more days per week during the 6 months prior to the study.

You are the expert on this and have the experience and education with these kinds of experiements, so what do you suspect is the reason for each of the studies demonstating different results? I find it pretty interesiting that two studies, doing vitually the same thing, came to two distinct conclusions.

My point was simply that low load training can stimulate and generate hypertophy. If you'd like to get into the details of those studies, that's an entirely different thread. (Did you read the studies or just the abstracts?... )

-S

 

[flexdurden]

No, those wouldn't be reasons why Henneman's size principle would be violated, or the order of activation would change, at least dramatically, but the actual coordination of the firing rates, rotation (on / off pattern of motor units to delay fatigue), etc. will be different.

You can see this in EMG and MRI, as well as glycogen depletion patterns. It's kind of like a giant chorus (all the motor units in a given muscle) and band, and you've still got sopranos, tenors, bari's, and folks on various instruments. The song will change a bit from exercise to exercise, according fatigue, etc., but the same folks will still sing in their same ranges and/or use the same instruments.

My point was simply that low load training can stimulate and generate hypertophy. If you'd like to get into the details of those studies, that's an entirely different thread. (Did you read the studies or just the abstracts?... )

-S

Well you caught me...I did skim and read "selectively." Now I see why both types of training (low load vs. high load) can both create a hypertrophic response. When using a lighter load, as the motor units that initially started the movement become fatigued, new motor units take over, thus creating a different activation pattern than when using a heavy load, but when reps are performed to failure will still yield a similar hypertrophic effect as using a heavy load. Am I on the right page with that?

 

[zachbean79]

I spend alot of time reading and following blogs of natural bodybuilders now primarily because there's so much great info being shared by these guys on dieting, training, mobility work....etc

These guys look damn good too. I strongly encourage you guys(especially the younger guys just starting out) to check out Matt Ogus's video blog on you tube. his channel is full of great info on training, nutrition, mobility work, injury prevention etc......

When you look at some of these guys you will question their claims of being natural.......but when you see the work ethic and dedication these guys have to putting in the time and work it take to look like they do.....I think you will believe they are natural. not to mention very few of them step on stage over 180lbs at heights of 5'9"......but they know how to dial it in and have good size too.

There was a time when PM was full of great training threads by guys like LATS, IABADMAN, MAGOO, VANDER V, HUTCH........etc etc.....There's still some good training threads started by guys like TRI-TERROR and several others but unfortunately I don't think those are the kind of threads most are interested in these days.

Let me take this moment to express my gratitude to LATS, TRI-TORROR, MOUNTAINDOG, SHELBY and PHIL H and others for continuing to share great training threads with us from time to time......I still log on just about daily cause I still like hearing your thoughts on training and nutrition.

 

[DOGGCRAPP]

to answer your question...

Userctraining/Dc training - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

and holy shit, DC has its own wiki page...

That's the first time Ive ever seen that...got no idea who put that stuff up.