Heart Problems and bodybuilding/Testosterone

[cshort01]

I wanted to share what's going on with my health because I know several of you have had heart issues and others worry about it.

I'm 43, have been training since age 15. Normally range between 240 to 250lbs at 5' 11" and always stay fairly lean. I've been using AAS for about 20 years, never huge amounts but too much testosterone for sure. For the last 10 years I've been on 750mg/week of Enanthate most of the time plus 3-5iu/gh/day.

I was experiencing shortness of breath in the gym for the last couple years and thought it was asthma/allergies so was on inhalers and allergy meds. This didn't help so in January I had an echocardiogram done. I found I have diastolic dysfunction grade 2 (left ventricle walls are thickened and not filling properly) and cardiomyopathy (my ejection fraction is 40%, it should be 55 to 70%).

I haven't had high blood pressure or high heart rate and the odds are that the high Test levels combined with training for so long caused these conditions.

My cardiologist put me on 2 medications that will lower heart rate and BP and said he believes these meds, based on studies and experience, will get my ejection fraction back into normal range.

I am now working with an HRT doc and have my Test at normal physiologic levels and have stopped GH.

Doc said I should stop lifting completely until my ejection fraction is into normal range so I'm just walking on treadmill and doing pushups. He said the intrathoracic pressure from heavy lifting would make the condition worse.

I'm also using several supplements now that have shown heart benefits including:
Curcumin
D-ribose
Hawthorne berry
Ubiquinol
Magnesium
L-Carnitine
PQQ
Fish oil

My prayer is that the high Test was the toxic element and that by getting it into normal range my heart will heal and that this is reversible. I won't ever try to be that big and won't ever use a higher dose of Test but would like to be able to lift again and stay in good shape.

Any of you guys have issues like this before and have advice? Did you see improvement?

Thanks,

Casey

 

[Whey2Heavy]

Thanks for sharing your experience brother, I wish you the best. I have not had any heart problems, being 25, but Nothuman and Maldorf are two members here that I know of that have suffered heart problems related to AAS usage and made threads to share their experiences,

http://www.professionalmuscle.com/f...heart-attack-age-38-follow-up-phils-post.html

http://www.professionalmuscle.com/f...rum/117825-i-just-had-open-heart-surgery.html

 

[NGL34]

Thanks for sharing your story. I'm glad you caught it in time and there giving you a good prognosis. For anyone who doesn't know, when you hit 20-15% EF, you join the donor list or get a ventricle assistance device or both.

Its too bad we can identify which factors played the bigger role? test = hypertrophy, gh = hyperplasia, abnormally large body = increase work load/demand on the HR, hypertrophy. If I had to take my guess the first would be your size and then test...purely guessing.

Anyhow I wish you the best in your treatment and recovery.

 

[TT]

I hope your condition will reverse itself. Mine did, but it was not that severe. I had an enlarged heart but 1 year off gear fixed the issue. I didn't take any supplements though.

Good luck,

TT

 

[sluggy]

I'm like half your age and have similar issues, but worse.

Reversing the condition? That's super hopeful.

You should be on an ACE inhibitor, and a beta blocker. This may help increase your ejection fraction but getting it back to normal? lol

Your cardiologist really is a hopeful guy.

I think you should start managing your expectations and work on getting to the point where your shortness of breath and symtoms are not as noticable.
Second you should try to do whatever you can to not make you heart get worse.

Stopping lifting is a very bad idea and is not going to magically make your EF go back to normal. You need to see a cardiologist that has worked with atletes and not just a run of the mill grandma and grandpa cardiologist.

 

[cshort01]

Thanks for the support guys.

I have read nothuman and Maldorf's threads and those are helpful.

Sluggy I'm on Carvedilol (Beta Blocker) and Lisinopril (ACE inhibitor) and the cardiologist believes these will raise the ejection fraction. I'm hoping this along with only physiologic levels of Test and the supplementation will improve the condition. I'm also praying for healing and wisdom to find anything that will help.

Good advice on finding a cardiologist that deals with athletes. My doc said the same may be beneficial. We are looking into cardiologists at Cooper Clinic in Dallas that work with a lot of athletes. I'd love to lift if I can without making it worse.

 

[sluggy]

Thanks for the support guys.

I have read nothuman and Maldorf's threads and those are helpful.

Sluggy I'm on Carvedilol (Beta Blocker) and Lisinopril (ACE inhibitor) and the cardiologist believes these will raise the ejection fraction. I'm hoping this along with only physiologic levels of Test and the supplementation will improve the condition. I'm also praying for healing and wisdom to find anything that will help.

Good advice on finding a cardiologist that deals with athletes. My doc said the same may be beneficial. We are looking into cardiologists at Cooper Clinic in Dallas that work with a lot of athletes. I'd love to lift if I can without making it worse.

It *may* raise the EF, but not nearly enought to put you back to normal.
Stick to TRT, or under 200mg total gear for a while.

I stopped squats and deads over 500lbs, but stopping lifting you might be worse off in the long run. It's not the lifting that fucked it up (unless you're a powerlifter, then yes), so stopping the lifting isn't going to fix it either.

There's a lot of bad information on the forum here. Like Maldorf's doctor got him to stop taking TRT. If you want to die from a heart attack, stop taking testosterone (TRT) and have your family call me when you're dead.

 

[nothuman]

Thanks for sharing your experience brother, I wish you the best. I have not had any heart problems, being 25, but Nothuman and Maldorf are two members here that I know of that have suffered heart problems related to AAS usage and made threads to share their experiences,

http://www.professionalmuscle.com/f...heart-attack-age-38-follow-up-phils-post.html

http://www.professionalmuscle.com/f...rum/117825-i-just-had-open-heart-surgery.html

You may have missed this follow up thread I made, which is quite relevant too.

http://www.professionalmuscle.com/f...orum/122239-heart-echocardiogram-results.html

I had surgery for an enlarged aortic root, but I still had some concerns in my echocardiogram and my EKG was abnormal. Read what I did in this thread that helped me 100% reverse everything. I am in perfect health now.

Granted, I never had a low EF or diastolic dysfunction, but I'm willing to bet those things would have improved too if they were an issue. I lived literally the perfect lifestyle and spent whatever I needed to on supplements and food.

 

[Pekkerwood]

Sluggy:

It is possible to make real improvements. (You can google me threads about this as well). Please note that ejection fraction deficit from a myocardial infarction is usually not recoverable. However, yours seems more like mine rather than Maldorfs, i.e. "heart failure" or in your case close to it.

Please watch Sodium and Alcohol as well as each can be a contributor. I take 600mg Ubiquinol daily and it is as important to me as my prescription meds.

If you have had any apnea type issues, now is the time to deal with them as well.

Good Luck to you.

PWood

 

[warlock]

Sluggy:

It is possible to make real improvements. (You can google me threads about this as well). Please note that ejection fraction deficit from a myocardial infarction is usually not recoverable. However, yours seems more like mine rather than Maldorfs, i.e. "heart failure" or in your case close to it.

Please watch Sodium and Alcohol as well as each can be a contributor. I take 600mg Ubiquinol daily and it is as important to me as my prescription meds.

If you have had any apnea type issues, now is the time to deal with them as well.

Good Luck to you.

PWood

600mg ubiquinol a day? I was told that 400mg was the most you should take? Did the cardiologist tell you to take 600mg? Do you split the dosages?

Thank you

 

[warlock]

I wanted to share what's going on with my health because I know several of you have had heart issues and others worry about it.

I'm 43, have been training since age 15. Normally range between 240 to 250lbs at 5' 11" and always stay fairly lean. I've been using AAS for about 20 years, never huge amounts but too much testosterone for sure. For the last 10 years I've been on 750mg/week of Enanthate most of the time plus 3-5iu/gh/day.

I was experiencing shortness of breath in the gym for the last couple years and thought it was asthma/allergies so was on inhalers and allergy meds. This didn't help so in January I had an echocardiogram done. I found I have diastolic dysfunction grade 2 (left ventricle walls are thickened and not filling properly) and cardiomyopathy (my ejection fraction is 40%, it should be 55 to 70%).

I haven't had high blood pressure or high heart rate and the odds are that the high Test levels combined with training for so long caused these conditions.

My cardiologist put me on 2 medications that will lower heart rate and BP and said he believes these meds, based on studies and experience, will get my ejection fraction back into normal range.

I am now working with an HRT doc and have my Test at normal physiologic levels and have stopped GH.

Doc said I should stop lifting completely until my ejection fraction is into normal range so I'm just walking on treadmill and doing pushups. He said the intrathoracic pressure from heavy lifting would make the condition worse.

I'm also using several supplements now that have shown heart benefits including:
Curcumin
D-ribose
Hawthorne berry
Ubiquinol
Magnesium
L-Carnitine
PQQ
Fish oil

My prayer is that the high Test was the toxic element and that by getting it into normal range my heart will heal and that this is reversible. I won't ever try to be that big and won't ever use a higher dose of Test but would like to be able to lift again and stay in good shape.

Any of you guys have issues like this before and have advice? Did you see improvement?

Thanks,

Casey

First of all, I hope you get better soon. You seem to be taking all the right steps so I am sure you will.

As to all the supplements you are taking, did the cardiologist suggest them for you? Do you mind sharing dosages?

Thank you and good luck

 

[para]

Are you taking injectable or oral Curcumin? If your not taking injectable, you may want to switch. Good luck bro.

 

[john161]

I like Coreg(Rx) and mixed 3000mg carnitines, which have been shown to increase heart function and restore damage. The other meds will actually kill your normal Q10, leaving you with congestive heart failure as the final outcome, so you better have it in the mix. 300 should be good enough. Maybe the addition of Hawthorn. I'll leave you to Pub med to review the facts.
Q10 was figured out by The Folker's Institute as the key for heart function way back in 1954.
Therapy with coenzyme Q10 of patients in heart failure who are elig... - PubMed - NCBI etc

Lots of info on L-carnitine for bad hearts as well . .. .

 

[DOGGCRAPP]

I wanted to share what's going on with my health because I know several of you have had heart issues and others worry about it.

I'm 43, have been training since age 15. Normally range between 240 to 250lbs at 5' 11" and always stay fairly lean. I've been using AAS for about 20 years, never huge amounts but too much testosterone for sure. For the last 10 years I've been on 750mg/week of Enanthate most of the time plus 3-5iu/gh/day.

I was experiencing shortness of breath in the gym for the last couple years and thought it was asthma/allergies so was on inhalers and allergy meds. This didn't help so in January I had an echocardiogram done. I found I have diastolic dysfunction grade 2 (left ventricle walls are thickened and not filling properly) and cardiomyopathy (my ejection fraction is 40%, it should be 55 to 70%).

I haven't had high blood pressure or high heart rate and the odds are that the high Test levels combined with training for so long caused these conditions.

My cardiologist put me on 2 medications that will lower heart rate and BP and said he believes these meds, based on studies and experience, will get my ejection fraction back into normal range.

I am now working with an HRT doc and have my Test at normal physiologic levels and have stopped GH.

Doc said I should stop lifting completely until my ejection fraction is into normal range so I'm just walking on treadmill and doing pushups. He said the intrathoracic pressure from heavy lifting would make the condition worse.

I'm also using several supplements now that have shown heart benefits including:
Curcumin
D-ribose
Hawthorne berry
Ubiquinol
Magnesium
L-Carnitine
PQQ
Fish oil

My prayer is that the high Test was the toxic element and that by getting it into normal range my heart will heal and that this is reversible. I won't ever try to be that big and won't ever use a higher dose of Test but would like to be able to lift again and stay in good shape.

Any of you guys have issues like this before and have advice? Did you see improvement?

Thanks,

Casey

The problem is you did 10 straight years on 750mg of testosterone with 3-5ius of gh a day. The literature is out there.

https://thinksteroids.com/articles/anabolic-steroids-growth-hormone-hypertrophy-heart/

 

[0893]

The problem is you did 10 straight years on 750mg of testosterone with 3-5ius of gh a day. The literature is out there.

https://thinksteroids.com/articles/anabolic-steroids-growth-hormone-hypertrophy-heart/

Great article thanks for posting

"The debate on the effect of anabolic substances on the structure of the heart reached another phase, since Finnish scientists studied twenty local bodybuilders who had just finished their cycles. Steroids don’t damage the heart, the researchers found. But the combination of steroids and growth hormone does."

Very intresting^ 1st paragraph

 

[cshort01]

Thanks everyone for the encouragement and advice.

Nothuman and peckerwood, reading your stories gave me more hope that I'll see improvement also. I'm doing everything I can to improve it and if it does heal I should be much healthier now that I'm dropping weight and only using TRT doses.

Warlock, my cardiologist doesn't advise any supplements but that isn't unusual. Many docs only feel prescribing meds is the credible route even though there is a lot of research showing the benefit of some supplements. Here's what I'm taking with dosages. I found these through researching supplements and heart failure. Some cardiologists have written articles/books showing excellent results with their patients.
I take most of these in divided doses throughout the day.
Ubiquinol - 600mg daily
L-Carnitine 3000mg/day
Magnesium 600mg/day
D-ribose 15 gram/day
Curcumin 3000gm/day...I use oral Longvida which has been shown to be more bioavailable than other curcumin.
Fish Oil -6000mg/day
Hawthorn extract- 1200mg/day
Life Extension K complex with K2- 2/day.. I think it has 1000mg K2 per capsule.
PQQ- 20mg/day
Serracor-NK 6/day - a systemic enzyme

Thanks John for the info, glad to see Carnitine and CoQ10 are on my list also.

 

[john161]

YOU CANNOT take L-carnitine by itself! It makes a bad NO2 in the guts, which leads to scarring of blood vessels. You must take it with acetyl-carnitine too!!
And a good probiotic to be safe, to reduce the NO2,

 

[warlock]

Thanks everyone for the encouragement and advice.

Nothuman and peckerwood, reading your stories gave me more hope that I'll see improvement also. I'm doing everything I can to improve it and if it does heal I should be much healthier now that I'm dropping weight and only using TRT doses.

Warlock, my cardiologist doesn't advise any supplements but that isn't unusual. Many docs only feel prescribing meds is the credible route even though there is a lot of research showing the benefit of some supplements. Here's what I'm taking with dosages. I found these through researching supplements and heart failure. Some cardiologists have written articles/books showing excellent results with their patients.
I take most of these in divided doses throughout the day.
Ubiquinol - 600mg daily
L-Carnitine 3000mg/day
Magnesium 600mg/day
D-ribose 15 gram/day
Curcumin 3000gm/day...I use oral Longvida which has been shown to be more bioavailable than other curcumin.
Fish Oil -6000mg/day
Hawthorn extract- 1200mg/day
Life Extension K complex with K2- 2/day.. I think it has 1000mg K2 per capsule.
PQQ- 20mg/day
Serracor-NK 6/day - a systemic enzyme

Thanks John for the info, glad to see Carnitine and CoQ10 are on my list also.

Thank you for taking the time to type all this information. Many of us are health conscious so this information is always useful.

What type of carnitine are you taking? Any specific brand? I believe Dr. Sinatra, well known cardiologist likes the fumarate version so wondering what you use. Syntherek also had an injectable version which normally absorbs much better.

What type of magnesium do you use? There was a thread posted here with lots of info. I believe I read that the taurate form is the best for the heart. Food for thought.

I did not know about the PQQ but will look into this as well as the Serracor-NK. I quickly glanced through and saw this is extremely expensive??? What brand do you use.

You might want to look into injectable curcumin, perhaps complement it with the oral curcumin (Dante likes the life extension one which is the one most of us use).

On another note, I remember reading on the social media a long time ago that IFBB pro Mark Erpelding used to have an enlarged heart and I think the ejection was low too. He lost weight, trained light, did a number of things and got everything under control. You might want to find him on the social media and see what he suggests.

I hope this helps.

 

[chinaboy]

OP- good luck buddy. Nothing wrong with laying off the weights for a while. Cardio is medicine for the cardiovascular system but increase slowly. Take up something like yoga or stretching and let your joints heal while your heart does.

 

[nothuman]

The problem is you did 10 straight years on 750mg of testosterone with 3-5ius of gh a day. The literature is out there.

https://thinksteroids.com/articles/anabolic-steroids-growth-hormone-hypertrophy-heart/

I have a question for you: do you think that the synergy between testosterone + hgh causes more heart enlargement than other AAS (tren, deca, orals, etc) + hgh?