Help coming 'off'

[maldorf]

Most of the guys in this thread are in denial, and like Old Fella said there is not use of arguing with them. You can think anything you want ,but those of us with a lot of experience know the truth. Go ahead and take your HCG, nolva, clomid whatever and see where that gets you after years and years of use. Once you try to get off for good, and I mean for life, you will find out that your natural production is gone. Youll end up on HRT just like me and the many other men that choose to do what we do.

 

[5004paloma]

Thanks Mal......its' funny how so many guys come on here and ask what the truth is...........so the truth is told, they do not like what they read and then live in denial. That is why I do not continue to argue the point. It is what it is guys..............The price we pay for what we do. I am not saying that times have not changed and some of this stuff will "ease the pain", fact of the matter is there is going to be the pain of a fucked up endocrine system for the rest of your life. If you are younger then you will weather the storm, if you are older you will be faced with lifetime HRT, plain hard truth. No amount of "PCT" will change this.

I can't believe what I'm reading. At first I thought, maybe it's late and I misread or didn't catch the humor. Are these guys actually suggesting NO PCT????? Wow. PCT preparation and research has been more important and time-consuming than cycle research IMO. I've been researching PCT for almost a year now, reading others experiences before ever using my first AAS.

In fact, this is why I opted to run a peptide cycle first - even though I am beginning to believe even a relatively simple IGF-1 cycle should be followed by a GHRP/GHRH cycle to get GH production back to normal.

The body is designed to live in a balanced state - attained by very elaborate and complex feedback and feedforward signalling loops. Think ying/yang - for every action there is an equal and opposite reaction of some sort somewhere.

While we're on the topic, let me know what you think about my planned first AAS cycle, if you have experience with something similar.

19 Week Total Cycle
1. TEST E 250mg/2x Week during week 1-12
2. Aromasin (Exemestane) 12.5mg EOD during week 1-14
3. SERM (Toremifene citrate) - 1.5ml week 14, 15; 1.0ml week 16, 17; .5ml week 18
4. Clenbuterol 20mcg to 80mcg (increasing as appropriate) - weeks 13 thru 19 with 5 day break every 15 days (using benedryl)
5. IGF-1 DES 1,3 @ 40mcg / day - weeks 12 thru 19
6. PEG MGF @ 500mcg 3x/week - weeks 12 thru 19

It's a straight forward 1st AAS cycle - from what I have researched. PLEASE comment on it and make constructive suggestions.

I'll start a new thread with this plan.

 

[pesty4077]

I am going to side with Maldorf and Old Fella. You can take all the PCT you want and it won't help. You been on too long. You better get use to losing alot of size too. That is cold hard facts.

 

[maldorf]

I am going to side with Maldorf and Old Fella. You can take all the PCT you want and it won't help. You been on too long. You better get use to losing alot of size too. That is cold hard facts.

they wont believe us. They have to experiment and do their own thing and live it the hard way. Too bad eh.

 

[J.Blaze]

Oldfella,Mal and Pesty, do you think pct is a bad thing. Does it hurt or help? Do you guys suggest tapering? Ive done cycles with and without pct. The only time I had success not using pct was tapering. I can honestly say that when I tapered I kept more of my gains, but I did use hcg during cycle a few times. I can also say that I felt more sides from clomid. I wont use that shit ever again.

 

[ballennonstop]

Low dose var will shut you down. As low as 10mg over the course of a few weeks can shut a normal person's HPTA down. Also, because he has been shut down for two years doesn't mean he needs a higher dose or multiple SERMs. That's faulty understanding of the endocrine system and how these drugs affect it. It's irrelevant if you've been shut down for two months or twenty years, a regularly dosed PCT will serve it's purpose, and adding multiple compounds that act on the same function will do nothing more but add more stress to his body; tamoxifen alone is quite hepatoxic. Look into toremifene, it's a much better option.

Also, the dose of HCG is about 10X what it needs to be. Read in the articles section on proper HCG usage. 100-500IU E3D is plenty, when people use ridiculous doses of 4000-5000iu weekly it will actually cause recovery to take longer.

If your going to have the balls to tell me I'm wrong you better have some studies to back it up. I went out on a limb to help this guy out and you have the gall to tell me I have a faulty understanding of the endocrine system?! Wheres your program for the guy? I must have missed that. Also, I'm no Endo myself (although I have been schooled in A&P, Kines, etc) but I do have experience through myself and hundreds of others with these PCTs. I heavily abused AAS for long periods of time, heavy dosages, with no breaks up until last year. I performed a similar PCT that I described above (HCG 2000, 1500, 1000, 1000, 500, 500, 500, 250, 250, 250, 250 E3D to be exact). 6 months later my Test Serum levels were 448. 15 months later my Test Serum levels were 648. Also, my Bilirubin, AST & ALT were all in range throughout and after the Tamoxfen intake so there goes your hepatoxic-nolvadex theory. If you have proof where others had a different story please advise. Also, who told you 10mg of Oxandrolone shuts down the HPTA? Yet another false statement based on my experience, others experience, and research Ive done. Here's a tidbit I dragged up real quick on Wiki:

"It also does not significantly influence the body's normal testosterone production (HPTA axis) at low dosages (10syntherolmg). When dosages are high, the human body reacts by reducing the production of LH (luteinizing hormone), thinking endogenous testosterone production is too high; this in turn eliminates further stimulation of Leydig cells in the testicles, causing testicular atrophy (shrinking). Oxandrolone used in a dose of 80syntherolmg/day suppressed endogenous testosterone by 67% after 12 weeks of therapy[3].

I used to get paid to tailor HRT programs with a board certified Endocrinologist and this is what he would prescribe a patient (with a heavy background of aas) for post therapy. I'm not familiar with Toremifine seeing it's not legally prescribed in the US so I can't speak on that.

 

[Newman]

If your going to have the balls to tell me I'm wrong you better have some studies to back it up. I went out on a limb to help this guy out and you have the gall to tell me I have a faulty understanding of the endocrine system?! Wheres your program for the guy? I must have missed that. Also, I'm no Endo myself (although I have been schooled in A&P, Kines, etc) but I do have experience through myself and hundreds of others with these PCTs. I heavily abused AAS for long periods of time, heavy dosages, with no breaks up until last year. I performed a similar PCT that I described above (HCG 2000, 1500, 1000, 1000, 500, 500, 500, 250, 250, 250, 250 E3D to be exact). 6 months later my Test Serum levels were 448. 15 months later my Test Serum levels were 648. Also, my Bilirubin, AST & ALT were all in range throughout and after the Tamoxfen intake so there goes your hepatoxic-nolvadex theory. If you have proof where others had a different story please advise. Also, who told you 10mg of Oxandrolone shuts down the HPTA? Yet another false statement based on my experience, others experience, and research Ive done. Here's a tidbit I dragged up real quick on Wiki:

"It also does not significantly influence the body's normal testosterone production (HPTA axis) at low dosages (10syntherolmg). When dosages are high, the human body reacts by reducing the production of LH (luteinizing hormone), thinking endogenous testosterone production is too high; this in turn eliminates further stimulation of Leydig cells in the testicles, causing testicular atrophy (shrinking). Oxandrolone used in a dose of 80syntherolmg/day suppressed endogenous testosterone by 67% after 12 weeks of therapy[3].

I used to get paid to tailor HRT programs with a board certified Endocrinologist and this is what he would prescribe a patient (with a heavy background of aas) for post therapy. I'm not familiar with Toremifine seeing it's not legally prescribed in the US so I can't speak on that.

I admire your charity.