Hernon Old Training Method Revisited: 2022

[Dens228]

Ahh ok. I was just quoting what he said in a more recent youtube post about failure. Your version is much more reasonable.

He put out a lot of info that contradicted itself over the years. And some really off the wall stuff that didn't make sense. On this forum he had a post where he said he'd NEVER work triceps on a different day than chest, yet many of us were given routines that did just that. He also gave me some routines that would actually be a physical impossibility no matter who you are. I think the first couple of routines he gave me were outstanding and worked well. The ones he gave me to follow later, well..........I just stuck to the original. And still use it to this day. I actually just switched back to it starting this week after DC 3-way for quite awhile. But I do now utilize a push/legs/pull as the original grouping gets to my elbows and shoulders now that I'm an old man........

 

[Type-IIx]

It was never free but you can indeed find the PDF through a simple Google search.

I also found it a great training program 👍

I agree it looks pretty decent. Honestly, looking at the saner stuff, it's solid in my view. I obviously think the 6 days, double sessions (12 sessions weekly) with alternation of back/chest with chest/back etc. is not good (just full body workouts with very high frequency... less than optimal for hypertrophy). But the 4 sessions weekly isn't the worst thing I've seen. Shit, honestly this definitely one of the better training (hypertrophy) books I've seen.

 

[Hammer4]

I liked a lot of the concepts behind BBB. One thing I never liked was timing my rest periods. I see an advantage to doing so, and I see it can be used as another form of progressive overload (gradually shortening rest periods). But staring at the clock in between sets was always distasteful to me. I was more worried about the clock than I was about executing the exercise.

Good point Xpoc. Sometimes that last 20 seconds feels like a count down to shuttle launch which ruins the fun and, more inportantly, the execution.
I still have to fight the "3,2,1, lift" mentality but I feel like it helps me gauge weights and rep ranges with WAY more precision having this variable controlled. I try to give myself 15 seconds +/- so I can concentrate on the lift and not the clock 🤷‍♂️

 

[KTT]

He put out a lot of info that contradicted itself over the years. And some really off the wall stuff that didn't make sense. On this forum he had a post where he said he'd NEVER work triceps on a different day than chest, yet many of us were given routines that did just that. He also gave me some routines that would actually be a physical impossibility no matter who you are. I think the first couple of routines he gave me were outstanding and worked well. The ones he gave me to follow later, well..........I just stuck to the original. And still use it to this day. I actually just switched back to it starting this week after DC 3-way for quite awhile. But I do now utilize a push/legs/pull as the original grouping gets to my elbows and shoulders now that I'm an old man........

Do you have an example for us for the later routines? Were these the full body programs every day?

 

[Dens228]

Do you have an example for us for the later routines? Were these the full body programs every day?

The only one I can recall enough to give as an example was a two way split routine. One set per body part, do a set to failure at 10-12 reps, rack but stay in position, take one breath and unrack and do another rep, rack but stay in position, unrack and do another rep. Alternate workouts with no days off until you needed one. I tried it for a short time, but I was lucky to get the one rep after the first failure point and was lucky if I could even unrack the weight for the third mini-set. Especially on bench and squats........to me it just seemed like the risk reward was not worth it. Going to failure on squats and then racking and unracking after one breath was a fucked up knee or hip waiting to happen. If you think about it just pausing at the top for a breath and doing two forced reps would make more sense. With good training partners you could make it work I suppose. Just wasn't my cup of tea.

 

[LK3]

i never higher phil but i did learn a bunch from him.
for a bunch of years i have been using a similar set structure. but i go higher reps 20-30, 15-20, 8-10. very little rest in between. that is all done with the same wieght until i can get all sets into the 20 rep range then ill add in a 4 th set if get to the point where i can hit 20 for 3 sets. always progressive.

 

[alfresco]

The only one I can recall enough to give as an example was a two way split routine. One set per body part, do a set to failure at 10-12 reps, rack but stay in position, take one breath and unrack and do another rep, rack but stay in position, unrack and do another rep. Alternate workouts with no days off until you needed one. I tried it for a short time, but I was lucky to get the one rep after the first failure point and was lucky if I could even unrack the weight for the third mini-set. Especially on bench and squats........to me it just seemed like the risk reward was not worth it. Going to failure on squats and then racking and unracking after one breath was a fucked up knee or hip waiting to happen. If you think about it just pausing at the top for a breath and doing two forced reps would make more sense. With good training partners you could make it work I suppose. Just wasn't my cup of tea.

Tenny had a good one for squats and if memory serves me; 10 sets, same weight, 20 seconds rest between sets.

I could walk for a few days but you get accustomed to it, not sore. It’s a hell of a leg workout.

Hope Tenny chimes in on this (MIA?), see if I got it right.

 

[maldorf]

Tenny had a good one for squats and if memory serves me; 10 sets, same weight, 20 seconds rest between sets.

I could walk for a few days but you get accustomed to it, not sore. It’s a hell of a leg workout.

Hope Tenny chimes in on this (MIA?), see if I got it right.

20 seconds is absolutely brutal. More like doing a big long rest pause set. I'd go into ventricular tachycardia for sure now. I did it once back in 08.

If you have a healthy heart, go for it!

 

[xpoc]

Here he is talking about rep cadence and going to failure (getting pinned at the bottom in squats for exampe)

 

[alfresco]

20 seconds is absolutely brutal. More like doing a big long rest pause set. I'd go into ventricular tachycardia for sure now. I did it once back in 08.

If you have a healthy heart, go for it!

To be clear, I do rack the weight between sets, then look at the clock, at ~15 seconds I get back under the bar and start squatting, which gives me 20 seconds between sets. Use a lighter than you might think to start then add weight when you do them again in your next workout if you can. When you can do 10 x 10 I add weight. That is how I understand they should be performed.

 

[maldorf]

To be clear, I do rack the weight between sets, then look at the clock, at ~15 seconds I get back under the bar and start squatting, which gives me 20 seconds between sets. Use a lighter than you might think to start then add weight when you do them again in your next workout if you can. When you can do 10 x 10 I add weight. That is how I understand they should be performed.

I performed mine a bit different in the past, but dont try it anymore. I would do the first set to failure, usually around 10 to 20 reps then rack. Wait 30 seconds and then go again until failure. Keep going until you hit 100 reps total. Sometimes I'd have to increase the rest interval in order to keep squatting.

 

[xpoc]

I will play devils advocate here...only because I hate timing my sets UNLESS it is a single rest pause set then I have to in order to ensure I am comparing apples to apples for purposes of progression. I am not saying it is not beneficial, I am just saying I find it distasteful as I expressed earlier (feel like I am more focused on the clock than the execution of the exercise).

It is a generally accepted belief that mechanical tension is the primary driver of hypertrophy. Other contributors include muscle damage and metabolic stress along with volume. So here is my question. If I am chasing these big factors for hypertrophy would it not be more beneficial to take more time between sets to allow for a greater load. For example: If I did the 10x10 protocol as described above with 15 seconds rest I might hypothetically use 150 lbs. for a total volume number of 15,000. If I did that same 10x10 and allowed 2 minutes rest between sets I might be able to use 200 lbs. for a total volume of 20,000. Under scenario 1 I used a max mechanical tension of 150 and a total volume load of 15,000. Under scenario 2 I used a max mechanical tension of 200 and a total volume load of 20,000. On face value, the only benefit to scenario 1 would be for cardiovascular training and obviously it is less time consuming. But for muscle building it was appear scenario 2 was far more beneficial as it impacted the hypertrophy factors much more intensely than scenario 1.

Like I said, I could be way wrong here. Heck if short rest periods are proven to be superior to longer rest periods I would do it in a heartbeat. But on face value, it seems less advantageous to use this approach if you are trying to build muscle.

 

[jeroendebleser]

I will play devils advocate here...only because I hate timing my sets UNLESS it is a single rest pause set then I have to in order to ensure I am comparing apples to apples for purposes of progression. I am not saying it is not beneficial, I am just saying I find it distasteful as I expressed earlier (feel like I am more focused on the clock than the execution of the exercise).

It is a generally accepted belief that mechanical tension is the primary driver of hypertrophy. Other contributors include muscle damage and metabolic stress along with volume. So here is my question. If I am chasing these big factors for hypertrophy would it not be more beneficial to take more time between sets to allow for a greater load. For example: If I did the 10x10 protocol as described above with 15 seconds rest I might hypothetically use 150 lbs. for a total volume number of 15,000. If I did that same 10x10 and allowed 2 minutes rest between sets I might be able to use 200 lbs. for a total volume of 20,000. Under scenario 1 I used a max mechanical tension of 150 and a total volume load of 15,000. Under scenario 2 I used a max mechanical tension of 200 and a total volume load of 20,000. On face value, the only benefit to scenario 1 would be for cardiovascular training and obviously it is less time consuming. But for muscle building it was appear scenario 2 was far more beneficial as it impacted the hypertrophy factors much more intensely than scenario 1.

Like I said, I could be way wrong here. Heck if short rest periods are proven to be superior to longer rest periods I would do it in a heartbeat. But on face value, it seems less advantageous to use this approach if you are trying to build muscle.

Well according to science up until now long rest periods (I believe it was even 3 to 5 mins between sets) are more beneficial yes so you're probably correct. But you probably already knew this 😉

The only problem I have with that is WTF do you do for 5 minutes in the meantime? What about other people complaining you're hugging machines while doing little on them? Dilemmas 🤣

But I personally also agree that long rest periods are far superior to the really short ones. My strength dropoff would be insane from set to set if I only rested for 1 minute between sets.

 

[juggy38]

Jon Andersens “deep water” program has 10x10 squats with 2 minute rests and it’s fucking brutal

The next week you try 100 reps in 9 sets, next week 100 reps in 8 sets

 

[xpoc]

Well according to science up until now long rest periods (I believe it was even 3 to 5 mins between sets) are more beneficial yes so you're probably correct. But you probably already knew this 😉

The only problem I have with that is WTF do you do for 5 minutes in the meantime? What about other people complaining you're hugging machines while doing little on them? Dilemmas 🤣

But I personally also agree that long rest periods are far superior to the really short ones. My strength dropoff would be insane from set to set if I only rested for 1 minute between sets.

Thats part of it for me too....so ego comes into play. I was doing that 8x8 Gironda workout and timing my rest periods to 20 seconds. I ended up using less weight on some exercises than some of the females in the gym. I am not huge, but in a commercial gym, I generally look like one of the more developed guys. So this was disheartening.

 

[LATS]

We need to make a difference about hitting failure.. if you hit failure due to mechanical tension etc.. great.. but when you start reducing rest periods to 20 seconds ( muscle rounds or cluster sets excluded) you are mainly accumulating fatigue products that hinder contraction.. so you can hit failure all you want but the load is inadequate..
Muscle rounds short rest period is different.. the short period let's you take a weight you would normally hit 15 reps with but allows you to hit 24 reps in a shortened period.. and still allows for adequate load..
Now we know load for hypertrophy is very lenient.. studies show that 60 percent 1rpm if taken to failure will lead to similar results as 90 percent if using protein synthesis as the barometer.. but heavier load does also contribute in other ways.. but in order to hit failure due to mechanical tension etc. You need adequate rest.. 3 to 5 minutes for single sets..

 

[alfresco]

We need to make a difference about hitting failure.. if you hit failure due to mechanical tension etc.. great.. but when you start reducing rest periods to 20 seconds ( muscle rounds or cluster sets excluded) you are mainly accumulating fatigue products that hinder contraction.. so you can hit failure all you want but the load is inadequate..
Muscle rounds short rest period is different.. the short period let's you take a weight you would normally hit 15 reps with but allows you to hit 24 reps in a shortened period.. and still allows for adequate load..
Now we know load for hypertrophy is very lenient.. studies show that 60 percent 1rpm if taken to failure will lead to similar results as 90 percent if using protein synthesis as the barometer.. but heavier load does also contribute in other ways.. but in order to hit failure due to mechanical tension etc. You need adequate rest.. 3 to 5 minutes for single sets..

Good conversation.

Like all that have chimed in on this subject (thank you) it seems to me that there are many ways to skin a cat. The bottom line is finding out what works best for you. Try them all, keep detailed accurate records, evaluate and go from there.

Personally I prefer, have gotten my best results with a very (relative term) fast paced workout. I hate waiting and will usually do an opposing muscle group between sets of curls for example, plus this ‘style’ has been shown to improve the recovery time of the muscle being worked. Interesting. Failing that, on straight sets, 20 - 30 seconds works best for as I am only interested in strength gains as a function of progression, not bragging rights 😉.

Skip the science and up the desire I always say.

 

[LATS]

Good conversation.

Like all that have chimed in on this subject (thank you) it seems to me that there are many ways to skin a cat. The bottom line is finding out what works best for you. Try them all, keep detailed accurate records, evaluate and go from there.

Personally I prefer, have gotten my best results with a very (relative term) fast paced workout. I hate waiting and will usually do an opposing muscle group between sets of curls for example, plus this ‘style’ has been shown to improve the recovery time of the muscle being worked. Interesting. Failing that, on straight sets, 20 - 30 seconds works best for as I am only interested in strength gains as a function of progression, not bragging rights 😉.

Skip the science and up the desire I always say.

Well I've always thought the best routine is one your willing to do consistently.. if you dread your routine it's already a failure

 

[alfresco]

Well I've always thought the best routine is one your willing to do consistently.. if you dread your routine it's already a failure

Like Bill Pearl said, and I am paraphrasing here; even the worst routine will give you results if you train hard and believe in it.

So much of bodybuilding for us mere mortals is mental, but diet stills reigns supreme, dare I say more important than the exercises. And I am willing to bet that most everybody here would look better if they lost 10 lbs . . . but that is a discussion for another day.

 

[maldorf]

I performed mine a bit different in the past, but dont try it anymore. I would do the first set to failure, usually around 10 to 20 reps then rack. Wait 30 seconds and then go again until failure. Keep going until you hit 100 reps total. Sometimes I'd have to increase the rest interval in order to keep squatting.

When I did that workout, it was after I had already hit 5 sets of conventional heavy squats.