hgh for maximum muscle gain?

[bnj]

What is the best way to take hgh for maximum muscle gain?

 

[chemicalwarrior]

What is the best way to take hgh for maximum muscle gain?

This is total bro-science on my part, and experience. My basic idea on it (and experience) is that to best lose fat, take it in small doses spaced throughout the day (1-2 iu per dose). But, for best muscle gains try a quite large dose post workout. For awhile I was using it at 10 iu post workout 3 x week. A better way to use for muscle gains would be to do 10 or more iu every day, but I simply can't afford it. 3 kits per month? Fuggetaboutit. Maybe when I'm rich some day.

An alternative would be to use the gh itself to stimulate a "super pulse" 10-15 min after your gh peptide injection.

45 min till workout: 100 mcg ipamorelin or a ghrp, + 100 mcg of mod grf or cjc w/out dac

30 min before workout: 2-5 iu gh (whatever you can afford here)

10 min pre-workout: 10 iu humalog (not suggesting this for newbies and those not educated about insulin) or 40-80 mcg of igf1-lr3. Begin sipping your workout shake of bcaas, dextrose and creatine etc. (no whey or solid proteins, we don't want blood pooling in the gut we want easy to digest to get a great pump!!)

Immediately post workout: 100-200 mcg of mgf (non peg- and well taken care of/prepared!) into the muscles worked- whichever you need the most new growth on. Have some more shake with bcaas, dextrose etc. as needed.

1/2 hr post workout: igf-1 rh, or des (1-3) igf-1 into the same muscles the mgf was injected- mgf stimulates new cells to form new muscles, des "differentiates" and tells them to become muscle vs. something else like smooth tissue- basically finishes the process. MGF itself actually inhibits the differentiation of satellite cells, but it does stimulate them/wakes em up!

Have a good, decently clean meal 1/2 hr after this last shot.

1 hr before bed: 9-10 mg of melatonin (the otc sleep aid) and your nightly protein meal or shake

just before bed: 100 mcg of ipa, 100 mcg of mod grf

10 min later: 1-2 iu of GH

The melatonin doubles the output of the gh peptides! Taking GH after the peptides causes the body to really increase gh output again in addition to recognizing the gh you just injected. It's a super, super pulse! If you don't grow on that, then you won't grow!!

Alternatively, if you are just using GH by itself (no peptides, no slin, no aas etc.) then just expect consistent and noticeable fat loss over time. Until you get into massive doses of GH, you won't see much in the way of growth from my experience.

Oh, and not all of what I'm advocating is bro-science. Their is a lot of thought and research that has gone into my ideas on this. But, at the very least, here's a link to the study about the melatonin and grf- also called ghrh in the study, but is the same basic thing. Trust me, this melatonin thing works! My hands got numb for the first time doing it this way and I had been on a variety of gh doses and so forth. I even stopped all other doses of gh peptides and gh and just generally do the 1 protocol before bed as described above.

Melatonin stimulates growth hormone secretion thro... [Clin Endocrinol (Oxf). 1993] - PubMed result

 

[ryduck1990]

10IU PWO

Can our bodies actually process 10IU at once? I am guessing some it will go to waste.

 

[123cctv]

Can our bodies actually process 10IU at once?

Oh it can process it, but is 10IU of GH comparable to our own natural secretion? Will this cause desensitization? Doesn't a mere 2-3IU saturate receptors?

The answers to this are fairly obvious. One could benefit much better by mimicking bodily secretion patterns, staying away from receptor saturation thereby avoiding desensitization. If 10IU per day was desired, dosing 3IU 3x times per day would solve all of these issues.

 

[chemicalwarrior]

If 10IU per day was desired, dosing 3IU 3x times per day would solve all of these issues.

You may be right about this. But, in practice I'm not so sure it'd come out to "mass" gains as much as very good fat loss. I'd just try it both ways for a few weeks and see what happens. That's the only way a person will ever truly know. What you are saying makes sense on paper, but sometimes it just doesn't work the same way when we go and try it. The super high single dose just affects thing differently than a lot of people would think.

About the desensitization issue- that's what the 3 x week was for. Honestly, when I did it I did 10 iu post workout and my "normal" gh amounts on the other days, something like 2 iu in the morning and another 2 in the afternoon etc.

I'm not advocating this btw. There are always several ways to skin a cat. I don't even use the high dose post workout route myself even when bulking. It's just too expensive for my tastes.

 

[mexbeast]

You may be right about this. But, in practice I'm not so sure it'd come out to "mass" gains as much as very good fat loss. I'd just try it both ways for a few weeks and see what happens. That's the only way a person will ever truly know. What you are saying makes sense on paper, but sometimes it just doesn't work the same way when we go and try it. The super high single dose just affects thing differently than a lot of people would think.

About the desensitization issue- that's what the 3 x week was for. Honestly, when I did it I did 10 iu post workout and my "normal" gh amounts on the other days, something like 2 iu in the morning and another 2 in the afternoon etc.

I'm not advocating this btw. There are always several ways to skin a cat. I don't even use the high dose post workout route myself even when bulking. It's just too expensive for my tastes.

i would have to agree with this.

 

[atomone]

i take 100 ghrp 6 100 cjc1295 first thing in the morning 30 min later 2 to 3 iu gh. on workout days i do 40mcgs igf pre and 10 iu humalog followed by 4 iu post on non work out days i used ghrp6 and cjc1295 1 or two more times in the afternoon or before bed]. if i wake up at night i the peps aswell. i just picked up mgf from ron and iwill be doing that post workout then the gh 20 min later. i love this combo lean gains all the way

 

[chemicalwarrior]

i take 100 ghrp 6 100 cjc1295 first thing in the morning 30 min later 2 to 3 iu gh. on workout days i do 40mcgs igf pre and 10 iu humalog followed by 4 iu post on non work out days i used ghrp6 and cjc1295 1 or two more times in the afternoon or before bed]. if i wake up at night i the peps aswell. i just picked up mgf from ron and iwill be doing that post workout then the gh 20 min later. i love this combo lean gains all the way

That sounds like a good protocol and sounds like it's working well! And, "lean" is the main word there. The gains come, but you stay lean. For those of us who have some difficulty keeping the fat away it's a godsend.

 

[123cctv]

You may be right about this. But, in practice I'm not so sure it'd come out to "mass" gains as much as very good fat loss.

You're right. But then I didn't say it would lead to "mass gains". However the method I did suggest will lead to greater gains, as compared to lower dosing, but without the undesired fat!

What you are saying makes sense on paper, but sometimes it just doesn't work the same way when we go and try it.

Could that be because what's been shown to occur on paper, may not be telling the entire story?

The super high single dose just affects thing differently than a lot of people would think.

You mentioned that mass gains can be achieved by a single high dose. While I do not disgree with this, as I do agree - where my problem is -- just exactly what types of gains does one receive? Just lean muscle or LM along with? May I suggest (again referring to "paper" or studies findings, my life has experienced this too) is that larger doses which immediately saturate and will maintain sat levels for (depending on size of dose) a good day or more!

Are we always watchful of insulin levels? I've quoted this from a Review once before,

"recombinant growth hormone will bind to growth hormone receptors and directly affect the following: antagonism of peripheral actions of insulin and increasing insulin secretion,"

Due to increased insulin secretion the gains one will probably experience may not be as desired as is LBM. Further, prolonged usage of HGH, or expedited via higher dosing eventually causes insulin resistance - this is a direct result of the continued or "increasing insulin secretion" from the synthetic GH.

So what else can contribute to "mass gains" other than the GH itself? I mean a larger dose of GH won't create additional GH receptors. Once receptors are saturated, that's it! You're done until another receptor one is freed up. All that can happen (as I see it) is receptor desensitization and increased insulin secretion due to unnatural levels.

About the desensitization issue- that's what the 3 x week was for.

Could you be confusing "desensitization" with adaptation? 3 weeks is great to avoid adaptation (a pattern burn in) along with mixing it up. However desensitization is rather immediate, well, better said, doesn't take long at all.

Check out Dat's post regarding it: http://www.professionalmuscle.com/f...c-1295-ghrp-6-basic-guides-74.html#post612855 I like his description:
"All desensitization is in simple terms is receptor signaling saying gives us a little break. So if you screw up and overwork the receptors they "fatigue" and don't respond as well.....If you do desensitize the receptor a simple break will restore full function again. A day or two or three if you really over did it."

So I guess what I am saying, 10IU is seriously overdoing it and will desensitize receptors.

I'm not advocating this btw. There are always several ways to skin a cat. I don't even use the high dose post workout route myself even when bulking.

I agree with this. Yes, high dosing is good for bulking! Sorry for being long winded, but you raised a lot of good points.

 

[bignripped]

i take 100 ghrp 6 100 cjc1295 first thing in the morning 30 min later 2 to 3 iu gh. on workout days i do 40mcgs igf pre and 10 iu humalog followed by 4 iu post on non work out days i used ghrp6 and cjc1295 1 or two more times in the afternoon or before bed]. if i wake up at night i the peps aswell. i just picked up mgf from ron and iwill be doing that post workout then the gh 20 min later. i love this combo lean gains all the way

any issue with gyno caused by peptides?

 

[chemicalwarrior]

You're right. But then I didn't say it would lead to "mass gains". However the method I did suggest will lead to greater gains, as compared to lower dosing, but without the undesired fat!



Could that be because what's been shown to occur on paper, may not be telling the entire story?



You mentioned that mass gains can be achieved by a single high dose. While I do not disgree with this, as I do agree - where my problem is -- just exactly what types of gains does one receive? Just lean muscle or LM along with? May I suggest (again referring to "paper" or studies findings, my life has experienced this too) is that larger doses which immediately saturate and will maintain sat levels for (depending on size of dose) a good day or more!

Are we always watchful of insulin levels? I've quoted this from a Review once before,

"recombinant growth hormone will bind to growth hormone receptors and directly affect the following: antagonism of peripheral actions of insulin and increasing insulin secretion,"

Due to increased insulin secretion the gains one will probably experience may not be as desired as is LBM. Further, prolonged usage of HGH, or expedited via higher dosing eventually causes insulin resistance - this is a direct result of the continued or "increasing insulin secretion" from the synthetic GH.

So what else can contribute to "mass gains" other than the GH itself? I mean a larger dose of GH won't create additional GH receptors. Once receptors are saturated, that's it! You're done until another receptor one is freed up. All that can happen (as I see it) is receptor desensitization and increased insulin secretion due to unnatural levels.




Could you be confusing "desensitization" with adaptation? 3 weeks is great to avoid adaptation (a pattern burn in) along with mixing it up. However desensitization is rather immediate, well, better said, doesn't take long at all.

Check out Dat's post regarding it: http://www.professionalmuscle.com/f...c-1295-ghrp-6-basic-guides-74.html#post612855 I like his description:
"All desensitization is in simple terms is receptor signaling saying gives us a little break. So if you screw up and overwork the receptors they "fatigue" and don't respond as well.....If you do desensitize the receptor a simple break will restore full function again. A day or two or three if you really over did it."

So I guess what I am saying, 10IU is seriously overdoing it and will desensitize receptors.



I agree with this. Yes, high dosing is good for bulking! Sorry for being long winded, but you raised a lot of good points.

Well, basically what I'm taking away from what you've got here is that it's superior to do said higher dose in a broken-up multiple dose form vs. all in one big dose. And, one of the reasons is to prevent desensitizing the receptors. Another is to take full advantage of gh's fat loss capabilities.

All I can say is that you are very likely correct. But, I'm still not sure on the issue of desensitizing receptors. I really don't think that even a large dose of gh is going to stay around in the system for too terribly long. But, I'll admit I'm just guessing based on it's half life. Think about insulin for example. If you did a huge dose of humalog, say 15 or 20 iu in one dose, it'd be out of your system roughly in the same amount of time that 2 or 4 or 10 iu was. I'm basing this on experiences with various doses of humalog (from 2- 10 iu) going by feel alone, so I can't back it up per se. But, are you saying that GH works much differently than that?

I know GH stimulates igf-1 production and that binds not only to igf-1 receptors but also insulin receptors. So, I can see how there'd be a kind of "reverberating" effect systemically. But, I still tend to think it'll clear your system with in an hour or two, maybe two and a half at the most. That leaves you the rest of the day, the next day, and all the way up until the next dose- if doing just 3 times per week post workout.

So, no I'm not confusing desensitization with adaptation. I get all that. I just still contend that GH won't stay in your system or affect insulin long enough to cause a major, sustained interruption as long as there is a day off in between, or at least with much lower doses. And, I've got nothing to back this up. It's just opinion.

You are making great points and I wouldn't be a bit surprised to see you end up being totally right about this. I just hold a different "guess" about all this at the moment. And, perhaps one of the reasons that huge dose causes better mass gains is because of the insulin stimulation etc. Not saying that's the healthiest, but could explain some things I guess.

 

[123cctv]

But, I still tend to think it'll clear your system with in an hour or two, maybe two and a half at the most.

I believe this is the only area that I will differ with -- half life is irrelevant to existing GH serum levels, this being the amount of time hormonal levels are elevated, prior to returning to baseline as this directly affects sensitization prior to the next dose. The rest of what you've said I agree with!

Here is a study that a legit rHGH manufacturer conducted. It utilized one single 10IU SC dose. **broken link removed**

The site/page has some nice info on it. However note the full 24 hour graph (seen below as well). The issue here is GH serum levels did not return to baseline until 24+ hours later, i.e. after a single 10IU dose and it's at this level (lower hormonal levels) that are a neccesary environment for receptor sensitivity.

Again, I know you said EOD - that's awesome so don't misunderstand what I'm saying here. My real point was -- could it be better? I think so.

And, perhaps one of the reasons that huge dose causes better mass gains is because of the insulin stimulation etc. Not saying that's the healthiest, but could explain some things I guess.

By the way, did you catch what the above site said? This ties into what I was suggesting earlier: "Large doses of human growth hormone may impair glucose tolerance"

Anyhow my concerns were to avoid large doses via breaking them up, thereby avoiding sustained sat levels which is unnatural to bodiy secretion and to avoid increased levels of insulin. Other than that, we are singing the same tune.


Figure 1. Mean serum hGH levels over time following single dose administration.

 

[chemicalwarrior]

Very interesting stuff. I guess if someone wanted to be a renegade and not give a crap about their insulin sensitivity and just use a lot of GH all the time, those huge doses would probably be still more effective. But, you are right, it's not the healthiest/most efficient way to go.

Truthfully, that's why I don't do it that way myself anymore. Did I see gains from it? Yeah. But, honestly, it wasn't all that impressive of gains even at that level of use. For me I tend to see GH as more of a cutting/joint repair/general health drug. Unless you are using a ton of it a day it's not going to do much. The way you outlined (say 3 iu, 3 x day) makes sense. I just don't know how much difference it's going to make when it comes to desensitizing etc. My guess is that you are still going to see a lot of the same side effects over the long haul. (Yes, that's more speculation, just thinking outloud.)

That's why for me I stick with using very low doses of gh along with gh peptides to take advantage of the synergy etc. I'm guessing you do the same.

Thanks for posting what you did. It opens my eyes to just how those large doses can really mess with the system! And, that's the most important thing to learn- how things may fuck up our health and how to avoid that! And, I had no idea it had effects that long in the system at that dose! That's wild!

 

[wasp]

4ius a day, will never go above that, ever

 

[bnj]

Has anyone here been 220 lbs lean and stuck, then used a hgh plan to get to 250 lbs lean and big?

 

[chemicalwarrior]

Has anyone here been 220 lbs lean and stuck, then used a hgh plan to get to 250 lbs lean and big?

GH/gh peptides to keep lean, test as a base and insulin to push past that sticking point. But, insulin is tricky stuff. I know how I like to use it, but, there are a lot of ideas on it out there and it can be very dangerous. The main thing overall though is to get those calories in. You can stay relatively lean while eating a lot of calories with gh.

 

[shovelhed82]

4ius a day, will never go above that, ever

Exactly! I don't see how some of these guys go so high with the iu's. I can't handle the stiff hands and shit. Hell, I'm back down at 2iu for awhile...

 

[lou85]

I had good muscle gain on 5 ius ed for 8 months the sides wouldnt let me go any higher

 

[TeknoViking]

I had good muscle gain on 5 ius ed for 8 months the sides wouldnt let me go any higher

what are your stats now and then? age to please.

 

[Thebigone]

Personally IMO random doses shot IM throughout the day is best. Same is best for fatloss. From what ive read recently you dont really want constant long elevated IGF levels. You want high spikes throught the day. Example instead of 9iu PWO your better off with 3iu am 3iu pwo 3iu early eveneing and let your natty pulse hit at night. Keep doses around 2-4hrs apart with 2-3iu incriments.