• All new members please introduce your self here and welcome to the board:
    http://www.professionalmuscle.com/forums/showthread.php?t=259
Buy Needles And Syringes With No Prescription
M4B Store Banner
ddd
Riptropin Store banner
Generation X Bodybuilding Forum
Buy Needles And Syringes With No Prescription
Buy Needles And Syringes With No Prescription
Mysupps Store Banner
IP Gear Store Banner
Anabolic Hormones Store Banner
Ganabol Store Banner
Spend $100 and get bonus needles free at sterile syringes
Professional Muscle Store open now
LandmarkChem Email Banner
Medtech Store Banner
Bruce Labs Store banner
advertise on professional muscle millions of hits per month
Professional Muscle Store open now
over 5000 supplements on sale at professional muscle store
over 5000 supplements on sale at professional muscle store
over 5000 supplements on sale at professional muscle store
over 5000 supplements on sale at professional muscle store
over 5000 supplements on sale at professional muscle store
over 5000 supplements on sale at professional muscle store

HGH Tolerance Study Why EOD May be Better

dragonfire101

Active member
Kilo Klub Member
Registered
Joined
Sep 25, 2002
Messages
5,854
I posted this a few years ago figure I bring it back up. HGH Tolerance Study Why EOD May be Better.



Clin Endocrinol Metab. 2002 Aug;87(8):3573-7. Related Articles, Links


Prevention of growth deceleration after withdrawal of growth hormone therapy in idiopathic short stature.


Lampit M, Hochberg Z.

Department of Pediatrics, Meyer Children's Hospital, Haifa 31096, Israel.

The treatment of children with idiopathic short stature by daily injections of human GH (hGH) is followed after its withdrawal by a growth deceleration with normal serum GH and IGF-I levels. The present study was designed to understand and prevent growth deceleration. We hypothesized that this phenomenon is due to tolerance at the target organ level, that tolerance develops in response to the unphysiological pharmacokinetics of daily-injected hGH, and that alternate day hGH therapy will prevent it. Thirty-eight prepubertal children with idiopathic short stature, aged 3.3-9.0 yr, were studied. Their heights were less than -2 SD score, growth rate was above the 10th percentile for age, bone age was less than 75% of chronological age, and the stimulated serum GH concentration was greater than 10 microg/liter. The children were matched for sex, height, and growth velocity SD score to receive daily or alternate day hGH at the same weekly dose of 6 mg/m(2) for a period of 2 yr. The 1st and 2nd year mean growth velocities were 3.4 and 2.3 SD score for the daily therapy group and 3.0 and 2.0 SD score for the alternate day group, respectively (P = NS). Over the initial 6 months after withdrawal of therapy, and growth velocity decelerated to a nadir of -3.9 SD score in the daily therapy group, whereas it decelerated in the alternate day group to only -0.2 SD score (P < 0.01). Over the entire 2 yr off therapy the latter group maintained mean growth rates of -0.2 to -1.2 SD score, similar to their pretreatment velocities. The daily group recovered slowly to resume their mean pretreatment rate only on the fourth semiannual evaluation off therapy. The cumulative 4-yr growth velocity (2 yr on and 2 yr off therapy) of the alternate day group was greater than that of the daily therapy group (mean, 0.9 vs. 0.3 SD score; P < 0.002). At the end of the 4-yr therapy period, the adult height prediction of the alternate day group was greater than that of the daily group by a mean 6.5 cm (P = 0.06). It is concluded that growth deceleration after withdrawal of hGH therapy in idiopathic short stature is due to tolerance to GH and IGF-I in response to the unphysiological pharmacokinetics of daily-injected hGH and that alternate day therapy allows for an alternate day physiological GH profile, thus preventing tolerance during therapy and growth deceleration thereafter.

Publication Types:
Clinical Trial
Controlled Clinical Trial

PMID: 12161476 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
 

123cctv

Banned
Joined
Apr 4, 2009
Messages
745
We hypothesized that this phenomenon is due to tolerance at the target organ level, that tolerance develops in response to the unphysiological pharmacokinetics of daily-injected hGH, and that alternate day hGH therapy will prevent it.


ED dosing is doomed to fail. 5 on 2 off are better. However the more breaks you give yourself, the better -- sensitivity is always key.

Good study.
 

hawkmoon

Featured Member / Kilo Klub
Featured Member
Kilo Klub Member
Registered
Joined
Sep 6, 2008
Messages
1,752
EOD, high-dose, short duration works for me.
 

Thebigone

New member
Kilo Klub Member
Joined
Oct 28, 2009
Messages
3,621
ED dosing is doomed to fail. 5 on 2 off are better. However the more breaks you give yourself, the better -- sensitivity is always key.

Good study.
Is this the same with ghrp's and ghrh's
 

hemipower

Active member
Kilo Klub Member
Registered
Joined
Dec 3, 2008
Messages
1,186
ED dosing is doomed to fail. 5 on 2 off are better. However the more breaks you give yourself, the better -- sensitivity is always key.

Good study.


This is exactly what I was going to ask...I have used GH for about 7 mos now generally about 2-4 units a day 5-6 days a week...great results with proper diet and training!!!

Now I want to focus on staying kinda lean but mainly adding mass to my tris/bis and calves and was curious what effect it would have if I only took GH in higher doses (say 5 ius) ONLY on the days I train those parts...
Would I do it in the morning on empty stomach? PWO with my shake? Split the dose and do 2.5 in the am and 2.5 pwo? Before bed? Still using peptides before bed most nights...

Of course my diet is still pretty good (not dieting any longer but still eat well and get my good protein, carbs and fat numbers I need daily...plus "other" foods when I want) and I am on moderate dosed AAS (test, eq, deca).

Any guidance or experience appreciated...all I have used gh for is getting lean and it worked great but now my goals are size in specific areas and healing/recovery....
 

dyno

New member
Registered
Joined
Jun 7, 2009
Messages
83
A friend of mine after years of pharma grade hGH use, 1 or 2 IU daily with good results, now he's using 4/5 IU daily for 2 weeks and 3 weeks off. results are better, no doubt, same diet and life style.
 

Vinman66

New member
Newbies
Joined
Oct 13, 2009
Messages
14
This is exactly what I was going to ask...I have used GH for about 7 mos now generally about 2-4 units a day 5-6 days a week...great results with proper diet and training!!!

Now I want to focus on staying kinda lean but mainly adding mass to my tris/bis and calves and was curious what effect it would have if I only took GH in higher doses (say 5 ius) ONLY on the days I train those parts...
Would I do it in the morning on empty stomach? PWO with my shake? Split the dose and do 2.5 in the am and 2.5 pwo? Before bed? Still using peptides before bed most nights...

Of course my diet is still pretty good (not dieting any longer but still eat well and get my good protein, carbs and fat numbers I need daily...plus "other" foods when I want) and I am on moderate dosed AAS (test, eq, deca).

Any guidance or experience appreciated...all I have used gh for is getting lean and it worked great but now my goals are size in specific areas and healing/recovery....
So you're wondering how to use the GH to increase mass? Then what's the point of the moderate doses of AAS? I get the EQ and the Deca for dry gains, but what's the test for? If you want mass increase the test levels, you're already taking plenty of growth hormone. People that think they can stay lean while gaining mass are kidding themselves for the most part.
 

hemipower

Active member
Kilo Klub Member
Registered
Joined
Dec 3, 2008
Messages
1,186
So you're wondering how to use the GH to increase mass? Then what's the point of the moderate doses of AAS? I get the EQ and the Deca for dry gains, but what's the test for? If you want mass increase the test levels, you're already taking plenty of growth hormone. People that think they can stay lean while gaining mass are kidding themselves for the most part.
Diet is key in gaining size...my AAS use is sufficient to elicit growth (for me) but I may bump the test up some...every 5th day 250mg test Cyp or enanth, 125mg deca and 300mg eq. I know that is considered LOW dose but that's how I have done it for years, I prefer longer cycles or cruising on low test then adding in the other hormones as my "blast"...my days of 1000mg test, 900mg deca and a handful of dbol a day are over. :naughty:
I always take test in every cycle...I would never take another test like hormone that will shut me down without using test as a base...and hcg as my doc prescribes throughout...

My question really just stems from how I can change my gh dosing to target it's use for size gains, specifically in certain areas...as in, if I only took say 5iu on the 2 days a week I train arms and legs...opposed to taking 2iu DAILY (5-6 days a week)...what effect would this have? Would it help add size? Would it be a waste? Would my antibodies increase that much more or would I decrease my insulin sensitivity due to the higher dose?

All I really know about with GH is what I have already done...2-3 (sometimes 4) iu taken in split dose 5-6 days per week. I have seen what that does. I don't think I can stay SHREDDED and gain size but last year I bulked to near 250 lbs and I don't want to be that fat again. I dieted down to ~6% bodyfat and did a photo shoot for the first time in years but I was only 209 lbs! I liked my look overall minus tris, calves and maybe some quad size, hence the desire to put some quality mass on in those areas mainly and not BULK to that weight again. Thinking 230 lbs tops this winter...which is what I meant by fairly lean...LOL that's not that lean for me.
 

Johnny Smiles

Banned
Registered
Joined
Jun 9, 2009
Messages
2,568
i don't think it will work for improving lagging body parts like you are suggesting.
i think you would need to go atleast 10iu gh to MAYBE get size gains from gh but i don't know cuz in my past i always ran kinda high test with gh so can't say for sure....
-JS
 

J_Diggs

New member
Registered
Joined
Jun 1, 2010
Messages
580
EOD, high-dose, short duration works for me.
May I ask what your exact protocol is and also what purpose you use it for (fat burning, muscle gain, etc)? Thanks in advance.
 

123cctv

Banned
Joined
Apr 4, 2009
Messages
745
now he's using 4/5 IU daily for 2 weeks and 3 weeks off. results are better,
God I love that! Though it might be a bit overkill. 2 weeks off should create sufficient sensitivity, thus I'd reverse the two, i.e. 3 week on and 2 weeks off.
 

123cctv

Banned
Joined
Apr 4, 2009
Messages
745
My question really just stems from how I can change my gh dosing to target it's use for size gains, specifically in certain areas...as in, if I only took say 5iu on the 2 days a week I train arms and legs...opposed to taking 2iu DAILY (5-6 days a week)...what effect would this have? Would it help add size? Would it be a waste? Would my antibodies increase that much more or would I decrease my insulin sensitivity due to the higher dose?
Note I edited my response to you in the prior post. To answer these questions it will not be a waste and 5IU split (2/3) is not enough to warrant concern about anit-bodies, though they certainly may already exist, they however should not negate GH response at minimal dosing such as this.
 

BIG DUB

New member
Registered
Joined
Oct 12, 2002
Messages
280
After reading this study i wanted to find out what the doses of GH were talking about here. For idiopathic short stature the dosing is .37mg/kg/wk according to the humatrope prescribing information. The average age in the study was 6 years old. The average 6 year old is about 50lbs or 23kilos. 23kg/.37mg = 9mg or 27ius per week. Divided into 6-7 daily shots as per the prescribing info, thats roughly 4iu per day for a 50lb child. I could see why desensitization would occur with high igf-1 levels around the clock for such a small body surface area. Now for an adult the dosing would alot higher given the increase in bsa. I don't think this study could compare to the average dose of 2-4ius that the average bber would use. Just my 0.02
 

hemipower

Active member
Kilo Klub Member
Registered
Joined
Dec 3, 2008
Messages
1,186
Note I edited my response to you in the prior post. To answer these questions it will not be a waste and 5IU split (2/3) is not enough to warrant concern about anit-bodies, though they certainly may already exist, they however should not negate GH response at minimal dosing such as this.
Ok thank you for the insight!!
I will change my protocol to 2iu am and 3 pre or post workout with protein...
I will really only be doing this 2-3 days a week in hopes of getting a response from gh again...
and I intend to continue using peptides (ghrp2 and cjc1295 100/100) before bed most nights...probably 3-4 times a week... :)
 

KillerStack

Well-known member
Kilo Klub Member
Registered
Joined
May 19, 2004
Messages
3,577
How is this study supporting EOD dosing for bodybuilding purposes?

And did everyone who has quoted this study for years miss this?

The 1st and 2nd year mean growth velocities were 3.4 and 2.3 SD score for the daily therapy group and 3.0 and 2.0 SD score for the alternate day group, respectively (P = NS).
Now I may be reading this wrong, but doesn't it say the ED group had more growth during therapy, for 1 and 2 years?? The growth decelerated more after therapy though.

Also this study focused on bone as target organ. It didn't measure fat loss or muscle gain (what bodybuilders want of course).

Now, many seem to say EOD gives better results and that's fine, but it's another thing to say it has been proven that EOD dosing is better for bodybuilding purposes.
And don't forget, regarding the purported mechanism behind the growth deceleration:

We hypothesized
JMHO.
 

zaosha

Banned
Joined
Jan 23, 2009
Messages
116
How is this study supporting EOD dosing for bodybuilding purposes?

And did everyone who has quoted this study for years miss this?



Now I may be reading this wrong, but doesn't it say the ED group had more growth during therapy, for 1 and 2 years?? The growth decelerated more after therapy though.

Also this study focused on bone as target organ. It didn't measure fat loss or muscle gain (what bodybuilders want of course).

Now, many seem to say EOD gives better results and that's fine, but it's another thing to say it has been proven that EOD dosing is better for bodybuilding purposes.
And don't forget, regarding the purported mechanism behind the growth deceleration:



JMHO.
You are correct. The researchers were looking at the post-therapy growth rates. Once therapy was discontinued the alternate day group sustained far higher levels of growth post-therapy.

For those doing GH for BB'ing the study seems to support the general notion that EOD dosing will - assuming the same total weekly mg dosage - result in similar growth rates while on GH, but will leave you with substantially more benefit from your natural GH output once you go off.

As Killer points out though, extrapolating from long bone growth stimulation in prepubescent children to skeletal muscle growth/lipolytic activity in mature adults is highly questionable.

There is a lot of anecdotal support for the effectiveness of EOD dosing, PWO-only dosing, etc being just as effective as daily dosing so the idea seems to have some merit.

Multiple daily dosing of 100mcg mod GRF 1-29/100mcg GHRP6 would be the best of both worlds. With these peptides you retain the pulsatile nature of normal physiological GH release, so no desensitization due to chronic elevation.
 

123cctv

Banned
Joined
Apr 4, 2009
Messages
745
Considerations

While many of the concerns regarding the study are legit, I think the main point here is the fact that (this study aside) there are numerous long term studies (6mo, 1, 3-5yrs, etc) which do reflect that prolonged use of rHGH not only seems to exhibit several unwanted side effects (these vary), but worse, desired results eventually dwindle, i.e. beginning at approx 6 months or so via ED use. Even still, most of these findings are based on practical and or appropriate usage, not exaggerated BB'er type dosing.

No one wants the beneficial results to cease and of course, no one wants unhealthy side effects either. There are however solutions which do appear to yield sustainable desired results. ED dosing readily ushers in the inevitable, whereas EOD has the right idea, it still isn't a perfect solution.

Those who take breaks between runs, are at least for the most part following a logical pattern which should assist in sensitivity, that being a major issue in dwindling results. Maybe this is why those who take time off report favorable, and even sustainable results? I too can personally testify that this does work for me.

The following is what I believe to be the best SC protocol I've seen to date. It has the ability to maintain sensitivity (crucial for sustained results), as well as more closely mimic bodily secretion (another requirement for *better* response), though grants the body a break as well as confusion during schedule. The following is an example only. If I.V. were to be incorporated, this would vary.


7 on 7 off. This is essentially equal to an EOD protocol, but includes a well rounded down time that EOD does not offer.

Mix up your dosages.
An example:
1st day: 2IU & 1IU (3IU total)
2nd day: 4IU, 2IU & 1IU (6IU total)
3rd day: 3IU (3IU total)
4th day: 4IU, 2IU & 1IU (7IU total)
5th day: 2IU & 2IU (4IU total)
6th day: 3IU, 3IU & 1IU (7IU total)
7th day: 4IU. (4IU total)
Next week OFF.

Again, this is an example only! Depending on desired results, i.e. mass or LM gain, the above should be altered. More mass = larger doses. LM = smaller doses.

Dosing could also be worked to once a day, but not *as* beneficial as multiple times.

Larger doses should always be on a WO day. Attempt to take the largest that day within 10 minutes of WO, Pre or Post.

Note, one days dosage is followed by a larger dosage protocol the following day. This protocol will assist with confusion and thwart adaptation and capable of being continued indefinitely = no worry of desensitization.
 

Forum statistics

Total page views
500,237,165
Threads
123,050
Messages
2,335,212
Members
154,907
Latest member
jimmyv1966
Top