• All new members please introduce your self here and welcome to the board:
    http://www.professionalmuscle.com/forums/showthread.php?t=259
Buy Needles And Syringes With No Prescription
M4B Store Banner
intex
Riptropin Store banner
Generation X Bodybuilding Forum
Buy Needles And Syringes With No Prescription
Buy Needles And Syringes With No Prescription
Mysupps Store Banner
IP Gear Store Banner
PM-Ace-Labs
Ganabol Store Banner
Spend $100 and get bonus needles free at sterile syringes
Professional Muscle Store open now
sunrise2
PHARMAHGH1
kinglab
ganabol2
Professional Muscle Store open now
over 5000 supplements on sale at professional muscle store
azteca
granabolic1
napsgear-210x65
advertise1
over 5000 supplements on sale at professional muscle store
over 5000 supplements on sale at professional muscle store
ashp210
UGFREAK-banner-PM
esquel
YMSGIF210x65-Banner
over 5000 supplements on sale at professional muscle store
over 5000 supplements on sale at professional muscle store
over 5000 supplements on sale at professional muscle store
over 5000 supplements on sale at professional muscle store
over 5000 supplements on sale at professional muscle store
over 5000 supplements on sale at professional muscle store
over 5000 supplements on sale at professional muscle store

HIGH INSULIN dosage and elevated GGT

luki7788

Well-known member
Registered
Newbies
Joined
Feb 17, 2015
Messages
4,103
My question is for people who use or have experimented with higher doses of insulin for a longer period of time.

So on topic - I noticed in myself and also in a few other people who use high doses of insulin an increase in the liver GGT parameter. No one I talked to could explain it because all the rest, i.e. alt, ast, bilirubin, alkaline phase, are in the norm. Even ultrasound of the liver shows absolutely no changes or enlargement. Now I managed to find studies that say that high ggtp may be related to the development of type 2 diabetes - this could be true because all the people I know with the same condition use high doses of gh and insulin.

Personally I think the high use of synthetic insulin can falsify the GGT result in some way? it would even make sense since even an ultrasound examination shows absolutely no negative changes in the liver

Has anyone else who uses high doses of insulin noticed a similar thing in themselves?
 
Hyperinsulinemia via glucose intolerance / insulin resistance is a direct stressor of the liver.

It’s why constantly bombarding the liver with carbs (HFCS being the worst), leads to NAFLD.

High carb loads in active people / those that maintain overall good healthy (mostly through exercise and remaining somewhat lean), remain insulin-sensitive don’t typically incur this pathologic event.

That said, I think it’s safe to assume that exogenous insulin use would confer similar effects.

OP: This is me just thinking through this logically and not based on something I am 100% certain on.
 
My question is for people who use or have experimented with higher doses of insulin for a longer period of time.

So on topic - I noticed in myself and also in a few other people who use high doses of insulin an increase in the liver GGT parameter. No one I talked to could explain it because all the rest, i.e. alt, ast, bilirubin, alkaline phase, are in the norm. Even ultrasound of the liver shows absolutely no changes or enlargement. Now I managed to find studies that say that high ggtp may be related to the development of type 2 diabetes - this could be true because all the people I know with the same condition use high doses of gh and insulin.

Personally I think the high use of synthetic insulin can falsify the GGT result in some way? it would even make sense since even an ultrasound examination shows absolutely no negative changes in the liver

Has anyone else who uses high doses of insulin noticed a similar thing in themselves?
I confirm what you say, both about me and about an Italian pro who trains with me

I use 30 IU Humalog divided between pre and post, he uses 80 in almost all meals with even a high dosage of GH, we both have unbalanced liver values, but like you, perfect abdomen echo (liver, pancreas, kidneys, no problem) plus even the magnetic resonance did not give any problems, a bit like the CPK which in a bodybuilder, even if very tall, is common and does not create problems (if a doctor sees my CPK he sends me immediately to the hospital)
 
I confirm what you say, both about me and about an Italian pro who trains with me

I use 30 IU Humalog divided between pre and post, he uses 80 in almost all meals with even a high dosage of GH, we both have unbalanced liver values, but like you, perfect abdomen echo (liver, pancreas, kidneys, no problem) plus even the magnetic resonance did not give any problems, a bit like the CPK which in a bodybuilder, even if very tall, is common and does not create problems (if a doctor sees my CPK he sends me immediately to the hospital)
so what I suspected is confirmed - as you wrote, I associated it with creatine kinase, which in athletes can be several dozen times above the norm and it is completely normal and does not mean anything bad
 
I confirm what you say, both about me and about an Italian pro who trains with me

I use 30 IU Humalog divided between pre and post, he uses 80 in almost all meals with even a high dosage of GH, we both have unbalanced liver values, but like you, perfect abdomen echo (liver, pancreas, kidneys, no problem) plus even the magnetic resonance did not give any problems, a bit like the CPK which in a bodybuilder, even if very tall, is common and does not create problems (if a doctor sees my CPK he sends me immediately to the hospital)
so what I suspected is confirmed - as you wrote, I associated it with creatine kinase, which in athletes can be several dozen times above the norm and it is completely normal and does not mean anything bad
Interesting thread, watching this one (y)
 
Since the liver plays a big role in glucose metabolism, it makes sense why you'll see even one marker elevated in a hyperinsulin environment. Fasting insulin and triglycerides are markers to watch for early signs of insulin resistance. Worth keeping an eye on them as well

Elevated GGT even with normal markers for fasting glucose and normal ast/alt might be something to keep an eye on longterm. You won't really get any fasting glucose red flags taking large exogenous insulin doses since it will regulate that. But it can still keep you in a hyperinsulinemic state.

Nonethless it's healthier to regulate the glucose using insulin once you reach those crazy high carbohydrate levels. You already know this; but just have a timeline for how long you want to do this competitively. Hyperinsulinemia is linked to most chronic illnesses like atherosclerosis, neurodegeneration, T2D...
 
Interesting question, luki. My first thought is, how, may I ask, are you isolating exogenous insulin use & its effects on GGT from the confounds presented by combined AAS use? Was there a sufficient wash-out of AAS with respect to time, and can a trend be observed versus time on AAS? Next, do you have a sufficient sample of AAS without insulin use and respective measures of GGT values for that condition?

Other factors that I would make note of include the fact that the GGT enzyme is present too in pancreatic biliary epithelial cells. There may be primarily bile duct obstruction rather than any organic damage to liver cells. Note that whereas the liver is a highly resilient organ that can take substantial abuse that is reversible (up to the point of onset of liver disease), the kidneys & pancreas are less resilient.

I am not aware of GGT's being a bloodwork value that is subject to confusion with muscle cell damage caused by training (so unlike creatine kinase) nor one that is subject to false elevation by rhGH use (so unlike PSA, which is an IGFBP-3 protease).
 
I am not aware of GGT's being a bloodwork value that is subject to confusion with muscle cell damage caused by training (so unlike creatine kinase) nor one that is subject to false elevation by rhGH use (so unlike PSA, which is an IGFBP-3 protease).

You misunderstood me here - probably because of the language barrier it's hard for me to explain
 
Interesting question, luki. My first thought is, how, may I ask, are you isolating exogenous insulin use & its effects on GGT from the confounds presented by combined AAS use? Was there a sufficient wash-out of AAS with respect to time, and can a trend be observed versus time on AAS? Next, do you have a sufficient sample of AAS without insulin use and respective measures of GGT values for that condition?

Other factors that I would make note of include the fact that the GGT enzyme is present too in pancreatic biliary epithelial cells. There may be primarily bile duct obstruction rather than any organic damage to liver cells. Note that whereas the liver is a highly resilient organ that can take substantial abuse that is reversible (up to the point of onset of liver disease), the kidneys & pancreas are less resilient.
yes - I have noticed that the more insulin I use the more my ggt increases

ultrasound showed no changes in the pancreas, but I also considered obstruction of the bile ducts, but I don't have any symptoms that would indicate it
 
You misunderstood me here - probably because of the language barrier it's hard for me to explain
Do you mean that GGT is being elevated by insulin, but this can be ignored because it's irrelevant (not measuring bile duct obstruction or liver damage)?

yes - I have noticed that the more insulin I use the more my ggt increases

ultrasound showed no changes in the pancreas, but I also considered obstruction of the bile ducts, but I don't have any symptoms that would indicate it
Could it be that the GGT is just increasing with time, and that corresponds to a general increase of insulin; but the GGT is increasing because of some underlying pathology not actually related to insulin dose?

I know how difficult it is to practically root out cause within the limitations of remaining competitive and hitting goals in the gym.

It could be early yet for symptoms to arise; at the very least, keep an eye out for symptoms like nausea/vomiting, changes in stool colour, itching, fever, abdominal pain especially in the upper right side, jaundice, etc. Note that these may come on suddenly without warning or progressively over time.
 
Do you mean that GGT is being elevated by insulin, but this can be ignored because it's irrelevant (not measuring bile duct obstruction or liver damage)?


Could it be that the GGT is just increasing with time, and that corresponds to a general increase of insulin; but the GGT is increasing because of some underlying pathology not actually related to insulin dose?

I know how difficult it is to practically root out cause within the limitations of remaining competitive and hitting goals in the gym.

It could be early yet for symptoms to arise; at the very least, keep an eye out for symptoms like nausea/vomiting, changes in stool colour, itching, fever, abdominal pain especially in the upper right side, jaundice, etc. Note that these may come on suddenly without warning or progressively over time.
If I knew the answers to the questions you ask I wouldn't start this topic 😅 - I'm trying to explain it somehow because I've talked to a few bodybuilders also using high doses of insulin and they have a similar situation - but they have no signs of damage to the liver, pancreas or bile ducts - I'm looking for some real explanation but even no doctor could answer that question for me
 
If I knew the answers to the questions you ask I wouldn't start this topic 😅 - I'm trying to explain it somehow because I've talked to a few bodybuilders also using high doses of insulin and they have a similar situation - but they have no signs of damage to the liver, pancreas or bile ducts - I'm looking for some real explanation but even no doctor could answer that question for me
It's true that would be an interesting and novel finding if insulin in fact falsely elevates GGT. My initial impression is that insulin has been in widespread use for a century or so, and if that were the case it'd very likely have been discovered by now. I am going to ask around, discuss a bit with some smarter folks than myself, about your question and circumstances if that's OK with you.
 
It's true that would be an interesting and novel finding if insulin in fact falsely elevates GGT. My initial impression is that insulin has been in widespread use for a century or so, and if that were the case it'd very likely have been discovered by now. I am going to ask around, discuss a bit with some smarter folks than myself, about your question and circumstances if that's OK with you.
Of course I don't - that's why I started this topic for discussion and exchange of thoughts and hypotheses
 
But.... If insulin raises GGT... Then all diabetics type 1 should have that value high... I will ask to a friend of mine....
 
I don't think it's due to diabetes
does not produce its own insulin and you have yours + you add a large synthetic dose

it's just theorizing

I have just found that but it's what you wrote in the first post.

Thing is that too much insulin can create fatty liver... BUT if ultrasound is fine then Insulin can really make fake readings on GGT value.

I remember that when I was coached by Coach Steve and i was on 50iu Lantus daily my GGT was fine, but it's not like using 80iu plus of Humalog.

@thedorkyd1 did you have high GGT when using 200iu Insulin daily?
 

I have just found that but it's what you wrote in the first post.

Thing is that too much insulin can create fatty liver... BUT if ultrasound is fine then Insulin can really make fake readings on GGT value.

I remember that when I was coached by Coach Steve and i was on 50iu Lantus daily my GGT was fine, but it's not like using 80iu plus of Humalog.

@thedorkyd1 did you have high GGT when using 200iu Insulin daily?
I will answer for him because we talked - he has an increased GGT😅
 
I know several bodybuilders, including myself that have had a slight increase in GGT while doing longer cycles of insulin.

It’s my belief and others I have spoken to that it’s due to the increase of oxidative stress from high amounts of insulin in the body. It usually falls back into balance after reducing insulin intake.
 
The amounts BBers use can not be functionally applied to the few units per day that your typical T1D will use. Also keep in mind that their use is insulin replacement therapy (IRT).

I will be interested to see how this thread progresses. Very curious. Now we have at least two and more reports of this phenomenon.

My first thought is that it has something to do with the high carb load stressing the liver and bile ducts and/or pancreas rather than daily large amounts of insulin itself or perhaps the diet is too low in fats and gives bile time to accumulate in the gall bladder resulting in obstruction or sediment.

Unfortunately, the only way to know would be do discontinue use of one or the other for a period then retest. This is impossible because then the insulin would be severely dangerous in the absence of blood sugar -or- the excess blood sugar could result in loss in endogenous insulin sensitivity, T2D, and accumulation of adipose tissue.
 

Forum statistics

Total page views
558,044,919
Threads
135,757
Messages
2,768,626
Members
160,341
Latest member
Sickxlost
NapsGear
HGH Power Store email banner
your-raws
Prowrist straps store banner
infinity
FLASHING-BOTTOM-BANNER-210x131
raws
Savage Labs Store email
Syntherol Site Enhancing Oil Synthol
aqpharma
yourmuscleshop210x131
hulabs
ezgif-com-resize-2-1
MA Research Chem store banner
MA Supps Store Banner
volartek
Keytech banner
musclechem
Godbullraw-bottom-banner
Injection Instructions for beginners
Knight Labs store email banner
3
ashp131
YMS-210x131-V02
Back
Top