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High volume vs low volume

I used to train really heavy and clean. Used to compete in powerlifting in the early 80's (yup I'm old, 47 yikes).
At 165 I was doing 525 X 2 deep squats with suit and wraps. 90's competed drug free bodybuilding and won numerous shows.
Currently I train reps of 10, 30 second rest, numerous sets, about 30 sets per bp, and keep weight do-able. When I start going heavy my elbows, knees and back kill me. I am very prone to tendonitis.
I have had 6 knee sugeries for patella tendonitis. have had elbow, and a disk injury to my neck.
I love going heavy but my body screams at me whether I am taking supplements or not.
Damn old age (LOL)

Damn you look awesome man. You should or probably already are compete in some masters show. I only hope to look that good at 47. I aint to far away but not to close either. I see it works for you. MM
 
you are correct but i don't think volume training taxes the CNS like heavy slag iron does.

what happens if you work your way up to using the same weight your using now but with only 30 second rests and doing more sets than your doing doing, would you be bigger?

you want to make if real simple, who lifts the most in the least amount of time. always push to lift more in less time.
 
Thank you MM

Thank you for the nice compliment.
I haven't competed since 1994.
That photo was taken Sept 13, so about 6 months ago.
I was weighing about 180-185 and I'm 5'6.
Like I said I try to keep the movements some what slow and the rest no more than 30 seconds.
I'm not saying by any means that this is the only way to train but in my situation with my joints giving me so many problems it's just about the only way I can train.
If I increase the rest to a minute I use heavier weight because I recover more then my joints start killing me.
 
Good Article Vitobrata...I am really nothing special physique wise, just a junky about reading about BB- from everything ive read and saw i believe that progressive intensity is the key..for most , and what you've seen in the thread is that progressively higher resistance is what has lead most to generating more intensity...
 
MY huge problem with that article and anyone who argues against heavy training is they think its about a certain rep range......HUH? Who made the law that heavy = anything below 6 reps?

Heavy can be as heavy as you can use for 8 reps, 10 reps, 12 reps, 15 reps, 20 reps.

I cannot stand the guys who need to put things in these neat little boxes in bodybuilding, heavy has to go here, HIT has to go here, volume has to go over there, etc etc etc.

My guys train heavy as a MF and you would probably be hard pressed to find many seriously advanced guys that go to failure anywhere before their 8th rep on the first rest pause.

Ive seen this repeatedly over the years where various people on the boards associate heavy with doing 2-3 reps......where did you get that idea? Thats your own idea of it.....and in my opinion its wrong!

If you are doing 405 for 20 in a deep squat.....thats downright heavy......if you are doing a 365 reverse grip bench press for 20 reps rest paused (12+5+3) thats downright heavy.....but alot less dangerous than some guy doing 375pounds in this forum for 7 reps to failure on the reverse bench press who thinks he is doing moderate reps.

I never have understood why people get so confused on what makes a person larger muscularly. Do you really think if Ronnie Coleman in his 4th week of lifting thought "hey this is pretty comfortable I think Ill stay with 185 benches, 225 squats and 185 deadlifts the rest of my career" that you would see this below in the black and white picture? If weight doesnt matter at all....then why the heck take a chance....take the EZ chair recliner route and lift comfortably.

Three bodybuilders with similiar genetics and roughly the same height....Flex Wheeler, Chris Cormier, Ronnie Coleman. And I would venture to say that Flex had the best bodybuilder genetics out of those three. Now what were they known for.
Flex = comfortable training and competed at 218 to 228 onstage with 236 I believe his highest ever

Chris Cormier = Heavy training with bigtime weights and even with a beginning silhouette like Wheelers he was able to compete at 240 to 258 onstage with 262 I believe being his highest. So he got onstage roughly 25-30 pounds more muscle mass past Flex Wheeler.

Ronnie Coleman = forkift training....strongest bodybuilder in the world, used training poundages that were ridiculous....competed at 302 pounds at the Russian Grand Prix and won Olympias at 296 and 287 pounds respectively.........you make the call.

I see guys on other threads saying various things about random bodybuilders "oh they should of trained like Shawn Ray or Flex Wheeler and gotten the classical physique".....what?!?! Please post your pic so i can see what that classical physique training is all about and we can as a forum make the decision that you now have a carbon copy physique of Flex or Shawn Ray.

Do you really think Markus, Nasser, Dorian, and others could possible change their genetics and create a wasp waist ala doing Flex/Shawn's training? Please.....

Mike Mattarrazzo and Mike Francoise are 2 prime examples of people who knew they didnt have the god given shape of Flex Wheeler and decided to go at him like a sledgehammer. Both those guys got so big that they made the judges decide to give them the call over Flex. Mattarrazzo at the USA's and Francoise later on at the Arnold Classic. Nothing they could of done training wise would of ever made them ever have the physique of Flex Wheeler so Francoise rack deadlifted and powerbuilt his way to a massive contest winning physique.

400 pro bodybuilders out there using the same drugs and all with god given genetics and who are the continual ones that rise to the creme of the crop in thickness? Power bodybuilders......Johnny Jackson, Branch Warren, the aforementioned Francoise, Coleman, Cormier, Ruhl, Yates, Dennis James. etc etc etc etc

Then you get the lone knight in the dark yelling the Paul Dillett and Vince Taylor card.......great lets hope you had the same mom and pop as Paul and Vince then because millions of people across America are taking the "comfortable training" route and they sure dont look like Paul or Vince.

I dont get why this is so hard......forever increase intensity? Ok today your going to do super sets....tommorow you need to beat that intensity to get better....what are you going to do four years from now? Giant sets that are rest paused, staggered and then drop setted and then forced reps and then partials followed by static holds followed by negative only reps? Youll be a psychotic mess trying to forever beat your last intensity session.

Increase the weight and beat what you did yesterday and you took care of the problem.

Its pretty darn easy to be honest with you this whole hypertrophy thing. If today in your first workout you can do (after warmups)

incline presses 135 x 12
military presses 95 x 12
reverse grip bench presses 95 x 12
barbell curls 55 x 12
reverse curls 20 x 12
pulldowns 110 x 12
deadlifts 135 x 12
squats 135 x 12
leg curls 90 x 12
standing calves 90 x 12

and you train for the next 5 years using intensity techniques and semi comfortable training and you see that your doing

incline presses 155 x 12
military presses 115 x 12
reverse grip bench presses 120 x 12
barbell curls 70 x 12
reverse curls 30 x 12
pulldowns 140 x 12
deadlifts 185 x 12
squats 185 x 12
leg curls 115 x 12
standing calves 110 x 12

You sure as hell aint going to be that big.

But if you went down a path of progressive strength training switching out exercises at plateaus and plotted out a gameplan of pushing yourself along with the proper eating and 5-6years later found yourself doing

incline presses 365 x 12
military presses 275 x 12
reverse grip bench presses 365 x 12
barbell curls 225 x 12
reverse curls 90 x 12
pulldowns 350 x 12
deadlifts 500 x 12
squats 500 x 12
leg curls 225 x 12
standing calves 450 x 12

You are going to be a big MF.

Almost seems to easy doesnt it to the chronic OCD overanalyzers that make up the majority of the bodybuilding world

I hate to be a dickhead and use one of my guys .......but for example im going to. Dusty Hanshaw ....heck when i first joined this board around 2004 or so, nobody ever heard of him. Do you know why? Because he was a ex hockey player just kind of getting into the swing of this bodybuilding thing and he was smaller than the majority of the guys on this board right now.
That guy has never used GH, has never used insulin, and a huge amount of ego's on this board would be red faced and embarrassed if they ever compared what they themselves do ergo wise to him.
What separated him from the pack to where he is one of the biggest of the big on these boards and his name is being mentioned now nationally?

He ate his way up progressively, and trained his way up progressively to become the big dog on the block and flew right by thousands of bodybuilders on these boards in doing so where he now shakes floorboards at nearly 300 offseason and walks onstage at 242-255 at 5'11"

http://www.chadnicholls.net/forums/showthread.php?t=56653

It pains me to see the same guys on these boards year after year jumping around like a chicken with your head cut off when "how to get it fucking done and getting it fucking done" is right there in front of you.....yet it is a continual clusterfuck of mindgames of "is there a secret? Is that guy using a secret compound? He must be doing something secretive that I dont know about, he must be abusing himself because he used to be smaller than me and now he is 2x my size"

No he just stopped overanalyzing everything and got down to brass tacks. This endeavor is about beating today what you did yesterday and beating tommorow what you did today and being 2x better than you were last year at this time.....and if more people developed a gameplan about where you need to be next year on April 6th compared to where you were this year on April 6th......they would be alot more successful. But bodybuilders with the mentality they have dont think in that concept and think of todays workout only. You can mindmuscle connection 35 pound dumbells for 11 reps all you want till the cows come home....but ill give you some factual reality.......if in 10 years you are still mindmuscle connection repping 35 pound dumbells for 11 reps make sure you also make the connection of the tape measure around that bicep because its going to have the same reading it did a decade ago.

Thats my rant for the day......I cant get rid of this cough and im bitchy.
 

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I just train to failure on every set after warmup whatever that is, that's what it is. Generally my goal is always 10-12 reps. I always try to go heavier on every workout. Some days you just are stronger than others. I always do a negative at the end and 5-6 partial reps if I can get them. I'm a dumbell presser so I can do some things you just can't on flat bench w/o a spotter.
 
I like that DC, so more or less you can train heavy at 15 reps and you can train heavy with 6 reps but regardless it comes down to the intensity ?
 
I used to train really heavy and clean. Used to compete in powerlifting in the early 80's (yup I'm old, 47 yikes).
.(LOL)

great looking physique. great job. a higher rep is the first thing that comes to mind for "older" folks. i'll be 38 in July and i have to be a bit more mindfull of poundages. the thing with me is that certain lifts i'm just not all that strong. some guy asked me the other day the classic line "how much do you bench", i said, "not very much, besides i don't do 1 rep maxes" and left it at that
 
dog certainly makes some great points. maybe someone can answer a few questions for me as he emphasizes the progressive poundage principle as essential to muscle growth. powerlifters are much stronger than bodybuilders, but bodybuilders are generaly bigger.
and two, there is a ceiling to our strength levels, after many years of training, strength increases slow and even stop, if they didn't people would be able to move thousands of pounds. i know DC drops the exercise when the strength increases stop(im pretty sure this is a principal)for that particular exercise. does this mean that for example there is no benefit to ever doing that exercise at a "lower" weight than what had been previously used?
 
dog certainly makes some great points. maybe someone can answer a few questions for me as he emphasizes the progressive poundage principle as essential to muscle growth. powerlifters are much stronger than bodybuilders, but bodybuilders are generaly bigger.
and two, there is a ceiling to our strength levels, after many years of training, strength increases slow and even stop, if they didn't people would be able to move thousands of pounds. i know DC drops the exercise when the strength increases stop(im pretty sure this is a principal)for that particular exercise. does this mean that for example there is no benefit to ever doing that exercise at a "lower" weight than what had been previously used?


If you are talking about powerlifters that are trying to stay in weight classes and eat accordingly to stay down under a certain weight then thats the explanation for the lighter weight classes.....but I sure as heck havent seen too many small superheavyweight powerlifters. Ronnie Coleman came over from powerlifting as did Johnny Jackson. The pro bodybuilders who train like powerbuilders in the sport of bodybuilding all beat the thickness of their fellow pro's who pump train. When a powerlifter decides to diet down off all that bodyfat and jump in a bodybuilding show....it can get real embarrassing quickly to bodybuilders next to him

http://www.chadnicholls.net/forums/showpost.php?p=788926&postcount=32

Second part: When you come back to that dropped exercise....you have trained and trained to be a stronger individual and you will start lower than when you left off but will soon fly right by where you left off up to a new plateau.

Simply put, if every single guy in this forum found his rep ranges that he feels he grew best on and he could train safely at.......the day he gets to his ultimate strength potential for 10 or 12 or 15 or 20 reps on those bodyparts whatever he deems his most beneficial rep range may be ......will be the day he is at his ultimate size potential.....according to the unique genetics his mom and pop allowed him.... (Simply put, I dont care how you got there, creatine, eating, steroids, gh, natural, the day you can flat bench press 200 pound dumbells for 20 reps, incline barbell press 455 for 20 reps, and hammer strength 760 pounds each side for 20 reps will be the day your pecs are there absolute thickest......and you will probably never get there but the path in trying to get there will get you progressing very fast.

No you probably wont be squatting 765 for 20 deep reps anytime soon but if you did, I'm willing to bet a good amount of money that your quads would be tremendously bigger than supersetting 185 pound front squats with 135 pound lunges.
 
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Bump!

Bump on what Dante had to say. its not that complicated. pick a strategy and stick with it. eat big, lift heavy, rest often, and you'll grow.
 
Dante, just to pick your brain a second regarding the powerlifter v. bodybuilder subject, isnt there a relative volume requirement for growth? Lets say someone trained only in the 1-5 rep range, low number of sets- and got extremely strong...do you think they'd still get an impressive amount of size with their strength?
Also, a reason why i think your training system works so well is because it requires progressive effort/intensity- you HAVE to dig deep inside to progress- pardon the expression but its not for puss#es
 
Ill tell you what else bothers me since im ranting today....

People who forget totally of where all their muscle came from.

Ive seen the following scenarios too many times to count.

1) Guy bulks up bigtime and trains heavy for years and walks around with yep a little too much bodyfat and yep probably a little bit unhappy at times because of that bodyfat. He then decides to do a precontest diet and train lighter because
a) he is getting up in years
b) he no longer wants to be the big smooth bloated guy
c) he is unhappy

So takes off all the bodyfat, looks like a million bucks and tells everyone within 1000 miles listening distance that "his training is going awesome and he is making the best gains of his life".....because lets face it noone wants to say "yea what im doing trainingwise isnt doing jack crap to be honest with you" and noone wants to think that the training they are doing right now isnt the "100% tip top elite best training they could be doing to themselves" so they convince themselves and everyone in listening distance of just that.

Reality is: That guy built all that muscle mass with those years of heavy training and being "Bobby bloatfish" and only when he dieted down to leaness was he able to see it. But like all the others he forgets how and where he actually built his muscle mass.

If I had a nickel for every bodybuilder ive seen do the above I could retire right now.....including some guys on this very board who forgot how they got really big in the first place.

Craig Titus was a perfect example of someone who did this although he never allowed himself to get terribly bloated due to all the antiestrogens he would use year round.......Guy trained heavy as hell in his early years and even had full pecs at one time....but then tears his pec on the flat barbell bench press with 500 pounds on there.

Had a great physique---take a look at his chest---sure didnt look like that later on.

young titus http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m_aXmVra6d8

He then goes over to this "blood volume training" and all you heard from him was "best gains ever"...etc etc etc...and what is was truly was he already had the muscle mass built beforehand....he never got much bigger over the next decade.....and then after many years of him training lighter and lighter he started losing his density and thickness especially in the pecs and in his front quad shots (picture below) ....and just started to look tired
 

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I can see this thread growing and growing and growing like Ronnie Coleman did when he was on his Mr.O run...LOL !!!!:D


Some great post Dante ... Nice to see you around ...
 
you are correct but i don't think volume training taxes the CNS like heavy slag iron does.

Yeah, and the DOMS doesnt last nearly as long as it does with the heavy training.
 
When i saw the thread where Alex A explained haow he was fat and trained very heavy and now he is lean and is a lot better I asked myself: Maybe the result wouldn´t be as good as it is if he didn´t gained a lot of weight while lifting hiper heavy
 
When i saw the thread where Alex A explained haow he was fat and trained very heavy and now he is lean and is a lot better I asked myself: Maybe the result wouldn´t be as good as it is if he didn´t gained a lot of weight while lifting hiper heavy

I wasnt thinking of Alex at all in that situation....it was more of a generalization of what Ive seen alot of people do over the years.
 
That was some absolutely great material dante and I am rather hard to convince.

What would you advise (or how have you dealth with a possible similar situation) when someone is unable to do three or even two different exercises per bodypart, yet still wants to do dc training?

Let's take me in my current situation, I have several bulging discs, one ruptured disc so I'll be in for at least one discectomy or probably one or more fusions. Long story short I can not do any type of squat, my gym has no hack squat so that basically only leaves leg presses.

Would you let me do only leg presses and cruise earlier because I will plateau earlier or?
 

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