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High volume vs low volume

I would do 3 leg press days

one day would be 8-15 reps

the other day would be 20 reps day

and the third day would be 25-30 rep day

and a war with the logbook on every one of those days

You got to do what you can work with and thats personally how i would do it if I was in your situation with the disk problems
 
Last edited:
I should probably clarify specifically how i would do that in detail.

on 8-15 rep day i would do progressively warmup at 15 reps a set every set until you get to your absolute heaviest 15 reps and then i would do another set even heavier with the lowest rep you can do being 8.

and the same on 20 rep day....progressively up to your heaviest 20 reps and then another set where the lowest rep you do is 15-16 reps

on the 25-30 rep day---all the way up with 30's and then an even slightly heavier rep set for 25 reps.

I know you are advanced Moen but you wouldnt need to do "widowmakers" that way and it would be pretty brutal leg training

Hypothetically lets say it 20 rep day

Each side
90x20
180x20
270x20
360 x 20 reps (brutal all out war set)
405 x 15 reps (brutal all out war set)

next week its time to go for
370-375 x 20
and
415-420 x 15

and spit on the logbook for good measure because you hate its guts

on a day you go in and you just dont feel like you have it in you that day to beat what you did last time.......that means its 50 rep leg press day and you do a couple warmup sets for 20 reps progressive and then you do an all out assault on 50 reps with a weight your a little unsure of making it with and you show the leg press who is boss......and then you stretch your quads and get out of there and come back to regular leg training next time.

Thats how i would do things if i was in your shoes.
 
Last edited:
Wow lots of info:D Thanks a lot!
 
MY huge problem with that article and anyone who argues against heavy training is they think its about a certain rep range......HUH? Who made the law that heavy = anything below 6 reps?

Heavy can be as heavy as you can use for 8 reps, 10 reps, 12 reps, 15 reps, 20 reps.

I cannot stand the guys who need to put things in these neat little boxes in bodybuilding, heavy has to go here, HIT has to go here, volume has to go over there, etc etc etc.

My guys train heavy as a MF and you would probably be hard pressed to find many seriously advanced guys that go to failure anywhere before their 8th rep on the first rest pause.

Ive seen this repeatedly over the years where various people on the boards associate heavy with doing 2-3 reps......where did you get that idea? Thats your own idea of it.....and in my opinion its wrong!

If you are doing 405 for 20 in a deep squat.....thats downright heavy......if you are doing a 365 reverse grip bench press for 20 reps rest paused (12+5+3) thats downright heavy.....but alot less dangerous than some guy doing 375pounds in this forum for 7 reps to failure on the reverse bench press who thinks he is doing moderate reps.

I never have understood why people get so confused on what makes a person larger muscularly. Do you really think if Ronnie Coleman in his 4th week of lifting thought "hey this is pretty comfortable I think Ill stay with 185 benches, 225 squats and 185 deadlifts the rest of my career" that you would see this below in the black and white picture? If weight doesnt matter at all....then why the heck take a chance....take the EZ chair recliner route and lift comfortably.

Three bodybuilders with similiar genetics and roughly the same height....Flex Wheeler, Chris Cormier, Ronnie Coleman. And I would venture to say that Flex had the best bodybuilder genetics out of those three. Now what were they known for.
Flex = comfortable training and competed at 218 to 228 onstage with 236 I believe his highest ever

Chris Cormier = Heavy training with bigtime weights and even with a beginning silhouette like Wheelers he was able to compete at 240 to 258 onstage with 262 I believe being his highest. So he got onstage roughly 25-30 pounds more muscle mass past Flex Wheeler.

Ronnie Coleman = forkift training....strongest bodybuilder in the world, used training poundages that were ridiculous....competed at 302 pounds at the Russian Grand Prix and won Olympias at 296 and 287 pounds respectively.........you make the call.

I see guys on other threads saying various things about random bodybuilders "oh they should of trained like Shawn Ray or Flex Wheeler and gotten the classical physique".....what?!?! Please post your pic so i can see what that classical physique training is all about and we can as a forum make the decision that you now have a carbon copy physique of Flex or Shawn Ray.

Do you really think Markus, Nasser, Dorian, and others could possible change their genetics and create a wasp waist ala doing Flex/Shawn's training? Please.....

Mike Mattarrazzo and Mike Francoise are 2 prime examples of people who knew they didnt have the god given shape of Flex Wheeler and decided to go at him like a sledgehammer. Both those guys got so big that they made the judges decide to give them the call over Flex. Mattarrazzo at the USA's and Francoise later on at the Arnold Classic. Nothing they could of done training wise would of ever made them ever have the physique of Flex Wheeler so Francoise rack deadlifted and powerbuilt his way to a massive contest winning physique.

400 pro bodybuilders out there using the same drugs and all with god given genetics and who are the continual ones that rise to the creme of the crop in thickness? Power bodybuilders......Johnny Jackson, Branch Warren, the aforementioned Francoise, Coleman, Cormier, Ruhl, Yates, Dennis James. etc etc etc etc

Then you get the lone knight in the dark yelling the Paul Dillett and Vince Taylor card.......great lets hope you had the same mom and pop as Paul and Vince then because millions of people across America are taking the "comfortable training" route and they sure dont look like Paul or Vince.

I dont get why this is so hard......forever increase intensity? Ok today your going to do super sets....tommorow you need to beat that intensity to get better....what are you going to do four years from now? Giant sets that are rest paused, staggered and then drop setted and then forced reps and then partials followed by static holds followed by negative only reps? Youll be a psychotic mess trying to forever beat your last intensity session.

Increase the weight and beat what you did yesterday and you took care of the problem.

Its pretty darn easy to be honest with you this whole hypertrophy thing. If today in your first workout you can do (after warmups)

incline presses 135 x 12
military presses 95 x 12
reverse grip bench presses 95 x 12
barbell curls 55 x 12
reverse curls 20 x 12
pulldowns 110 x 12
deadlifts 135 x 12
squats 135 x 12
leg curls 90 x 12
standing calves 90 x 12

and you train for the next 5 years using intensity techniques and semi comfortable training and you see that your doing

incline presses 155 x 12
military presses 115 x 12
reverse grip bench presses 120 x 12
barbell curls 70 x 12
reverse curls 30 x 12
pulldowns 140 x 12
deadlifts 185 x 12
squats 185 x 12
leg curls 115 x 12
standing calves 110 x 12

You sure as hell aint going to be that big.

But if you went down a path of progressive strength training switching out exercises at plateaus and plotted out a gameplan of pushing yourself along with the proper eating and 5-6years later found yourself doing

incline presses 365 x 12
military presses 275 x 12
reverse grip bench presses 365 x 12
barbell curls 225 x 12
reverse curls 90 x 12
pulldowns 350 x 12
deadlifts 500 x 12
squats 500 x 12
leg curls 225 x 12
standing calves 450 x 12

You are going to be a big MF.

Almost seems to easy doesnt it to the chronic OCD overanalyzers that make up the majority of the bodybuilding world

I hate to be a dickhead and use one of my guys .......but for example im going to. Dusty Hanshaw ....heck when i first joined this board around 2004 or so, nobody ever heard of him. Do you know why? Because he was a ex hockey player just kind of getting into the swing of this bodybuilding thing and he was smaller than the majority of the guys on this board right now.
That guy has never used GH, has never used insulin, and a huge amount of ego's on this board would be red faced and embarrassed if they ever compared what they themselves do ergo wise to him.
What separated him from the pack to where he is one of the biggest of the big on these boards and his name is being mentioned now nationally?

He ate his way up progressively, and trained his way up progressively to become the big dog on the block and flew right by thousands of bodybuilders on these boards in doing so where he now shakes floorboards at nearly 300 offseason and walks onstage at 242-255 at 5'11"

http://www.chadnicholls.net/forums/showthread.php?t=56653

It pains me to see the same guys on these boards year after year jumping around like a chicken with your head cut off when "how to get it fucking done and getting it fucking done" is right there in front of you.....yet it is a continual clusterfuck of mindgames of "is there a secret? Is that guy using a secret compound? He must be doing something secretive that I dont know about, he must be abusing himself because he used to be smaller than me and now he is 2x my size"

No he just stopped overanalyzing everything and got down to brass tacks. This endeavor is about beating today what you did yesterday and beating tommorow what you did today and being 2x better than you were last year at this time.....and if more people developed a gameplan about where you need to be next year on April 6th compared to where you were this year on April 6th......they would be alot more successful. But bodybuilders with the mentality they have dont think in that concept and think of todays workout only. You can mindmuscle connection 35 pound dumbells for 11 reps all you want till the cows come home....but ill give you some factual reality.......if in 10 years you are still mindmuscle connection repping 35 pound dumbells for 11 reps make sure you also make the connection of the tape measure around that bicep because its going to have the same reading it did a decade ago.

Thats my rant for the day......I cant get rid of this cough and im bitchy.


Great rant DC...I love the information you post up! Motivating us all to be real with ourselves and with our training! Progression is the name of the game!
 
Last edited:
I used to train really heavy and clean. Used to compete in powerlifting in the early 80's (yup I'm old, 47 yikes).
At 165 I was doing 525 X 2 deep squats with suit and wraps. 90's competed drug free bodybuilding and won numerous shows.
Currently I train reps of 10, 30 second rest, numerous sets, about 30 sets per bp, and keep weight do-able. When I start going heavy my elbows, knees and back kill me. I am very prone to tendonitis.
I have had 6 knee sugeries for patella tendonitis. have had elbow, and a disk injury to my neck.
I love going heavy but my body screams at me whether I am taking supplements or not.
Damn old age (LOL)

YOU LOOK INCREDIBLE! My trainer has me on interval training right now and I love it. I'm not going into it to be huge though, just cut up.
 
YOU LOOK INCREDIBLE! My trainer has me on interval training right now and I love it. I'm not going into it to be huge though, just cut up.
the more muscle you have the more calories you burn bro ;)
 
the more muscle you have the more calories you burn bro ;)

Tell me about it. Since my heart attack ive probably lost about 25-30 lbs of muscle. I still train about 5 days per week at about an hour and a half including cardio and my metabolism is absolutely gone. I used to be eating about 4000 cal/day and growing muscle at under 10% bodyfat at 235 lbsbodyweight. Now I am a very soft 225 lbs and eating around 2000 cals and getting fatter! Having lots of lean tissue is where its at. I used to be able to eat crappy 3-4 meals a week and still stay lean. Now I feel like when I do that I pay for it.

I also think the amount of work you perform determines how many calories you burn. Since Im using weights that are almost 1/2 what I used to use, I am performing less work when I am lifting. Remember work= force x distance. The amount of force I have to apply to lift these weights is about half what it was and Im not doing 2x the number of reps I used to.
 
Last edited:
I would do 3 leg press days

one day would be 8-15 reps

the other day would be 20 reps day

and the third day would be 25-30 rep day

and a war with the logbook on every one of those days

You got to do what you can work with and thats personally how i would do it if I was in your situation with the disk problems

I should probably clarify specifically how i would do that in detail.

on 8-15 rep day i would do progressively warmup at 15 reps a set every set until you get to your absolute heaviest 15 reps and then i would do another set even heavier with the lowest rep you can do being 8.

and the same on 20 rep day....progressively up to your heaviest 20 reps and then another set where the lowest rep you do is 15-16 reps

on the 25-30 rep day---all the way up with 30's and then an even slightly heavier rep set for 25 reps.

I know you are advanced Moen but you wouldnt need to do "widowmakers" that way and it would be pretty brutal leg training

Hypothetically lets say it 20 rep day

Each side
90x20
180x20
270x20
360 x 20 reps (brutal all out war set)
405 x 15 reps (brutal all out war set)

next week its time to go for
370-375 x 20
and
415-420 x 15

and spit on the logbook for good measure because you hate its guts

on a day you go in and you just dont feel like you have it in you that day to beat what you did last time.......that means its 50 rep leg press day and you do a couple warmup sets for 20 reps progressive and then you do an all out assault on 50 reps with a weight your a little unsure of making it with and you show the leg press who is boss......and then you stretch your quads and get out of there and come back to regular leg training next time.

Thats how i would do things if i was in your shoes.

Damnit, Dante, that is some fucking great info.
 
Some people seem to respond well to any kind of training. Some take a long time to figure out what works best for them. Whatever catagorie you fall into, just keep training.
 
Well,
This subject has been hotly debated since the boards began. My take is simply this: ANY system that incorporates progression and works the muscle will work to SOME degree the question then is what is the most EFFICIENT!way to build muscle and for that I say that a lower volume high intensity approach is far superior. To me high volume is like jabbing your oponent in an attempt to "knock" him out while low volume higher intensity is the knockout punch.
I must say that I have a strong personal bias towards the DC method of training because I feel it incorportes all the key components of size and strength development in an intelligent manner, Think of it,..... one thing is for sure, I am damn stronger than I was when I started and consequently damn bigger than when I started ,I also eat more protein than when I started, So how do I continue the process?? I continue getting stronger continue to eat more (within reason) and I thereby continue to get bigger
 
MY huge problem with that article and anyone who argues against heavy training is they think its about a certain rep range......HUH? Who made the law that heavy = anything below 6 reps?

Heavy can be as heavy as you can use for 8 reps, 10 reps, 12 reps, 15 reps, 20 reps.

I cannot stand the guys who need to put things in these neat little boxes in bodybuilding, heavy has to go here, HIT has to go here, volume has to go over there, etc etc etc.

My guys train heavy as a MF and you would probably be hard pressed to find many seriously advanced guys that go to failure anywhere before their 8th rep on the first rest pause.

Ive seen this repeatedly over the years where various people on the boards associate heavy with doing 2-3 reps......where did you get that idea? Thats your own idea of it.....and in my opinion its wrong!

If you are doing 405 for 20 in a deep squat.....thats downright heavy......if you are doing a 365 reverse grip bench press for 20 reps rest paused (12+5+3) thats downright heavy.....but alot less dangerous than some guy doing 375pounds in this forum for 7 reps to failure on the reverse bench press who thinks he is doing moderate reps.

I never have understood why people get so confused on what makes a person larger muscularly. Do you really think if Ronnie Coleman in his 4th week of lifting thought "hey this is pretty comfortable I think Ill stay with 185 benches, 225 squats and 185 deadlifts the rest of my career" that you would see this below in the black and white picture? If weight doesnt matter at all....then why the heck take a chance....take the EZ chair recliner route and lift comfortably.

Three bodybuilders with similiar genetics and roughly the same height....Flex Wheeler, Chris Cormier, Ronnie Coleman. And I would venture to say that Flex had the best bodybuilder genetics out of those three. Now what were they known for.
Flex = comfortable training and competed at 218 to 228 onstage with 236 I believe his highest ever

Chris Cormier = Heavy training with bigtime weights and even with a beginning silhouette like Wheelers he was able to compete at 240 to 258 onstage with 262 I believe being his highest. So he got onstage roughly 25-30 pounds more muscle mass past Flex Wheeler.

Ronnie Coleman = forkift training....strongest bodybuilder in the world, used training poundages that were ridiculous....competed at 302 pounds at the Russian Grand Prix and won Olympias at 296 and 287 pounds respectively.........you make the call.

I see guys on other threads saying various things about random bodybuilders "oh they should of trained like Shawn Ray or Flex Wheeler and gotten the classical physique".....what?!?! Please post your pic so i can see what that classical physique training is all about and we can as a forum make the decision that you now have a carbon copy physique of Flex or Shawn Ray.

Do you really think Markus, Nasser, Dorian, and others could possible change their genetics and create a wasp waist ala doing Flex/Shawn's training? Please.....

Mike Mattarrazzo and Mike Francoise are 2 prime examples of people who knew they didnt have the god given shape of Flex Wheeler and decided to go at him like a sledgehammer. Both those guys got so big that they made the judges decide to give them the call over Flex. Mattarrazzo at the USA's and Francoise later on at the Arnold Classic. Nothing they could of done training wise would of ever made them ever have the physique of Flex Wheeler so Francoise rack deadlifted and powerbuilt his way to a massive contest winning physique.

400 pro bodybuilders out there using the same drugs and all with god given genetics and who are the continual ones that rise to the creme of the crop in thickness? Power bodybuilders......Johnny Jackson, Branch Warren, the aforementioned Francoise, Coleman, Cormier, Ruhl, Yates, Dennis James. etc etc etc etc

Then you get the lone knight in the dark yelling the Paul Dillett and Vince Taylor card.......great lets hope you had the same mom and pop as Paul and Vince then because millions of people across America are taking the "comfortable training" route and they sure dont look like Paul or Vince.

I dont get why this is so hard......forever increase intensity? Ok today your going to do super sets....tommorow you need to beat that intensity to get better....what are you going to do four years from now? Giant sets that are rest paused, staggered and then drop setted and then forced reps and then partials followed by static holds followed by negative only reps? Youll be a psychotic mess trying to forever beat your last intensity session.

Increase the weight and beat what you did yesterday and you took care of the problem.

Its pretty darn easy to be honest with you this whole hypertrophy thing. If today in your first workout you can do (after warmups)

incline presses 135 x 12
military presses 95 x 12
reverse grip bench presses 95 x 12
barbell curls 55 x 12
reverse curls 20 x 12
pulldowns 110 x 12
deadlifts 135 x 12
squats 135 x 12
leg curls 90 x 12
standing calves 90 x 12

and you train for the next 5 years using intensity techniques and semi comfortable training and you see that your doing

incline presses 155 x 12
military presses 115 x 12
reverse grip bench presses 120 x 12
barbell curls 70 x 12
reverse curls 30 x 12
pulldowns 140 x 12
deadlifts 185 x 12
squats 185 x 12
leg curls 115 x 12
standing calves 110 x 12

You sure as hell aint going to be that big.

But if you went down a path of progressive strength training switching out exercises at plateaus and plotted out a gameplan of pushing yourself along with the proper eating and 5-6years later found yourself doing

incline presses 365 x 12
military presses 275 x 12
reverse grip bench presses 365 x 12
barbell curls 225 x 12
reverse curls 90 x 12
pulldowns 350 x 12
deadlifts 500 x 12
squats 500 x 12
leg curls 225 x 12
standing calves 450 x 12

You are going to be a big MF.

Almost seems to easy doesnt it to the chronic OCD overanalyzers that make up the majority of the bodybuilding world

I hate to be a dickhead and use one of my guys .......but for example im going to. Dusty Hanshaw ....heck when i first joined this board around 2004 or so, nobody ever heard of him. Do you know why? Because he was a ex hockey player just kind of getting into the swing of this bodybuilding thing and he was smaller than the majority of the guys on this board right now.
That guy has never used GH, has never used insulin, and a huge amount of ego's on this board would be red faced and embarrassed if they ever compared what they themselves do ergo wise to him.
What separated him from the pack to where he is one of the biggest of the big on these boards and his name is being mentioned now nationally?

He ate his way up progressively, and trained his way up progressively to become the big dog on the block and flew right by thousands of bodybuilders on these boards in doing so where he now shakes floorboards at nearly 300 offseason and walks onstage at 242-255 at 5'11"

PROJECT SUPERHEAVYWEIGHT: Starring Dusty Hanshaw, a nonbendable squatbar+raw power - Muscle Mayhem Bodybuilding Forums

It pains me to see the same guys on these boards year after year jumping around like a chicken with your head cut off when "how to get it fucking done and getting it fucking done" is right there in front of you.....yet it is a continual clusterfuck of mindgames of "is there a secret? Is that guy using a secret compound? He must be doing something secretive that I dont know about, he must be abusing himself because he used to be smaller than me and now he is 2x my size"

No he just stopped overanalyzing everything and got down to brass tacks. This endeavor is about beating today what you did yesterday and beating tommorow what you did today and being 2x better than you were last year at this time.....and if more people developed a gameplan about where you need to be next year on April 6th compared to where you were this year on April 6th......they would be alot more successful. But bodybuilders with the mentality they have dont think in that concept and think of todays workout only. You can mindmuscle connection 35 pound dumbells for 11 reps all you want till the cows come home....but ill give you some factual reality.......if in 10 years you are still mindmuscle connection repping 35 pound dumbells for 11 reps make sure you also make the connection of the tape measure around that bicep because its going to have the same reading it did a decade ago.

Thats my rant for the day......I cant get rid of this cough and im bitchy.

I know I read this post over year ago and just read it again. This has to be one of the best posts ever written and I just saved it on my computer. Might even hand it out to some clients...

Thanks, Dante!
 
the big difference is the tonnage.
if you bench 250 pounds 10 reps and 4 sets =10'000 pounds

or 350 pounds 6 reps and 2 sets = 4200 pounds

i don't know if week after weeks, months after months this overload can help you to better gain...?
 
the big difference is the tonnage.
if you bench 250 pounds 10 reps and 4 sets =10'000 pounds

or 350 pounds 6 reps and 2 sets = 4200 pounds

i don't know if week after weeks, months after months this overload can help you to better gain...?

If you're not upping the weight progressively, which is the key, than what's the point? If month after month you are still doing 250x10x4, why keep going to the gym, it becomes monotonous.

There are guys in my gym who lift the same poundage every week, they have gained zero size. My first run through DC, progressive weight increase, flew by them in size. If guys keep doing the same weights week after week, month after month, how will they grow? How can something change if nothing changes?
 
I'm afraid you completely misunderstood his question there richie, he mentioned total tonnage being higher than it is with low volume training. He said nothing about not going up in poundage per set.
 
Spot on

You can only pound yourself to death with heavy weights for so long. Plus, it's fun and mentally refreshing to change things once in a while. There is more than one way to get things done. I am no expert, but I have seen some big people who don't train with what I consider "heavy" weights.

I have no axe to grind and don't want to piss anyone off. :D


"You can only pound yourself to death with heavy weights for so long. Plus, it's fun and mentally refreshing to change things once in a while. There is more than one way to get things done. I am no expert, but I have seen some big people who don't train with what I consider "heavy" weights."...Agreed
 
Yea find what works for your body. before i got some injurys i did better with heavy wgts and high reps when went heavy with low reps lost size big time.
 

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