Highly Branched Cyclic Dextrin - no insulin spike?

[NY Muscle]

I recently bought some Glycofuse, usually post workout I use Karbolyn or when I run out of it I use my back up powder which is AST's product DGC (Dextrorotatory Glucose Crystals).

From what I have read online HBCD's have very little effect on insulin levels. I am also on a CKD diet and today is the carb up post workout this afternoon. To me it sounds like HBCD's are really only useful pre or intra workout (on a normal non CKD diet) since it doesn't spike insulin much. I really want to take advantage of a product that spikes insulin since my carb up only lasts about 30 hours every 7 days so I am not sure HBCD's are what I want on a CKD diet.

I am sure one could argue HBCD's would be good to just add to whey protein towards the end of the carb up before I start eating fat/protein and no carbs again.

Any ideas on this would be appreciated.

 

[homonunculus]

I recently bought some Glycofuse, usually post workout I use Karbolyn or when I run out of it I use my back up powder which is AST's product DGC (Dextrorotatory Glucose Crystals).

From what I have read online HBCD's have very little effect on insulin levels. I am also on a CKD diet and today is the carb up post workout this afternoon. To me it sounds like HBCD's are really only useful pre or intra workout (on a normal non CKD diet) since it doesn't spike insulin much. I really want to take advantage of a product that spikes insulin since my carb up only lasts about 30 hours every 7 days so I am not sure HBCD's are what I want on a CKD diet.

I am sure one could argue HBCD's would be good to just add to whey protein towards the end of the carb up before I start eating fat/protein and no carbs again.

Any ideas on this would be appreciated.

Where did you read that?...

-S

 

[vegasmuscle]

Hopefully John Meadows will chime in, He is a huge advocate and easily the most knowledgable on HBCD for pre and Intra carb usage.

 

[NY Muscle]

Where did you read that?...

-S

Various mentions allover the internet but more specific:

Cyclic Dextrin does not cause a sharp insulin spike after being consumed (Takii et al, 1999).

- STUDY


"The rise in mean blood glucose level in the mice administered with HBCD, which was measured 20 min after starting swimming, was significantly lower (p<0.05) than that in the mice administered with glucose, although it was significantly higher (p<0.05) than that in the mice administered with water. The mean blood insulin rise in the mice given HBCD was significantly lower (p<0.05) than that in the mice given glucose. The mice administered with HBCD 30 min after starting the exercise swam significantly longer (p<0.05) than the mice who had ingested water, although the enhancement of swimming time was similar to that of the glucose-ingesting mice. The gastric emptying rate of the HBCD solution was significantly faster (p<0.05) than that of the glucose solution. However, this glucose polymer must have spent more time being absorbed because it has to be hydrolyzed before absorption, reflecting a lower and possibly longer-lasting blood glucose level. We conclude that the prolongation of swimming endurance in mice administered with HBCD depended on its rapid and longer-lasting ability for supplying glucose with a lower postprandial blood insulin response, leading to a delayed onset of fatigue.




I don't know of any human studies to go by nor do I know if all the claims of HBCD's were even from human studies or just mice etc.

 

[homonunculus]

Various mentions allover the internet but more specific:

Cyclic Dextrin does not cause a sharp insulin spike after being consumed (Takii et al, 1999).

- STUDY


"The rise in mean blood glucose level in the mice administered with HBCD, which was measured 20 min after starting swimming, was significantly lower (p<0.05) than that in the mice administered with glucose, although it was significantly higher (p<0.05) than that in the mice administered with water. The mean blood insulin rise in the mice given HBCD was significantly lower (p<0.05) than that in the mice given glucose. The mice administered with HBCD 30 min after starting the exercise swam significantly longer (p<0.05) than the mice who had ingested water, although the enhancement of swimming time was similar to that of the glucose-ingesting mice. The gastric emptying rate of the HBCD solution was significantly faster (p<0.05) than that of the glucose solution. However, this glucose polymer must have spent more time being absorbed because it has to be hydrolyzed before absorption, reflecting a lower and possibly longer-lasting blood glucose level. We conclude that the prolongation of swimming endurance in mice administered with HBCD depended on its rapid and longer-lasting ability for supplying glucose with a lower postprandial blood insulin response, leading to a delayed onset of fatigue.




I don't know of any human studies to go by nor do I know if all the claims of HBCD's were even from human studies or just mice etc.

Thanks for that NY Muscle.

Here's what I wrote on this topic just a couple days ago on Facebook (referring to the same study):

"Also, in a mouse study, HBCD's produced a lower glycemic response and thus a lower insulin response (1. Takii H, Ishihara K, Kometani T, Okada S, and Fushiki T. Enhancement of swimming endurance in mice by highly branched cyclic dextrin. Bioscience, biotechnology, and biochemistry 63: 2045-2052, 1999. )

However, in a study of *humans* (doing cycling exercise), both glucose and HBCD's produced the same glycemic response (Figure 5 in Takii H, Ishihara K, Kometani T, Okada S, and Fushiki T. Enhancement of swimming endurance in mice by highly branched cyclic dextrin. Bioscience, biotechnology, and biochemistry 63: 2045-2052, 1999. )

Of course, GI and insulin index can be off-set, but I've not seen any data in humans where insulin was measured after consuming HBCD's. (I've not looked for a few months now.) Do you have some personal data or a study showing that HBCD's have a low insulin index?"

(That last question is for anyone reading, but it was addressed to someone on FB initially.)

-S

 

[NY Muscle]

Thanks for that NY Muscle.

Here's what I wrote on this topic just a couple days ago on Facebook (referring to the same study):

"Also, in a mouse study, HBCD's produced a lower glycemic response and thus a lower insulin response (1. Takii H, Ishihara K, Kometani T, Okada S, and Fushiki T. Enhancement of swimming endurance in mice by highly branched cyclic dextrin. Bioscience, biotechnology, and biochemistry 63: 2045-2052, 1999. )

However, in a study of *humans* (doing cycling exercise), both glucose and HBCD's produced the same glycemic response (Figure 5 in Takii H, Ishihara K, Kometani T, Okada S, and Fushiki T. Enhancement of swimming endurance in mice by highly branched cyclic dextrin. Bioscience, biotechnology, and biochemistry 63: 2045-2052, 1999. )

Of course, GI and insulin index can be off-set, but I've not seen any data in humans where insulin was measured after consuming HBCD's. (I've not looked for a few months now.) Do you have some personal data or a study showing that HBCD's have a low insulin index?"

(That last question is for anyone reading, but it was addressed to someone on FB initially.)

-S

Thanks for that info.

I think for most people HBCD's are probably fine and for pre-workout it seems perfect. I just hate to use it for the wrong application (post workout) and could be getting a better carb up by using something else.

I would have to go find my glucometer (probably under tons of boxes) to play around and see what happens post HBCD's consumption. But I always add whey to my post w/o shake so that will not give an ideal reading so it would just have to be HBCD's alone.

Being that my blood glucose is probably so damn low being in ketosis I am probably not the best candidate for testing or at least until I am back on a normal diet after summer of course

 

[Knight9]

Could the key word be SPIKE? Perhaps HBCD provide more of a steady rise and fall instead of what we are used to?

 

[Cerberus777]

From what I've experienced. It is similar to sugar or higher sugar juice. Vs karbolyn seems to have a very low response.

If you want a big spike maybe add enough dextrose that wont cause GI upset. And the rest HBCD since it digest so well.

 

[homonunculus]

Thanks for that info.

I think for most people HBCD's are probably fine and for pre-workout it seems perfect. I just hate to use it for the wrong application (post workout) and could be getting a better carb up by using something else.

I would have to go find my glucometer (probably under tons of boxes) to play around and see what happens post HBCD's consumption. But I always add whey to my post w/o shake so that will not give an ideal reading so it would just have to be HBCD's alone.

Being that my blood glucose is probably so damn low being in ketosis I am probably not the best candidate for testing or at least until I am back on a normal diet after summer of course

IMO, what's relevant is the GI and insulin index as one actually uses the carb source (in combo with a protein or what have you).

Could the key word be SPIKE? Perhaps HBCD provide more of a steady rise and fall instead of what we are used to?

From what I've experienced. It is similar to sugar or higher sugar juice. Vs karbolyn seems to have a very low response.

If you want a big spike maybe add enough dextrose that wont cause GI upset. And the rest HBCD since it digest so well.

1. Takii H, Kometani T, Nishimura T, Kuriki T, and Fushiki T. A Sports Drink Based on Highly Branched Cyclic Dextrin Generates Few Gastrointestinal Disorders in Untrained Men during Bicycle Exercise. Food Science and Technology Research 10: 428-431, 2004.

See attached figure 5.

-S

 

[KillerStack]

This is supposed to be a quick carb right? Someone explain to me how any extremely quick carb would not spike insulin?

I remember troponin trying to explain to me how waxy maize didn't spike insulin despite being fast but I never understood his explanation.

 

[Cerberus777]

IMO, what's relevant is the GI and insulin index as one actually uses the carb source (in combo with a protein or what have you).





1. Takii H, Kometani T, Nishimura T, Kuriki T, and Fushiki T. A Sports Drink Based on Highly Branched Cyclic Dextrin Generates Few Gastrointestinal Disorders in Untrained Men during Bicycle Exercise. Food Science and Technology Research 10: 428-431, 2004.

See attached figure 5.

-S

HBCD is very easy on the GI, Dextrose not so much, I may not be clear, but that is why i sugested mixing if you need a big spike.

 

[hardcoremt]

I see the words "Highly Branched Cyclic Dextrin" and i get a Boner Love that expensive crazy powder

 

[homonunculus]

This is supposed to be a quick carb right? Someone explain to me how any extremely quick carb would not spike insulin?

I remember troponin trying to explain to me how waxy maize didn't spike insulin despite being fast but I never understood his explanation.

Waxy maize (there are / can be many grades) tends to be a low glycemic index carb, believe it or not.

1. Roberts MD, Lockwood C, Dalbo VJ, Volek J, and Kerksick CM. Ingestion of a high-molecular-weight hydrothermally modified waxy maize starch alters metabolic responses to prolonged exercise in trained cyclists. Nutrition 27: 659-665, 2011.
2. Sands AL, Leidy HJ, Hamaker BR, Maguire P, and Campbell WW. Consumption of the slow-digesting waxy maize starch leads to blunted plasma glucose and insulin response but does not influence energy expenditure or appetite in humans. Nutr Res 29: 383-390, 2009.

I think sometime b/c waxy doesn't cause GI bloating or distress for some, that they had assumed it empties quickly from the stomach. (We over at IM did some GI measurements on a waxy and it basically didn't change glucose much if at all - like a <20% increase on average.)


OTOH, you can have a cephalic phase (anticipatory) insulin release which will tend to INCREASE insulin response to a food that you like (smell, taste, texture, etc.), but I've not see where a normally high GI carb would produce a blunted insulin release if it's something you drink that doesn'tt taste good. I would imagine that could be possible, though if the food is so nasty that it causes a sympathetic response (which would inhibit beta-cell insulin release).

(Cephalic phase response info: **broken link removed** )

-S

 

[KillerStack]

Waxy maize (there are / can be many grades) tends to be a low glycemic index carb, believe it or not.

Yes, though it was sold on the back of the Vitargo research. Or at least the bros here and elsewhere were thinking it was a cheaper Vitargo-like carb, high GI, fast absorbing yet with low insulin response. Which never made sense to me of course.
Now apparently this HBCD is sold on the same premise.

 

[Knight9]

Yes, though it was sold on the back of the Vitargo research. Or at least the bros here and elsewhere were thinking it was a cheaper Vitargo-like carb, high GI, fast absorbing yet with low insulin response. Which never made sense to me of course.
Now apparently this HBCD is sold on the same premise.

Whatever is going on, waxy was garbage and HBCD(glycofuse) works amazingly well.

Sent from my SM-N900V using Tapatalk

 

[pasamoto]

Knight what ratio are you using pp/hbcd ? So far 10g pp and 25-35 g glycofuse is working well for me

 

[Knight9]

Knight what ratio are you using pp/hbcd ? So far 10g pp and 25-35 g glycofuse is working well for me

I use 30-40g Peptopro and 75-100g Glycofuse on the regular.

I may opt for 30 on an arm day and approach 45 on a back or leg day...
Same with carbs...I'll do 50-75 on arm days and 75-100 other days.

I have used 125-150 of Glycofuse with no problems but it is not in the cards for my current goals and that amount may be better served with a exogenous "shuttler".

If you are going to do a ratio, it seems to make sense in product formulations that a little less than 1:3 is popular. I based my initial experimentation on John Meadows suggestions and starting low and increasing til you aren't sore anymore...as well as Plazma's ratio which is 15g Hydrolyzed Casein: 38g Carbs.(25 of which are HBCD)