HIIT vs LISS for Heart Health

[Kaladryn]

Don't care about fat loss at all, strictly speaking for heart health and overall health benefits, have any studies shown one to better than the other? Or from just your anecdotal evidence?

I'm talking 60 minutes of very brisk walking 3x a week vs 3 20 minute HIIT sessions (I can only handle about 10 minutes right now, 10-15 seconds full-out sprinting, 45 seconds of rest). This isn't sport-specific, I just never focused on cardio like a typical meathead for the last 15+ years and now that I'm in my mid-thirties, I want to be able to go for a hike and try stuff like rock-climbing etc. without getting all winded, and just all around be healthier.

If you want to learn about HIIT training, you have to look outside of bodybuilding to sports like track, swimming, and cycling.

The main problem with HIIT training is that it very taxing to recover from.

The best part about being a bodybuilder is that you do HIIT training every day in the gym when you train.

Your heart needs two things, HIIT train and LISS training(Or perhaps optimally, moderate intensity steady state). If you ONLY give it HIIT training, you will suffer from a lack of blood volume and overly high hematocrit, you will also not lower your blood pressure adequately. As one semi-famous cardiologist (he did the physical fitness exams for the secret service) once told me: "Between intervals, the heart is in 'free fall' and isn't contracting hard, that is why you need steady state to lower blood pressure, lowering blood pressure is about more than your heart, it is about your whole cardiovascular system." I'm paraphrasing but that is about exactly what he said. I've spoken to many other doctors, one in particular who had a deep understanding of the heart and blood pressure (an anesthesiologist) who agreed.

Anyhow, all I need is a lot of personal experience and a blood pressure cuff, I can tell that 20min per day of steady-state works better than anything else I do to keep my blood pressure down with the absolute minimal inroads into my recovery.

Would my heart be in even better shape if I did additional HIIT cardio? I'm sure it would, HIIT cardio is extremely beneficial up to about 1 hour per day, however, I hate cardio and I have no interested in limiting my ability to recover (and thus limit muscle gained) for that tinny bit of extra cardio function.

If you understand what HIIT training is (Anaerobic threshold training with the name ripped off from HIT training), then you know that we all have very high anaerobic thresholds from weight training, HIIT training isn't what most bodybuilders need the most, in fact it can be counterproductive in a growth or maintaince phase.

edit: most people I see in the gym do not train hard enough to be any form of anaerobic threshold training, but I do, and a handful of others do. I would assume most people here do but I might be wrong.

 

[nothuman]

Another simple option is to run 5-10 minutes 5 days a week at a relatively faster pace.

http://ergo-log.com/running-just-5-to-10-minutes-a-day-will-lengthen-your-life.html

I have actually been doing this more lately. 8-10 minutes at an 8.0mph speed nearly every day. Done a bit less intervals but occasionally might just do like 1-2 if I feel like it. It's really imperative to find the right amount that isn't too much. HIIT can be really taxing if it's done to excess

 

[gungalunga]

Nothing wrong with liking it and it’s certainly better than nothing. To be clear, I was talking about LISS, not medium intensity

I understand what you are saying. I see people using cardio equipment every day that put very little effort into working out, and get very little benefit from it. I think many of them go to the gym just so they can tell people they workout, even though most of them are carrying alot of bodyfat, and their cardio capacity is low.

 

[nothuman]

I understand what you are saying. I see people using cardio equipment every day that put very little effort into working out, and get very little benefit from it. I think many of them go to the gym just so they can tell people they workout, even though most of them are carrying alot of bodyfat, and their cardio capacity is low.

Yea my post was really directed at who you just described and who also claim that is superior for their health without doing any research.

 

[nothuman]

If you want to learn about HIIT training, you have to look outside of bodybuilding to sports like track, swimming, and cycling.

The main problem with HIIT training is that it very taxing to recover from.

The best part about being a bodybuilder is that you do HIIT training every day in the gym when you train.

Your heart needs two things, HIIT train and LISS training(Or perhaps optimally, moderate intensity steady state). If you ONLY give it HIIT training, you will suffer from a lack of blood volume and overly high hematocrit, you will also not lower your blood pressure adequately. As one semi-famous cardiologist (he did the physical fitness exams for the secret service) once told me: "Between intervals, the heart is in 'free fall' and isn't contracting hard, that is why you need steady state to lower blood pressure, lowering blood pressure is about more than your heart, it is about your whole cardiovascular system." I'm paraphrasing but that is about exactly what he said. I've spoken to many other doctors, one in particular who had a deep understanding of the heart and blood pressure (an anesthesiologist) who agreed.

Anyhow, all I need is a lot of personal experience and a blood pressure cuff, I can tell that 20min per day of steady-state works better than anything else I do to keep my blood pressure down with the absolute minimal inroads into my recovery.

Would my heart be in even better shape if I did additional HIIT cardio? I'm sure it would, HIIT cardio is extremely beneficial up to about 1 hour per day, however, I hate cardio and I have no interested in limiting my ability to recover (and thus limit muscle gained) for that tinny bit of extra cardio function.

If you understand what HIIT training is (Anaerobic threshold training with the name ripped off from HIT training), then you know that we all have very high anaerobic thresholds from weight training, HIIT training isn't what most bodybuilders need the most, in fact it can be counterproductive in a growth or maintaince phase.

edit: most people I see in the gym do not train hard enough to be any form of anaerobic threshold training, but I do, and a handful of others do. I would assume most people here do but I might be wrong.

I've definitely kept you in mind when modifying my own personal cardio. Thanks for sharing what those doctors said.

 

[Creation]

I understand what you are saying. I see people using cardio equipment every day that put very little effort into working out, and get very little benefit from it. I think many of them go to the gym just so they can tell people they workout, even though most of them are carrying alot of bodyfat, and their cardio capacity is low.

I feel like these are typically the people who dont lift heavy weights

If you're lifting heavy weights 3-5 times a week, LISS is very good for recovery. All weight lifters should be doing atleast 1 LISS workout a week IMO

 

[Beti ona]

Nothing wrong with liking it and it’s certainly better than nothing. To be clear, I was talking about LISS, not medium intensity

Actually, no one in the bodybuilding industry doing stupid low intensity cardio, most are looking for a sustainable activity in 40-60 minutes, but they are not doing it as something easy or without rhythm.

 

[FK86]

Call me crazy but I like doing 60 min cardio sessions. The endorphin buzz I get puts me in a good state of mind for the rest of the day.

Same. I like a 3.3 mph pace and varying the incline from 8-13. Depends on my mood. I listen to metal so marching away on the treadmill doesn't bore me at all.

 

[nothuman]

Actually, no one in the bodybuilding industry doing stupid low intensity cardio, most are looking for a sustainable activity in 40-60 minutes, but they are not doing it as something easy or without rhythm.

Eh you’d be surprised. Agree to disagree

 

[maldorf]

https://www.professionalmuscle.com/...ing-heart-health-while-aas-5.html#post2679763

I can vouch for avoiding too much intensity in exercise for people with heart failure and ventricular arrhythmias like me. I have to avoid that kind of stress at all costs now. I could literally trigger ventricular fibrillation by just going down to my treadmill and running all out for a minute or so.

 

[xpoc]

This is purely anecdotal but I have seen it first hand on 4 occasions and all 4 involved close friends of mine.

I had 4 buddies suffer heart attacks between the ages 47-51 and the only thing they had in common was they frequently did HIIT. 3 died, 1 lived.

Here is my belief on this. We are all built with the Fight or Flight internal mechanism for survival. If we are getting chased by a bear we can run like an Olympic sprinter. We have seen little old ladies deadlift a car to save a trapped victim. We have seen amazing feats of strength and endurance when in SURVIVAL MODE.

But, should we willingly put ourselves in survival mode? IMO We should not regularly create an environment where we are literally gasping for air to survive. Those situations should be reserved for (literally) survival...nothing to be toyed with recreationally. Just as you would not max out on your deadlift numerous times per week, you should not max out on your cardio limits numerous times per week.

For another example, consider my Chevy Tahoe. Sure, it can go 110 MPH, but that does not mean I should red line it at 110 all the time. There is a reason a Hyundai lasts for 500k miles whereas a dragster dies after a few hundred.

LISS training including long, moderately brisk walks is the best way to burn extra calories, preserve muscle, strengthen the heart and increase longevity. It might not be the quickest route to get you where you want to be cosmetically, but I believe it is far superior to those heart racing redline HIIT workouts that can (literally) shave years off your life.

NOTE: I HAVE NO SCIENTIFIC EVIDENCE TO BACK THIS UP. But after burying so many friends who were in "great" shape (none using anything more than TRT and 2 using nothing at all), I don't need to read it in a book to know what I have seen with my own eyes.

 

[Smack]

This is purely anecdotal but I have seen it first hand on 4 occasions and all 4 involved close friends of mine.

I had 4 buddies suffer heart attacks between the ages 47-51 and the only thing they had in common was they frequently did HIIT. 3 died, 1 lived.

Here is my belief on this. We are all built with the Fight or Flight internal mechanism for survival. If we are getting chased by a bear we can run like an Olympic sprinter. We have seen little old ladies deadlift a car to save a trapped victim. We have seen amazing feats of strength and endurance when in SURVIVAL MODE.

But, should we willingly put ourselves in survival mode? IMO We should not regularly create an environment where we are literally gasping for air to survive. Those situations should be reserved for (literally) survival...nothing to be toyed with recreationally. Just as you would not max out on your deadlift numerous times per week, you should not max out on your cardio limits numerous times per week.

For another example, consider my Chevy Tahoe. Sure, it can go 110 MPH, but that does not mean I should red line it at 110 all the time. There is a reason a Hyundai lasts for 500k miles whereas a dragster dies after a few hundred.

LISS training including long, moderately brisk walks is the best way to burn extra calories, preserve muscle, strengthen the heart and increase longevity. It might not be the quickest route to get you where you want to be cosmetically, but I believe it is far superior to those heart racing redline HIIT workouts that can (literally) shave years off your life.

NOTE: I HAVE NO SCIENTIFIC EVIDENCE TO BACK THIS UP. But after burying so many friends who were in "great" shape (none using anything more than TRT and 2 using nothing at all), I don't need to read it in a book to know what I have seen with my own eyes.

Were your friends AAS users?

 

[NEMSZ]

Were your friends AAS users?

He said 2 used nothing and 2 were on TRT...

I’m wondering if they had some type of heart disease or high blood pressure or something...

I don’t see how if they really were completely healthy in all sense of the word that HIIT cardio contributed to them dying.... I’m sure there’s more to the story..

 

[jeroendebleser]

This is purely anecdotal but I have seen it first hand on 4 occasions and all 4 involved close friends of mine.

I had 4 buddies suffer heart attacks between the ages 47-51 and the only thing they had in common was they frequently did HIIT. 3 died, 1 lived.

Here is my belief on this. We are all built with the Fight or Flight internal mechanism for survival. If we are getting chased by a bear we can run like an Olympic sprinter. We have seen little old ladies deadlift a car to save a trapped victim. We have seen amazing feats of strength and endurance when in SURVIVAL MODE.

But, should we willingly put ourselves in survival mode? IMO We should not regularly create an environment where we are literally gasping for air to survive. Those situations should be reserved for (literally) survival...nothing to be toyed with recreationally. Just as you would not max out on your deadlift numerous times per week, you should not max out on your cardio limits numerous times per week.

For another example, consider my Chevy Tahoe. Sure, it can go 110 MPH, but that does not mean I should red line it at 110 all the time. There is a reason a Hyundai lasts for 500k miles whereas a dragster dies after a few hundred.

LISS training including long, moderately brisk walks is the best way to burn extra calories, preserve muscle, strengthen the heart and increase longevity. It might not be the quickest route to get you where you want to be cosmetically, but I believe it is far superior to those heart racing redline HIIT workouts that can (literally) shave years off your life.

NOTE: I HAVE NO SCIENTIFIC EVIDENCE TO BACK THIS UP. But after burying so many friends who were in "great" shape (none using anything more than TRT and 2 using nothing at all), I don't need to read it in a book to know what I have seen with my own eyes.

Sure makes sense. We have a world renowned cardiologist here in Belgium, Dr. Pedro Brugada, that once stated the human heart has a genetically built in number of tics it can withstand before giving out. So the more you make it pump, the sooner you'll end up in your grave according to him. Which is also why pro-athletes often die young.

Note: Brugada's words, not mine. So take it up with him

 

[NEMSZ]

Sure makes sense. We have a world renowned cardiologist here in Belgium, Dr. Pedro Brugada, that once stated the human heart has a genetically built in number of tics it can withstand before giving out. So the more you make it pump, the sooner you'll end up in your grave according to him. Which is also why pro-athletes often die young.

Note: Brugada's words, not mine. So take it up with him

That does really make sense, and what pro athletes are dying young other than the endurance athletes that pump ridiculous amounts of EPO?

I’ve heard this as well, but wish he gave more details on that... Cardio and exercise are proven to extend life... I’m pretty sure the people living well into their 90’s don’t have 30bpm heart rates.. You only get that being really athletic...

By that statement we should all be taking benzos and opiates to have constant low heart rates to live as long as possible lol

Seems like there’s so much information out there and one always contradicts the other...

 

[MyNameIsJeff]

Sure makes sense. We have a world renowned cardiologist here in Belgium, Dr. Pedro Brugada, that once stated the human heart has a genetically built in number of tics it can withstand before giving out. So the more you make it pump, the sooner you'll end up in your grave according to him. Which is also why pro-athletes often die young.

Note: Brugada's words, not mine. So take it up with him

What a crock of shit :banghead:

Note: Sam Zell's words, not mine. So take it up with him

[ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2DQLxpmnkyg"]Sam Zell "What A Crock Of " - YouTube[/ame]

 

[xpac2]

Sure makes sense. We have a world renowned cardiologist here in Belgium, Dr. Pedro Brugada, that once stated the human heart has a genetically built in number of tics it can withstand before giving out. So the more you make it pump, the sooner you'll end up in your grave according to him. Which is also why pro-athletes often die young.

Note: Brugada's words, not mine. So take it up with him

Thats as stupid as Donald Trump not wanting to exercise because he thinks the human body is like a battery with Finite energy

 

[MyNameIsJeff]

How do you define "low intensity"?

A typical example would be a bodybuilder sitting on a spinning bike for 60 minutes while checking his phone, at no point being out of breath. Or waddling around on a treadmill at a glacial pace. As I said above, this kind of activity has benefits, especially during contest prep. But w.r.t. heart health it's is greatly inferior to more intensive exercise.

I would consider 60% of your maximum heart rate as the minimum to consider medium intensity exercise. So for a 30 year old bodybuilder that would mean a heart rate of roughly 120. As a rule of thumb you should be out of breath, but still be able maintain a constant pace.

If you want to learn about HIIT training, you have to look outside of bodybuilding to sports like track, swimming, and cycling.

The main problem with HIIT training is that it very taxing to recover from.

The best part about being a bodybuilder is that you do HIIT training every day in the gym when you train.

Your heart needs two things, HIIT train and LISS training(Or perhaps optimally, moderate intensity steady state). If you ONLY give it HIIT training, you will suffer from a lack of blood volume and overly high hematocrit, you will also not lower your blood pressure adequately. As one semi-famous cardiologist (he did the physical fitness exams for the secret service) once told me: "Between intervals, the heart is in 'free fall' and isn't contracting hard, that is why you need steady state to lower blood pressure, lowering blood pressure is about more than your heart, it is about your whole cardiovascular system." I'm paraphrasing but that is about exactly what he said. I've spoken to many other doctors, one in particular who had a deep understanding of the heart and blood pressure (an anesthesiologist) who agreed.

Anyhow, all I need is a lot of personal experience and a blood pressure cuff, I can tell that 20min per day of steady-state works better than anything else I do to keep my blood pressure down with the absolute minimal inroads into my recovery.

Would my heart be in even better shape if I did additional HIIT cardio? I'm sure it would, HIIT cardio is extremely beneficial up to about 1 hour per day, however, I hate cardio and I have no interested in limiting my ability to recover (and thus limit muscle gained) for that tinny bit of extra cardio function.

If you understand what HIIT training is (Anaerobic threshold training with the name ripped off from HIT training), then you know that we all have very high anaerobic thresholds from weight training, HIIT training isn't what most bodybuilders need the most, in fact it can be counterproductive in a growth or maintaince phase.

edit: most people I see in the gym do not train hard enough to be any form of anaerobic threshold training, but I do, and a handful of others do. I would assume most people here do but I might be wrong.

I agree on the point about recovery ability. HIIT is more taxing on the central nervous system. It can also interrupt the repair of damaged muscle from a session of resistance exercise. So probably not a good idea to do it the day after a heavy squats session. That being said, there are ways to integrate it with resistance exercise. Instead of doing things like sprints, which are highly taxing for connective tissues, muscles, and CNS, you can also do HIIT on a crosstrainer: drive up up the resistance while maintaining the pace and you will be able to crank up your heart rate a lot without over-exhausting any particular muscle group. due to the guided movement, CNS involvement is also reduced.

But even then, too frequent HIIT sessions can impair recovery. So an approach like nothuman suggested, where you do HIIT 1-2 twice a week on top of moderate steady state cardio might be ideal.

The rest of your claims I disagree with. Some of it I addressed in the other thread. The rest frankly isn't worth addressing, nonsense without any supporting evidence. We have seen just how unreliable your 'authoritative sources' are in the whole discussion about generic GH, with all those "famous chemists and professors' telling you complete nonsense (or you misunderstanding them completely).

 

[Kaladryn]

A typical example would be a bodybuilder sitting on a spinning bike for 60 minutes while checking his phone, at no point being out of breath. Or waddling around on a treadmill at a glacial pace. As I said above, this kind of activity has benefits, especially during contest prep. But w.r.t. heart health it's is greatly inferior to more intensive exercise.

I would consider 60% of your maximum heart rate as the minimum to consider medium intensity exercise. So for a 30 year old bodybuilder that would mean a heart rate of roughly 120. As a rule of thumb you should be out of breath, but still be able maintain a constant pace.



I agree on the point about recovery ability. HIIT is more taxing on the central nervous system. It can also interrupt the repair of damaged muscle from a session of resistance exercise. So probably not a good idea to do it the day after a heavy squats session. That being said, there are ways to integrate it with resistance exercise. Instead of doing things like sprints, which are highly taxing for connective tissues, muscles, and CNS, you can also do HIIT on a crosstrainer: drive up up the resistance while maintaining the pace and you will be able to crank up your heart rate a lot without over-exhausting any particular muscle group. due to the guided movement, CNS involvement is also reduced.

But even then, too frequent HIIT sessions can impair recovery. So an approach like nothuman suggested, where you do HIIT 1-2 twice a week on top of moderate steady state cardio might be ideal.

The rest of your claims I disagree with. Some of it I addressed in the other thread. The rest frankly isn't worth addressing, nonsense without any supporting evidence. We have seen just how unreliable your 'authoritative sources' are in the whole discussion about generic GH, with all those "famous chemists and professors' telling you complete nonsense (or you misunderstanding them completely).

All of my information is VERY low level and easy to verify, all you'd have to do is google it. You expect everyone to take the time to site all their information just for your lazy ass.

I really wish moderators would get rid of this troll, he is insulting, irrelevant, misleading, and incredibly annoying. I post on PM much LESS because of Jeff.

 

[MyNameIsJeff]

All of my information is VERY low level and easy to verify, all you'd have to do is google it. You expect everyone to take the time to site all their information just for your lazy ass.

I really wish moderators would get rid of this troll, he is insulting, irrelevant, misleading, and incredibly annoying. I post on PM much LESS because of Jeff.

Yeah how dare I challenge your ideas!!! Worse than that, proving your claims wrong over and over again!!! So rude