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How Bodybuilding Teaches Lifting Is 100% Wrong

Is the bench press really that technical for someone not doing power lifting? So how did all the great bodies before 2000 were built? I got my traps as big as they got doing low rep power cleans. Heavy squads place the most demand on your matabolism, same as deads, which means more muscle les fat, I went from 140 to my heaviest of 235 and the big 3 have always been my staples, along with power cleans, high pulls, barbell presses, all kinds of bent over rows, I guess if all you care about is looking pretty. Then by all means, but if you want to be functional out in the world, you are better off with the complex lifts
 
Good post interesting discussion. I didn't get to read the replies but I tend to lean towards the traditional method being better. Newbies can milk all the gains they can get out of the basic lifts, 5x5 routines etc. Then, they have added lbm, strength, they know what parts are weak and maybe what are too strong throwing off proportion. They can then use isolation use mm connection to focus on those weak parts that didn't get growth from compound lifts. If I know dips and bench make my Tris look great, I got no side delts, I can focus future programming on side delts. Just thinking out loud as most people I see who have alot of lbm but look bad it's due to high BF or just poor proportion. But your way could very well be better too would be an interesting study ..
 
I've thought this for years and Mike Van Wyck excellently articulated it on the latest Bro Chat. I've started it at his first point on training beginners; his second point starts at 02:01:40.



The Problem:
Bodybuilding dogma says the most important exercises and the best mass builders are the big compound lifts - barbell bench press, barbell squat, barbell deadlift, barbell overhead press. So guys decide they want to start bodybuilding and find a workout program built around those exercises and doing them first in the workout to give the most effort to them.

It's hard to fault them when all the literature mindlessly regurgitates this and the biggest names in the sport promote it. Lee Haney is deservedly revered for his accomplishments in amateur and professional bodybuilding but he should be equally reviled for his horrible training advice - that the only exercises one needs are barbell bench press, barbell rows, barbell squats, parallel bar dips, barbell curls, etc. This just shows what a genetic freak Haney was - he could've lifted any way he wanted and built one of the most dominant physiques of his era. Lee Haney, Ronnie Coleman, Jay Cutler, etc., are the last people new lifters should look to for guidance.

Why This Is A Problem:
The barbell bench / squat / deadlift / overhead press are some of the most technical. complex lifts when performed correctly. Building muscle isn't about technical complexities for the new lifter - it's about feeling the muscle squeeze and stretch through a range of motion. 99% of new lifters can't feel their muscles squeeze when simply flexing them, much less flexing them against a weight.

So we have new lifters with no mind-muscle connection being taught to do very complex lifts that they can't feel in the target muscle. Does it now make sense why so many guys start lifting and give up soon after? How can they expect to make substantial gains in muscle when they can't feel their muscles work and are using the worst possible exercises to target them as beginners? Does it make sense why so many of you reading this never built the physique you thought you would?

There's also a big hypocrisy issue. We love to trash the CrossFit community for throwing new members into Olympic lifts and other complex movements which lead to injuries and no muscle being built but bodybuilding does the same thing. We set new lifters up for failure.

The Steroid Analogy:
Most of Professional Muscle agrees that when a person starts using AAS their first cycle shouldn't be 1,000mg test / 750mg deca / 100mg dianabol. It's better to start with say 500mg of testosterone, get as much as you can from it, then add more when you have trouble progressing.

But when it comes to exercise we tell new lifters to start blasting with the most advanced lifts possible as soon as they start. How does this make sense? We should be teaching new lifters to start with isolation exercises. When their gains from those stall they can add advanced lifts to keep their progress going.

The Solution:
New lifters - and I specifically mean bodybuilders who want to maximize muscle mass - need to first be trained on establishing mind-muscle connection. It doesn't matter what exercise you do if you can't feel it in the target muscle. The new bodybuilder, regardless of plans on competing, should be posing daily to establish mind-muscle connection.

They should be introduced to exercise through isolation movements. They need to know what it's like to feel each muscle squeeze and stretch through its range of motion. They also need to learn the ways a muscle can contract - a fly or press for the chest, a row or pull for the back, etc.

Compound exercises shouldn't be introduced until one has a solid grasp on how individual muscles contract. If you can't contract a muscle in isolation it's very unlikely you'll be able to contract it when other muscles are involved.

My Personal Anecdote:
Before I started bodybuilding I spent a few years powerlifting. My focus was solely on being as strong as possible - moving the weight from point A to point B with whatever it took. When I switched to bodybuilding it quickly became clear that I didn't know how to use my muscles to lift. I decided to start pre-exhausting so I could feel the muscle more and moved my compound lifts towards the end of my workouts. To this day I still do this and regularly active members know the progress I've made over the last 4-5 years. While I don't have a great physique for competing, I do have one of the biggest and most developed physiques on Professional Muscle and I very much attribute my progress to finding my own way with training, discarding all the traditional bullshit. None of my gains have come from barbells and the only things I use dumbbells for are lateral and front raises.

I hope this generates good discussion and opens a lot of eyes on how wrong so much of bodybuilding dogma is and how we should really be structuring training from the beginning to maximize results.
I definitely get this. When I first started lifting in high school it was the same thing - all big compound movements. And for years I legit felt no mind muscle connection especially with barbell bench pressing - if you hadn’t told me it was a chest exercise as a 15 year old kid I would have said I was working out my arms lol.
 
I think a lot of the OT is lost in translation , I think the main point is that you should learn how to fire all the muscles you intend to build , assuming hypertrophy is the goal of course before you start a program .
There are plenty of people that are way stronger than they look , there's a skinny vegan at my gym pulling 600+ . There's a big difference between moving weight and stimulating muscle is the main point I got from the OP . I still do all the core lifts , these days it's about quality of reps and muscle stiim and not just moving weights
 
I think the main takeaway we can all agree on is that just training a muscle in an isolation movement doesnt guarantee mind muscle connection at all.
Even if you had a kid do leg extension and leg curls for 6 months, whose to say they move to squats later and feel it? We are assuming aloot here.

Main Point: Mind muscle connection is not dependant on exercise selection. It's dependant on countless hours of neural and motor unit development first...AND THEN the right exercise might come into play. So while we wait for those countless hours, we might as well work multiple muscles in compound movements and get stronger.
 
That's fair to a good extent but a few points:
  • I wasn't a freaky strong powerlifter because I never followed a proper program, just trained in low rep ranges - best lifts were 505 squat / 335 bench / 535 deadlift
  • When I started bodybuilding I quit the barbell versions of those and had to lower the weights on everything so I could learn to lift with my muscles
It may be more that I have a higher capacity for strength and stronger tendons which allowed me to become far stronger with more years training as a bodybuilder than as a powerlifter, helping me continue to increase size past where many stall out.
It sounds like you didn't start using steroids until after you made the switch to bodybuilding training
 
Another angle: mind-muscle connection is overrated. If you sit on a leg extension machine and then do the movement "correctly" without jerking and bouncing or whatever it doesn't matter if you feel it or not. The quad will contract to move the load. If drug dosages isn't touched, a person is pretty much always his biggest when at his strongest. And what you think you feel might not be what you think it is. A muscle may be working optimally when there isn't a lot of "feel signals" coming from it. For example if it's cramping it may not be firing optimally. Could be?
Of course I'm not dismissing "feel" signals altogether. We all learn to know and feel our bodies better the more we practise. I've practised 36 years myself.

If I were to try to make a beginner grow his fastest, I would have him work with high intensity with machines. A few hard sets for the target muscles, then, in the same workout, I would have him practise technical lifts with very submaximal weights before he would start hitting them harder and harder. Of course you also eventually need heavy weights though to practise proper form because technical breakdown breakdown occurs only when it's really heavy. With very advanced lifters there's very little technical breakdown no matter how heavy it is.
I agree with this to an extent. For example bicep curls you don't really need to squeeze the muscle to make them grow. And ever since I learned to bench correctly, I just naturally use my pecs for the movement without needing to focus on the connection. But for other movements, like varieties of lat pull downs, I usually do need to focus on the squeeze, at least for a few sets, to make sure I'm using my lats and not biceps, lower back, etc.
 
Not sure if all of you saw the podcast, but he is not talking about doing leg extensions. What he means, is teach someone how to engage their quads on a hacksquat or pedelum squat. Doesn't mean you have to lift baby weights. It's the same movement as the squat, but now you don't have to worry about balancing the bar, stabalizing, worrying about your lower back etc... All you have to focus is on teaching the person how actually drive with their legs not their hips/back or whatever to get the weight up.

The one thing that made the most sense to me, is when he mentioned trainers taking people who aren't even capable of lunging as they never had to balance their body and instead of teaching them that, instead slap a barbell on their back and tell them to squat. lol

Some mentioned that their legs never grew on the legpress instead they had to start squating. Probably true. But it's not because the squat is magical. I'm sure 99% of the lifters here after lifting for years, now know how to actually target leg muscles on the legpress, and not just move the weight. Big difference. I'm assuming this, because it took me years, maybe a couple decades to finally figure this out. I used to wonder why my legs weren't growing, yet I could hack squat six plates a side ass to grass.... yet some guy with legs twice the size of mine, was doing half the weight. Took a while for me to learn, that he was actually using his quads to move the weight, and I was using my hips, hip flexors or whatever else I could manage to drive the weight up.

Those mentioning benching will still build a chest. He never said it wouldn't. But maybe someone would benefit from starting on a seated converging bech press, to learn how to stay on his lats by keeping shoulders down, engage the pecs throught out the lift and learn how to turn the bench into a chest exercise and not a front delt exercise.
And even then he says, you can do what ever you want, have the worst form, you will still grow (especially at the begining) but there might be better approaches, less chance of injury and better development.

Just look at some of the IFBB Pros who have huge traps, upper back, and no lower lats. Yet they deadlift 700lbs, barbell row 4plates but still no lats. Mabye if they lowered the weight and learned how to connect with the lower lat they would improve instead of thinking,405lb bb row isn't working, need to get to 495lbs and then I will grow.
 
I've written about it many times. When I was younger and had a lot less muscles but I lifted more, but it was completely different from how I lift now. For this I used a lot of orlas which allowed me to amplify the impulses of the nervous system - it was completely different now I feel every single repetition each time controlling both the negative and positive phase of the repetition
 
I guess if all you care about is looking pretty. Then by all means, but if you want to be functional out in the world, you are better off with the complex lifts
Not sure if you noticed but the entire point of bodybuilding is actually focused on the visual results. You “functional” guys crack me up. You’re going to the grocery store and the bar sir. The odds that you are putting 500 lbs on your back outside of the gym ever in your entire life, probably zero.
 
Not sure if you noticed but the entire point of bodybuilding is actually focused on the visual results. You “functional” guys crack me up. You’re going to the grocery store and the bar sir. The odds that you are putting 500 lbs on your back outside of the gym ever in your entire life, probably zero.
I have done construction work all my life,! So for me it's very important to be as strong as possible and also flexible, but whatever
 
I have done construction work all my life,! So for me it's very important to be as strong as possible and also flexible, but whatever
If you are concerned with being as strong as possible, I believe that would fall more under the powerlifting category. I thought we were talking about bodybuilding but I could be mistaken.
 
I have done construction work all my life,! So for me it's very important to be as strong as possible and also flexible, but whatever
That’s what the machines are for my man! I get what your implying, but always work smarter not harder! No need in breaking your back when a front end loader, excavator, forklift can do heavy lifts effortlessly.

Cage
 
That’s what the machines are for my man! I get what your implying, but always work smarter not harder! No need in breaking your back when a front end loader, excavator, forklift can do heavy lifts effortlessly.

Cage
When i did construction many moons ago and we’d need to manhandle some heavy ass shit up some stairs or somewhere we couldn’t use a machine, would always fucking hate hearing the inevitable non-lifter comment when we were done…….


WELL I GUESS YOU DON’T NEED TO GO TO THE GYM TODAY, HYUK HYUK

😑
 
Main Point: Mind muscle connection is not dependant on exercise selection. It's dependant on countless hours of neural and motor unit development first...AND THEN the right exercise might come into play. So while we wait for those countless hours, we might as well work multiple muscles in compound movements and get stronger.


THIS ^👏🏿👏🏿👍🏿
 
I’ve benched 445lbs, squatted 600lbs, pulled 535 for 5 reps. Any of those numbers would BURY/BREAK me, immediately after I unracked them. But I carry much more muscle than I did when I could do those feats of strength.

The barbell is magical, for young ins. It’s life. But as we get older and focus on just adding tissue to the body, it’s extremely inefficient and sometimes takes more than it gives
 
Mike is 100% right and I too have been yelling this for years. You're preaching to the choir when it comes to me, anyway.
 
When i did construction many moons ago and we’d need to manhandle some heavy ass shit up some stairs or somewhere we couldn’t use a machine, would always fucking hate hearing the inevitable non-lifter comment when we were done…….


WELL I GUESS YOU DON’T NEED TO GO TO THE GYM TODAY, HYUK HYUK

😑

I hear that on every damn job I’m overseeing working in the oil field. Let Cage grab that, he’s swole and loves working out. No mother fuckers, I don’t just pick up a 15’ section of 12” .500 wall pipe… Man that shit weighs over a thousand pounds! Get a f’n machine in here jackass!!!!

Cage
 
I hear that on every damn job I’m overseeing working in the oil field. Let Cage grab that, he’s swole and loves working out. No mother fuckers, I don’t just pick up a 15’ section of 12” .500 wall pipe… Man that shit weighs over a thousand pounds! Get a f’n machine in here jackass!!!!

Cage
My favorite is when people need a hand moving furniture and they assume you would like to help because "you lift weights at the gym.". No, go hire someone for that. Moving furniture is work, the gym is something people do on their personal time.
 

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