how long do u wait to cut after bulking?

[buzzbomb138]

so how long does everybody wait to start cutting after finishing a bulk cycle? i just finished my final bulk cycle of test/MENT/DHB and it went great, gained 20lbs while remaining <15% (not a competitor, just a gym bro who likes to stay in the 10-15% range) and put on a lot of strength. obviously im now planning my final cut to follow this bulk and i only need to lose maybe 7-8 lbs to get back to my preferred leanness and i usually wait 12 wks or more to start cutting due to old school thinking of having to let the new muscle "acclimate/settle" on my frame, but ive been talking to chatGPT about it a lot and it is convinced thats theres no upside to muscle retention by waiting any more than 2-4 wks after finishing a bulk. it says muscle isnt some fragile tissue that gets burned off easier if its new or not, just as long as training stimulus is maintained, AAS support is continued for anticatabolism and calories arent dropped too quick too soon, theres no advantage to keeping the new muscle by waiting longer than a month max and then its just a waste of time beyond that. it also used the example of most all competitors go from bulk to cut for their contest preps and dont lose any muscle because of it, especially in the beginning of their preps, which is true, and i dont plan on cutting beyond 10% bf. so while chatGPT's logic is sound, its not a human nor a BBer with decades of experience like the dudes on this website so im wondering what u all think before i take its word for it and jump into a cut too early and fuck up my final bulk's progress lol.

final cut will be test/tren/var/hgh/EC/l-carn if that matters, a solid anticatabolic stack if u ask me so thatll def help in LBM preservation regardless of how long i wait to cut.

 

[luki7788]

https://www.professionalmuscle.com/...season-to-prep-transition.189017/post-3580837

That’s my answer to your question - we have 21 century time to end with this old school dumb thing „bulking and cutting”

 

[buzzbomb138]

thanks for chiming in @luki7788, and yes i totally agree. staying lean yr round is the best course of action, even during a progressive phase to add new tissue. and i feel i did a great job of that, starting around 11% and ending at 13-14% max, i just use the 10-15% range whereas competitors like urself would use something like 5-10% bf range, but its the same concept. but even when staying lean yr round, one must diet a bit at some point to polish up and chisel the small amount of fat gained away, even if its minimal. so let me rephrase the question that might be better suited to u: if i were one of ur competitors u coach, would u do a maintenance phase in between the progressive phase and a contest prep, or just straight to contest prep once the progressive phase concluded? and if so, how long would u do it? and do u feel itd help retain more muscle during the contest prep to have a pause like that?

 

[luki7788]

I don't use something like "maintenance phase" at all, I don't know where that term came from... people think they lose newly built muscles quickly and easily, but it's just an illusion, and actually the difference between myofibrillar and sarcoplasmic hypertrophy - you don't lose the real myofibrillar tissue... people lose sarcoplasm and think it's real tissue escaping, when in fact it was just fullness

 

[buzzbomb138]

I don't use something like "maintenance phase" at all, I don't know where that term came from... people think they lose newly built muscles quickly and easily, but it's just an illusion, and actually the difference between myofibrillar and sarcoplasmic hypertrophy - you don't lose the real myofibrillar tissue... people lose sarcoplasm and think it's real tissue escaping, when in fact it was just fullness

perfect, just the kind of answer im looking for, thanks. so u just have ur competitors go straight into contest preps from bulks? and do u switch compounds or just lower cals until steady fat loss is achieved?

 

[luki7788]

there is no single recipe - this is not a copy-paste plan, each case requires an individual approach

 

[FrenchBench22]

...u just have ur competitors go straight into contest preps from bulks? and do u switch compounds or just lower cals until steady fat loss is achieved?

I'm curious - what do you expect to be gained from a "maintenance phase" or "pre-prep" phase, with the understanding that health has been maintained in the "off-season/progressive phase" and that myofibrillar development won't suddenly melt away?

What purpose would a maintenance/pre-prep phase serve?

 

[bbxtreme]

so how long does everybody wait to start cutting after finishing a bulk cycle? i just finished my final bulk cycle of test/MENT/DHB and it went great, gained 20lbs while remaining <15% (not a competitor, just a gym bro who likes to stay in the 10-15% range) and put on a lot of strength. obviously im now planning my final cut to follow this bulk and i only need to lose maybe 7-8 lbs to get back to my preferred leanness and i usually wait 12 wks or more to start cutting due to old school thinking of having to let the new muscle "acclimate/settle" on my frame, but ive been talking to chatGPT about it a lot and it is convinced thats theres no upside to muscle retention by waiting any more than 2-4 wks after finishing a bulk. it says muscle isnt some fragile tissue that gets burned off easier if its new or not, just as long as training stimulus is maintained, AAS support is continued for anticatabolism and calories arent dropped too quick too soon, theres no advantage to keeping the new muscle by waiting longer than a month max and then its just a waste of time beyond that. it also used the example of most all competitors go from bulk to cut for their contest preps and dont lose any muscle because of it, especially in the beginning of their preps, which is true, and i dont plan on cutting beyond 10% bf. so while chatGPT's logic is sound, its not a human nor a BBer with decades of experience like the dudes on this website so im wondering what u all think before i take its word for it and jump into a cut too early and fuck up my final bulk's progress lol.

final cut will be test/tren/var/hgh/EC/l-carn if that matters, a solid anticatabolic stack if u ask me so thatll def help in LBM preservation regardless of how long i wait to cut.

I personally would look at it completely different. It’s not letting the muscle “settle in”. If it were me I’d be more focused on transitioning my cycle from Test, MENT and DHB as those are not sustainable compounds. They’re extremely taxing on the body and CNS.

Many guys confuse the scale weight after a cycle like tren, DHB or MENT with “new tissue”. The real tissue comes from the phase/transition after that. If it were me I would assess blood work and vitals, then adjust my cycle to something like Test, EQ, NPP as the weeks/months ahead is where the real tissue comes in.

 

[TheOtherOne55]

Luki’s answer is dead on, but I also think it’s far more targeted toward a high level BBer who has probably accrued all his size, for the most part. The days of jumping weight classes are over and it’s about fine tuning a physique. So yes, that 100% should be the attitude.

But if we are talking about the BBer in the middle of his journey, that route probably won’t do. I know it’s so popular to say, “well I don’t use the work bulk anymore,” but most guys need multiple phases of getting biggg in order to make real gains in tissue. Does that require a phase of maintenance in between the surplus and deficit? In my opinion, yes. People who are going to ask about the reason for a maintenance phase, you just want your body to rest in a zone that isn't an extreme surplus and yet isnt a deficit where you are losing weight. If you have been gaining on 7000 calories, i would drop to whatever the new maintenance is, say that is 6400 juuust to drop the excess water and glycogen down. Like what allows your weight to settle and hold. I feel like we've seen enough anecdotal evidence of this being a good thing. We've seen enough well known coaches do this. We've seen enough IFBB pros do this (taking a year off inbetween competitions). It works.

In my eyes there are 3 diff types of people:
1. Advanced Competitors - Luki's example is dead on for this. Basically, stay lean, stay ready. No need to go up and down.
2. On their BBing journey - needing new mass to advance their physique and/or jump weight classes. This person needs phases of getting big, holding, then prepping to keep progress going.
3. Regular Gym Bros - This person might not need reallll heavy surpluses, nor do they probably wanttt to live in the uncomfortable 10-20lbs above looking good. These guys also probably arent getting to a contest lean state anyway. Going from peak weight into a diet probably still works.

 

[FrenchBench22]

...for a maintenance phase, you just want your body to rest in a zone that isn't an extreme surplus and yet isnt a deficit where you are losing weight. If you have been gaining on 7000 calories, i would drop to whatever the new maintenance is, say that is 6400 juuust to drop the excess water and glycogen down. Like what allows your weight to settle and hold. I feel like we've seen enough anecdotal evidence of this being a good thing. We've seen enough well known coaches do this. We've seen enough IFBB pros do this (taking a year off inbetween competitions). It works.

What if for example someone finishes contest prep, their following off-season/progress phase training day nutrition starts from something like 300g P / 300g C / 30g F, and progresses to as much as 300g P / 1200g C / 50g F after 20-30 weeks.

Eventually, that 300/12000/50 won't be enough to increase weight and performance anymore and it will become maintenance calories. After several more weeks, that 300/1200/50 may even become a deficit if training and energy output can be sustained.

For a phase of holding/maintenance/health/etc, why not just stay at that upper calorie total that the "progressive phase" ended at, and not reduce to a lower amount like you mentioned, if that upper amount allows you to sustain performance, health, and recovery? I understand that for some people, decreasing calories by 10-50% during a transitional phase can further allow the cumulative stress on the gut and body to be momentarily relieved prior to beginning another strenuous phase (cutting), but if that reduction in stress can be observed at the highest calorie total recently achieved, why reduce?

The same can be asked for the AAS. What if someone's progressive phase gradually goes from something like just 300 test to eventually 1200/600/600 test eq npp (after 20-30 weeks), and health/inflammation/stress are well managed at that upper range, would there really be any benefit to reducing to something like 10-50% lower for a momentary phase?

 

[luki7788]

What if for example someone finishes contest prep, their following off-season/progress phase training day nutrition starts from something like 300g P / 300g C / 30g F, and progresses to as much as 300g P / 1200g C / 50g F after 20-30 weeks.

Eventually, that 300/12000/50 won't be enough to increase weight and performance anymore and it will become maintenance calories. After several more weeks, that 300/1200/50 may even become a deficit if training and energy output can be sustained.

For a phase of holding/maintenance/health/etc, why not just stay at that upper calorie total that the "progressive phase" ended at, and not reduce to a lower amount like you mentioned, if that upper amount allows you to sustain performance, health, and recovery? I understand that for some people, decreasing calories by 10-50% during a transitional phase can further allow the cumulative stress on the gut and body to be momentarily relieved prior to beginning another strenuous phase (cutting), but if that reduction in stress can be observed at the highest calorie total recently achieved, why reduce?

The same can be asked for the AAS. What if someone's progressive phase gradually goes from something like just 300 test to eventually 1200/600/600 test eq npp (after 20-30 weeks), and health/inflammation/stress are well managed at that upper range, would there really be any benefit to reducing to something like 10-50% lower for a momentary phase?

yes - oxidative stress is one of the causes

 

[TheOtherOne55]

What if for example someone finishes contest prep, their following off-season/progress phase training day nutrition starts from something like 300g P / 300g C / 30g F, and progresses to as much as 300g P / 1200g C / 50g F after 20-30 weeks.

Eventually, that 300/12000/50 won't be enough to increase weight and performance anymore and it will become maintenance calories. After several more weeks, that 300/1200/50 may even become a deficit if training and energy output can be sustained.

For a phase of holding/maintenance/health/etc, why not just stay at that upper calorie total that the "progressive phase" ended at, and not reduce to a lower amount like you mentioned, if that upper amount allows you to sustain performance, health, and recovery? I understand that for some people, decreasing calories by 10-50% during a transitional phase can further allow the cumulative stress on the gut and body to be momentarily relieved prior to beginning another strenuous phase (cutting), but if that reduction in stress can be observed at the highest calorie total recently achieved, why reduce?

The same can be asked for the AAS. What if someone's progressive phase gradually goes from something like just 300 test to eventually 1200/600/600 test eq npp (after 20-30 weeks), and health/inflammation/stress are well managed at that upper range, would there really be any benefit to reducing to something like 10-50% lower for a momentary phase?

Luki said it. Any reduction in overall inflammation and stress is a good one, especially if you are trying to go from one insanely stressful phase to another. That’s someone I have learned in my own pushes. The foot canttt constantly be on the gas. There needs to be phases of holding, just to relieve some stress on the system.

 

[buzzbomb138]

I'm curious - what do you expect to be gained from a "maintenance phase" or "pre-prep" phase, with the understanding that health has been maintained in the "off-season/progressive phase" and that myofibrillar development won't suddenly melt away?

What purpose would a maintenance/pre-prep phase serve?

just basically as i outlined in the OP, if waiting longer between bulking and cutting allows one to preserve more lean mass when cutting than just jumping into the cut post bulk. also as @bbxtreme, @TheOtherOne55, and @luki7788 pointed out, for health reasons as well to let things normalize again before hammering ur body again lol.

I personally would look at it completely different. It’s not letting the muscle “settle in”. If it were me I’d be more focused on transitioning my cycle from Test, MENT and DHB as those are not sustainable compounds. They’re extremely taxing on the body and CNS.

Many guys confuse the scale weight after a cycle like tren, DHB or MENT with “new tissue”. The real tissue comes from the phase/transition after that. If it were me I would assess blood work and vitals, then adjust my cycle to something like Test, EQ, NPP as the weeks/months ahead is where the real tissue comes in.

very true, and thats another advantage to waiting is giving the body more time to recoup and undo some of the damage done during the bulk cycle. so another +1 for waiting longer.

Luki’s answer is dead on, but I also think it’s far more targeted toward a high level BBer who has probably accrued all his size, for the most part. The days of jumping weight classes are over and it’s about fine tuning a physique. So yes, that 100% should be the attitude.

But if we are talking about the BBer in the middle of his journey, that route probably won’t do. I know it’s so popular to say, “well I don’t use the work bulk anymore,” but most guys need multiple phases of getting biggg in order to make real gains in tissue. Does that require a phase of maintenance in between the surplus and deficit? In my opinion, yes. People who are going to ask about the reason for a maintenance phase, you just want your body to rest in a zone that isn't an extreme surplus and yet isnt a deficit where you are losing weight. If you have been gaining on 7000 calories, i would drop to whatever the new maintenance is, say that is 6400 juuust to drop the excess water and glycogen down. Like what allows your weight to settle and hold. I feel like we've seen enough anecdotal evidence of this being a good thing. We've seen enough well known coaches do this. We've seen enough IFBB pros do this (taking a year off inbetween competitions). It works.

In my eyes there are 3 diff types of people:
1. Advanced Competitors - Luki's example is dead on for this. Basically, stay lean, stay ready. No need to go up and down.
2. On their BBing journey - needing new mass to advance their physique and/or jump weight classes. This person needs phases of getting big, holding, then prepping to keep progress going.
3. Regular Gym Bros - This person might not need reallll heavy surpluses, nor do they probably wanttt to live in the uncomfortable 10-20lbs above looking good. These guys also probably arent getting to a contest lean state anyway. Going from peak weight into a diet probably still works.

totally agreed, and i def fall into #3 of your analogy. and seeing as how thisll be my last horrah with bulking and cutting (i turn 40 real soon and dont want to be doing AAS cycles and risking my health any longer), i want to make sure i retain all the LBM i gained from this last cycle so nothing goes to waste as i wont be doing anything more than TRT+HGH going forward so i wont be able to recoup it if its lost.