How much AI …..

[hollaatyaboyy1]

The craziest part is @hollaatyaboyy1 has been a member here for 15 years and still asked this. I guess most people just use this board for sources and not actually learning bodybuilding.

I’ve been out of the game a long time i was very much in tune with my body in my 20s and early 30s. What worked then does not work now for me in my situation .

The diets i used to do are not working the same I’m not training like a madman anymore and i haven’t ran gear in years

As you get older things change and your body doesn’t react the same as it did

 

[Alzadosghost]

None. Ever. No gyno issues, no acne. Got acne on my first cycle decades ago never got it again. Got a little gyno from dbol but it went away. I see no reason to run an Al if I have no sides

 

[LATS]

People don't sometimes understand the accumulated effect that AI can have. .5 arimidex in 4 weeks can have you at idea range.. 2 weeks later a 10 point drop.. there is a buildup.. use the least amount possible and let it accumulated for a bit.. in 4 to 5 weeks get a blood test. Preferably two days after the AI last taken.

 

[Alzadosghost]

I’d rather have excess estrogen rather than none any day of the week.

 

[LATS]

I’d rather have excess estrogen rather than none any day of the week.

There wS recently a study showing that high estrogen in men did not result in sexual dysfunction as long as test was present in normal levels.. but. . The issue become how much before we start risking the prostate etc..that being said, Evan centopani once laughed at how guys are worried about being estrogen dominant when pushing 750mgs or more of test .. thats always stuck with me

 

[Siggy]

There wS recently a study showing that high estrogen in men did not result in sexual dysfunction as long as test was present in normal levels.. but. . The issue become how much before we start risking the prostate etc..that being said, Evan centopani once laughed at how guys are worried about being estrogen dominant when pushing 750mgs or more of test .. thats always stuck with me

The evidence that estradiol causes prostate cancer is scant and shoddy at best. They have been going back and forth with that for at least 24 years with most studies supporting this theory being decades old studies.

 

[Siggy]

The evidence that estradiol causes prostate cancer is scant and shoddy at best. They have been going back and forth with that for at least 24 years with most studies supporting this theory being decades old studies.

Interestingly, this newer study implicates high free testosterone and igf1

Largest study to date confirms role of two hormones in aggressive prostate cancer risk — Cancer Epidemiology Unit (CEU)

www.ceu.ox.ac.uk

 

[LATS]

The evidence that estradiol causes prostate cancer is scant and shoddy at best. They have been going back and forth with that for at least 24 years with most studies supporting this theory being decades old studies.

True.. but when my father was dying of prostate cancer the leading specialist at Barnes openly said that it wasn't androgen that worried him as much as higher estrodial.. now granted igf is always a cancer as its a promoter. But he's basing his opinion on what he sees daily in his practice..

 

[LATS]

The evidence that estradiol causes prostate cancer is scant and shoddy at best. They have been going back and forth with that for at least 24 years with most studies supporting this theory being decades old studies.

https://acsjournals.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1002/cncr.26136#:~:text=5029%2D5038-,Circulating%20estradiol%2C%20but%20not%20testosterone%2C%20is%20a%20significant%20predictor%20of,in%20patients%20undergoing%20radical%20prostatectomy

 

[Siggy]

https://acsjournals.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1002/cncr.26136#:~:text=5029%2D5038-,Circulating%20estradiol%2C%20but%20not%20testosterone%2C%20is%20a%20significant%20predictor%20of,in%20patients%20undergoing%20radical%20prostatectomy

That is a 13 year old study, right around the same time as the study came out they were still shrinking prostate tumors with estrogen.

 

[LATS]

That is a 13 year old study, right around the same time as the study came out they were still shrinking prostate tumors with estrogen.

There are new studies still coming to the same conclusion...

Role of Estrogen in Androgen-Induced Prostate Carcinogenesis in NBL Rats - Discover Oncology

Androgens are thought to cause prostate cancer, but the underlying mechanisms are unclear. Data from animal studies suggest that for androgens to cause prostate cancer, they must be aromatized to estrogen and act in concert with estrogen metabolites. We tested the hypothesis that...

link.springer.com

Not going to post them all but we can just agree there is many variables to consider in regards to prostate cancer

 

[Siggy]

https://acsjournals.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1002/cncr.26136#:~:text=5029%2D5038-,Circulating%20estradiol%2C%20but%20not%20testosterone%2C%20is%20a%20significant%20predictor%20of,in%20patients%20undergoing%20radical%20prostatectomy

In addition the study implies that high estrogen might signal a more aggressive form of prostate cancer in men who already have known prostate cancer, it doesnt imply that estrogen is what caused the prostate cancer.

 

[Siggy]

There are new studies still coming to the same conclusion...

Role of Estrogen in Androgen-Induced Prostate Carcinogenesis in NBL Rats - Discover Oncology

Androgens are thought to cause prostate cancer, but the underlying mechanisms are unclear. Data from animal studies suggest that for androgens to cause prostate cancer, they must be aromatized to estrogen and act in concert with estrogen metabolites. We tested the hypothesis that...

link.springer.com

Not going to post them all but we can just agree there is many variables to consider in regards to prostate cancer

This was a study done on lab rats.

 

[LATS]

In addition the study implies that high estrogen might signal a more aggressive form of prostate cancer in men who already have known prostate cancer, it doesnt imply that estrogen is what caused the prostate cancer.

So your telling me that using a estrogen to prove its ability to proliferate cancer is eliminating the idea that estrodial can be a concern in prostate cancer.. ?? I think that's a bit of a stretch..

 

[Siggy]

So your telling me that using a estrogen to prove its ability to proliferate cancer is eliminating the idea that estrodial can be a concern in prostate cancer.. ?? I think that's a bit of a stretch..

I think both estrogen and test have been implicated in the growth for certain types of prostate cancer tumors. As far as hard evidence that estrogen actually causes prostate cancer, there is no smoking gun and no hard evidence. I dont care if a surgeon or physician says otherwise, they are merely giving their own opinion, not stating a fact. To be fair, it hasnt been proven that it doesnt cause prostate cancer

Cancer.org does not make a mention of estrogen or any type of androgen as a possible cause, mentioning only inherited gene mutations as a possible cause along with obesity, smoking etc. They do however mention igf1 as a possible cause.

What Causes Prostate Cancer?| Causes of Prostate Cancer

Prostate cancer is caused by changes in the genes of a normal prostate cell. Learn more about the causes of prostate cancer here.

www.cancer.org

The NHS flat out says "It's not known exactly what causes prostate cancer"

Prostate cancer - Causes

It is not known exactly what causes prostate cancer, although there are some things that can increase your risk of developing the condition.

www.nhs.uk

The Mayo clinic also says "It's not clear what causes prostate cancer.'

Prostate cancer - Symptoms and causes

www.mayoclinic.org

From the Prostate Cancer Foundation " The answer is simple, but unsatisfying: doctors and researchers don’t know exactly—yet."

Prostate Cancer Causes

What are some prostate cancer causes? Learn about the genetics of prostate cancer.

www.pcf.org

 

[slesh]

There wS recently a study showing that high estrogen in men did not result in sexual dysfunction as long as test was present in normal levels.. but. . The issue become how much before we start risking the prostate etc..that being said, Evan centopani once laughed at how guys are worried about being estrogen dominant when pushing 750mgs or more of test .. thats always stuck with me

I concur

 

[dimethyl11]

how long would you recommend waiting between bloods to asses for AI effect on e2?

 

[Mufasa123]

how long would you recommend waiting between bloods to asses for AI effect on e2?

Firstly, I'm not an expert in this area so this is based on my experience, copious bloods over ~15 years, etc.

I generally wait 4 weeks which I think is likely very conservative. An AI only change (ie you aren't changing anything in estrified testosterone dosages or frequency) should be pretty short. I'd bet 2 weeks you'd see the overwhelming majority of the move but unless necessary for some reason I generally give it 4 which should be pretty stable with constant in place test dosing.

If I was fighting gyno (never happened) and I wasn't sure my Ai or letro was legit I'd be satisfied with big downward directional moves in a week and probably be doing weekly tests. No idea.

 

[dimethyl11]

Great thanks - I recently added EQ to help with the estro management as I easily aromatize. I’ll wait 4 weeks and pull bloods to see where my e2 is

 

[Mufasa123]

Great thanks - I recently added EQ to help with the estro management as I easily aromatize. I’ll wait 4 weeks and pull bloods to see where my e2 is

May be an issue. I was talking about AI alone and not an aas. You chose an aas that varies widely in its ability to function as an Ai (crushes my E2 personally but that's me) and you chose one with one of the very longest esters to reach stability. I'd guess equipoise exerts it's Ai effect via metabolite so after blood levels stabilize via weeks of admin and layered deestrification. 4 weeks may be more a minimum in this situation. That said for me the Ai effect from equipoise seemed to hit hard a lot earlier than the ester would lead one to believe.