How much gear is too much? The REAL point of diminishing returns

[traininsane11]

Another interesting video for my anabolic connoisseurs

My opinion just to open it up for more of a debate is that it’s the maximum dosage BEFORE the side effects outweigh the positive effects which will be personal dependent.

I believe from a progression health perspective once digestion, sleep or training start to be impacted you need to pull back or rethink your stack design. Gear should be there to enhance those things not take away from it

Dave mentions he got up to 4.5g and the first time around it was productive

IF I had to put a number on it I honestly think across the board 2-3g and 15-20iu hgh seems to be the max dosages where most (not all) seem to tap out before it goes backwards

I also believe it’s finding the dosages and compounds that let you run them at the highest amounts (relative to you) for the longest periods of time. If you have to do health phases every 10 weeks cause your pushing it to hard or using unproductive compounds then what’s the point it takes moooonths and years as we know.

A lot of factors go into it but again rough numbers if you can’t sustain a progressive phase for a minimum of 16-20 weeks cause you’re overdoing anything then you’re doing it wrong

 

[cage99]

100% what you said on when the side effects outweigh the positive benefits. That’s the simple truth!

Cage

 

[Sectør]

I think the short answer is it varies person to person

The longer answer is it varies by compound: 1g of tren will make most people lose their shit and probably feel like crap rather quickly. 1g of DHB will have your HS-CRP so elevated you’ll be so inflamed and lethargic you won’t even want to get out of bed. 1g test makes most people feel great. Primo is pretty mild
Mg wise and is a good filler, mast is pretty mild mg wise and is a good filler, eq generally needs to be run higher due to ester weight and most people seem to tolerate it well, some don’t. Deca or NPP is pretty hit or miss

The more realistic answer is most people should be able to handle 2-3g relatively easy with maybe minimal support or ancillary compounds (assuming things like blood pressure and health markers remain normal)

Above 2-3g water retention starts to mount, things like sleep apnea become more noticeable, blood pressure gets considerably worse, inflammation is up, cholesterol and hemocrit likely start to become more of a heavy consideration. Of course there’s some people who can genetically just tolerate gear better and exceptions to the rule, but for the average person above 2-3g you really need a lot of ancillaries to keep the train going and even then it’s not really healthy. You’re just trying to minimize damage

 

[bigzzz]

Is your fetish gh dosing and aas dosing?

 

[traininsane11]

Is your fetish gh dosing and aas dosing?

It’s my whole identity at this point

 

[Yousef12O2]

Bostin Loyd RIP got up to 13 grams at some point, said didn't gain anything out of it. JP got up to 6+ grams a week and said it wasn't needed, and could have gotten the same results with maybe half as much. On this board RsMainz got up to 8 grams and said the sides greatly outweigh the results and how his body was stressed and couldn't progress smoothly.

 

[traininsane11]

Bostin Loyd RIP got up to 13 grams at some point, said didn't gain anything out of it. JP got up to 6+ grams a week and said it wasn't needed, and could have gotten the same results with maybe half as much. On this board RsMainz got up to 8 grams and said the sides greatly outweigh the results and how his body was stressed and couldn't progress smoothly.

All good points

I’d hate to say an actual “max” number but damn it I will do it and be the authority on the matter

4g is the absolute max anyone needs including arse end of prep with orals in

There I said it

 

[luki7788]

Another interesting video for my anabolic connoisseurs

My opinion just to open it up for more of a debate is that it’s the maximum dosage BEFORE the side effects outweigh the positive effects which will be personal dependent.

I believe from a progression health perspective once digestion, sleep or training start to be impacted you need to pull back or rethink your stack design. Gear should be there to enhance those things not take away from it

Dave mentions he got up to 4.5g and the first time around it was productive

IF I had to put a number on it I honestly think across the board 2-3g and 15-20iu hgh seems to be the max dosages where most (not all) seem to tap out before it goes backwards

I also believe it’s finding the dosages and compounds that let you run them at the highest amounts (relative to you) for the longest periods of time. If you have to do health phases every 10 weeks cause your pushing it to hard or using unproductive compounds then what’s the point it takes moooonths and years as we know.

A lot of factors go into it but again rough numbers if you can’t sustain a progressive phase for a minimum of 16-20 weeks cause you’re overdoing anything then you’re doing it wrong

Bro, with all respect… stop overthinking. You think so much about doses, cycles, what’s optimal, what’s good or bad, that you probably can’t even sleep because your head is spinning nonstop. And honestly, this stress is worse than just doing things consistently without analyzing every detail. Stop overanalyzing. That’s my honest advice for you.

 

[Elvia1023]

4g is the absolute max anyone needs including arse end of prep with orals in

There I said it

Surely that goes against everything you wrote in your original post. What if someone feels great on 4g and are mainly using "milder" compounds. What if they get even better results when they up to 4.5g. At the same time what if someone else is on 3g and feels horrible and feels and responds better to less drugs.

I completely agree with Luki. You are way overthinking the drugs part of the equation. Everyone is different. Just do you. Use what you like and what you respond best to. Gradually build up the dose over the years and see where you end up. Don't worry about what others can tolerate or prefer as it has no effect on you.

 

[traininsane11]

Bro, with all respect… stop overthinking. You think so much about doses, cycles, what’s optimal, what’s good or bad, that you probably can’t even sleep because your head is spinning nonstop. And honestly, this stress is worse than just doing things consistently without analyzing every detail. Stop overanalyzing. That’s my honest advice for you.

Ironically I just said pretty much exactly this to someone that the overthinking ends up taking away the fun from whatever progress you may make.

100% agree though just lock into something and give it a run and see what happens and take notes along the way then evaluate at the end not every 5 minutes

I will add though on a personal note this is my first time ever trying to figure it out for myself without having someone say do XYZ so it’s just trying to make sure whatever I’m doing is the right thing and seeking that confirmation from those more knowledgable than me but still the same applies once that’s done just do it and don’t overthink

 

[traininsane11]

Surely that goes against everything you wrote in your original post. What if someone feels great on 4g and are mainly using "milder" compounds. What if they get even better results when they up to 4.5g. At the same time what if someone else is on 3g and feels horrible and feels and responds better to less drugs.

I completely agree with Luki. You are way overthinking the drugs part of the equation. Everyone is different. Just do you. Use what you like and what you respond best to. Gradually build up the dose over the years and see where you end up. Don't worry about what others can tolerate or prefer as it has no effect on you.

It was mostly for the comic effect lol but also from everything I’ve consumed from reliable sources of info it does seem to be about right for a rough average

And I do totally agree with both you and Luki and as I touched on my reply to him I’m just trying to figure out what to actually do and what does and doesn’t work with it being me steering the ship

Educated trial and error with less errors than trials and DEFINITELY less overthinking and trying to find the most “optimal” approach

 

[kadafi2]

I'll just add that, for example:

875 test
700 tren
175 ment

will yield more and be more taxing on the body than:

875 test
1 g masteron
1 g eq.

1750 mg vs 2875 mg.

Relying solely on the mg number is very inaccurate. When talking about the mg number, you should also include the equipment you're using.
@Sector has been paying attention to this for a long time and I agree with it 100%.

 

[Swifto]

It was mostly for the comic effect lol but also from everything I’ve consumed from reliable sources of info it does seem to be about right for a rough average

And I do totally agree with both you and Luki and as I touched on my reply to him I’m just trying to figure out what to actually do and what does and doesn’t work with it being me steering the ship

Educated trial and error with less errors than trials and DEFINITELY less overthinking and trying to find the most “optimal” approach

"Errors" are fine, they're your feedback telling you what works and what does not. You cannot find the best path for you without errors.

 

[dantes]

I'll just add that, for example:

875 test
700 tren
175 ment

will yield more and be more taxing on the body than:

875 test
1 g masteron
1 g eq.

1750 mg vs 2875 mg.

Relying solely on the mg number is very inaccurate. When talking about the mg number, you should also include the equipment you're using.
@Sector has been paying attention to this for a long time and I agree with it 100%.

I honestly think I would build more muscle on the second cycle as I would be able to tolerate it long term but I get your point.

 

[OuchThatHurts]

"Errors" are fine, they're your feedback telling you what works and what does not. You cannot find the best path for you without errors.

Exactly. Trial and error. And this is no "one size fits all" endeavor. I don't care who you are.

That said, the general rule I've seen over the decades is that more is usually better (for size). BUT! Only up to the point you can't tolerate it. At my age, it's a simple 150mg test C/wk, 50mg tren/wk, 2-4iu GH/day, and some Humalog before and after workouts. Even on that little bit I have to back off a few weeks every couple months.

 

[luki7788]

If I had to give one piece of advice to my past self, it would be this: don’t listen to what other people are doing. Don’t listen to your friends, don’t follow what people write on forums, don’t ask everyone for advice. Just follow your own intuition. The worst results I ever got were from listening to others and copying their methods and ideas.

Ironically I just said pretty much exactly this to someone that the overthinking ends up taking away the fun from whatever progress you may make.

100% agree though just lock into something and give it a run and see what happens and take notes along the way then evaluate at the end not every 5 minutes

I will add though on a personal note this is my first time ever trying to figure it out for myself without having someone say do XYZ so it’s just trying to make sure whatever I’m doing is the right thing and seeking that confirmation from those more knowledgable than me but still the same applies once that’s done just do it and don’t overthink

 

[kadafi2]

I honestly think I would build more muscle on the second cycle as I would be able to tolerate it long term but I get your point.

Yes, I assumed everyone would know what I was talking about. We're just assuming we can tolerate both cycles equally well in terms of side effects.

 

[OuchThatHurts]

If I had to give one piece of advice to my past self, it would be this: don’t listen to what other people are doing. Don’t listen to your friends, don’t follow what people write on forums, don’t ask everyone for advice.

This × 1000. And it can apply to almost anything in life.

 

[Heath82]

Dan Duchaine stated that above 4 grams opens up another pathway of growth. A lot of people that tried it seemed to agree. FWIW

 

[Siggy]

Dan Duchaine stated that above 4 grams opens up another pathway of growth. A lot of people that tried it seemed to agree. FWIW