How much gear is too much? The REAL point of diminishing returns

[PRorER]

What frustrates me is the polarization of this topic. For instance, you have threads like this where a lot of people are saying 500-750mg of test is enough, and anything else is a waste. And right above it, we have Big A's thread from years ago, with hundreds of members agreeing that successful physiques are built on grams upon grams, and 1g test is a cruise when you're serious.

It's head-spinning. For years, I've bounced back and forth between "I need to up the dose if I want to grow" and "I should be responsible, and lower it. My body probably can't even handle all this AAS."

Big As thread is very insightful, but I think the context of that thread is more in regards to pro/high level national bodybuilders and in that case ya were talking multiple grams as a cycle and rarely coming down below 1 gram. But 500-700mg Test would definitely build a solid physique, just don’t expect to be mid 200’s at single digit bf%

 

[Klax]

Big As thread is very insightful, but I think the context of that thread is more in regards to pro/high level national bodybuilders and in that case ya were talking multiple grams as a cycle and rarely coming down below 1 gram. But 500-700mg Test would definitely build a solid physique, just don’t expect to be mid 200’s at single digit bf%

But I want to be mid 200’s at single digit bf%

I’m beginning to even question the idea of “growing into a dose”. Was watching a podcast today where the participant was talking about how if you don’t have enough muscle cells to utilize the hormones, it’ll spill over into unwanted areas - I.e. just more side effects unless you have enough muscle to saturate but not “over saturate” leading to “overflow”… It was Todd Lee on Nyle’s podcast fyi.

I don’t think anybody really knows.

 

[b-boy]

What frustrates me is the polarization of this topic. For instance, you have threads like this where a lot of people are saying 500-750mg of test is enough, and anything else is a waste. And right above it, we have Big A's thread from years ago, with hundreds of members agreeing that successful physiques are built on grams upon grams, and 1g test is a cruise when you're serious.

It's head-spinning. For years, I've bounced back and forth between "I need to up the dose if I want to grow" and "I should be responsible, and lower it. My body probably can't even handle all this AAS."

1. Lock in all aspects, training, Nutrition, recovery
2. Progressively increase weights, calories, gear.

When you have done this and have built a good amount of tissue on your frame you will eventually be
A. Pretty damn strong
B. Eating a lot of food
C. Taking a pretty decent amount of gear

The people BIG A refers to have all mastered those concepts.

 

[NEMSZ]

What frustrates me is the polarization of this topic. For instance, you have threads like this where a lot of people are saying 500-750mg of test is enough, and anything else is a waste. And right above it, we have Big A's thread from years ago, with hundreds of members agreeing that successful physiques are built on grams upon grams, and 1g test is a cruise when you're serious.

It's head-spinning. For years, I've bounced back and forth between "I need to up the dose if I want to grow" and "I should be responsible, and lower it. My body probably can't even handle all this AAS."

I hear you on this. I’ve been on this forum for 14+ years, and I’ve seen it an unlimited amount of times, even from some of the same members completely contradicting themselves on this very topic depending who they’re talking to.

A guy who’s 200lbs-220lbs and say 7% bodyfat trying to be as big as he can, as best he can, will post up being on 2-3g gear and he’ll get roasted that his physique is achievable on 500mg Test and an AI, that diet and training should be the main levers etc.

You’ll have people literally kill themselves abusing the shit out of everything under the sun and when someone says “maybe we should talk about more responsible gear use etc” they’re met with hostility and the fact this is a HARDCORE bodybuilding forum and the only thing accepted here is to overdo absolutely everything.

I don’t fucking get it either.

I know you have goals of getting huge and you’ve said you’re eating big, training hard and you’re obviously willing to push the doses to get there and you’re met with “Your doses are too high, be responsible, you can achieve your goals on 1/4 the dose” etc

When I asked like a year ago for help getting me from competing 170lbs in BJJ to competing at 200lbs and being like 10-11% bodyfat, nothing crazy by any means, especially for this “hardcore” forum, and that I wanted to exhaust training and food as main levers and was only willing to push to 1g of gear if needed, but health was a priority and didn’t mind if it took me 2 years to get there etc.

I was met with “Pft, your doses are too low, it’ll take you like 5 years to get there, if at all” etc etc.. Complete opposite.. Mind you, I’m not an advanced lifter at all in terms of development, it’s not like a SHW who’s 270 on stage is saying they want to gain 30lbs stage weight in a year. At that point I had barely touched the levers of hard weight training and food or even gear for that matter (only trained BJJ for years, haven’t lifted seriously since my early 20’s), you’d figure it’d be a prime environment to explode those “newbish” gains and I was met with those kind of responses.

 

[luki7788]

But I want to be mid 200’s at single digit bf%

I’m beginning to even question the idea of “growing into a dose”. Was watching a podcast today where the participant was talking about how if you don’t have enough muscle cells to utilize the hormones, it’ll spill over into unwanted areas - I.e. just more side effects unless you have enough muscle to saturate but not “over saturate” leading to “overflow”… It was Todd Lee on Nyle’s podcast fyi.

I don’t think anybody really knows.

Let's be honest - 200% lbs with, say, 7-8% bodyfat is the physique of a fit guy, not a bodybuilder. Unless you're 160cm, then that's a different story.

And speaking from 15 years of coaching experience, you don't need more than 700-800mg to achieve that, and once you do, you'll probably need no more than 500mg to maintain it and even improve slightly (improvement doesn't always mean overall growth).

 

[PissedPajamas]

What frustrates me is the polarization of this topic. For instance, you have threads like this where a lot of people are saying 500-750mg of test is enough, and anything else is a waste. And right above it, we have Big A's thread from years ago, with hundreds of members agreeing that successful physiques are built on grams upon grams, and 1g test is a cruise when you're serious.

It's head-spinning. For years, I've bounced back and forth between "I need to up the dose if I want to grow" and "I should be responsible, and lower it. My body probably can't even handle all this AAS."

Do the necessary bloodwork, echos, cardiac monitoring, take all the supps and peptides that will extend your organ health, and then go by sides. If I could tolerate 1.5g+ of test and multiple anabolics I probably would do it, but everyone is different.

Like, I’m sure I could do 1g test, 2g mast, 800 EQ, 15iu GH ED and a fuckton of var. I won’t get any sides on this except internal health might go to shit for a bit, but at this point money is the limitation lol. And honestly how much better are you gonna grow on a massive stack vs a slightly more responsible stack when training and food are the main drivers of growth? Just food for thought

 

[Flocci]

And honestly how much better are you gonna grow on a massive stack vs a slightly more responsible stack when training and food are the main drivers of growth? Just food for thought

Exactly, from my personal experience, you can only grow so fast so taking more after a certain point doesnt bring anything beneficial but it can cause you more negatives, more cost to health, finances and your overall wellbeing as well which ultimately will impact your recovery as well.

Maximize your food, training, sleep, lifestyle, do your cardio, take your supplements and titrate your doses as you go and manipulate them up or down depending on how you respond at the time, like we do with the food and more and more people are doing with their training as well.

 

[luki7788]

Exactly, from my personal experience, you can only grow so fast so taking more after a certain point doesnt bring anything beneficial but it can cause you more negatives, more cost to health, finances and your overall wellbeing as well which ultimately will impact your recovery as well.

Maximize your food, training, sleep, lifestyle, do your cardio, take your supplements and titrate your doses as you go and manipulate them up or down depending on how you respond at the time, like we do with the food and more and more people are doing with their training as well.

I keep trying to explain this and I write about it everywhere, because it’s a fact. Constantly increasing doses will not give you more growth. There is a certain dose that maximizes gains, and that’s it. You won’t increase protein synthesis forever and you won’t speed up recovery beyond a certain point.

At some point you pass the line of diminishing returns. You take more and all you get are more side effects. And paradoxically your results get worse than they were on lower doses. Why? Because side effects start to mess everything up. Digestion gets worse, you start feeling bad all the time, you can’t train optimally anymore. And training is the most important factor for hypertrophy and growth. Health problems also start to show up, your body works less efficiently, and the higher you go, the worse it usually gets.
Of course many people keep pushing and taking even more, thinking it will somehow get better. It won’t. It only gets worse. You can believe me, because I’ve been there and I did it. For years I was close to 4 grams total. For years. I was using around 150 IU of insulin per day, running trenbolone all year, 4+ grams per week. And what happened?

Today I can stay under 1 gram most of the time. Even now, in my current push phase, call it a cycle if you want, I’m on about 1750 mg total, test + masteron + primo, and I’m growing. I’m making real progress to be honest even when I run around 1g I still have a progress just now I want a litlle bit more for 10-12 week then I will back to around 1g and I'm sure that I will still continiue some small improvments. In the past, when I was taking 4g+, I didn't believe that I could grow on it - back then I claimed that I needed 2g+ to maintain what I had lol I was very wrong and today I admit it - I'm not ashamed of my mistakes and errors because I'm only human.

The same logic applies to food. If you think 8000 calories will give you better growth, that’s not true. You can gain 20, 30, 40 pounds in the offseason, but when you diet down for a show, you’ll still end up maybe 2–3 kg heavier on stage. So what’s the point of abusing your body, increasing inflammation, ruining insulin sensitivity, worsening cholesterol, destroying gut health with massive calories and massive protein intake, if you can grow slowly on a small surplus?
After a year, you’ll still be maybe 10 pounds above your stage weight in the offseason, and you’ll still build the same 2–3 kg of muscle in a year. And 2–3 kg of real muscle is a lot. The guy who gained 40 pounds in the offseason and dieted down ends up in the same place as you: also 2–3 kg more muscle.

I’ve been there. I’ve done it. That’s how it works. Many other very experienced people have the same experience. And honestly, most people won’t listen unless they’ve been there themselves and gone through it the hard way.

 

[luki7788]

@luki7788, I'll just add: I know you're promoting low doses now, but when you weighed 300 pounds, you were taking high doses. Now, as you wrote, you wouldn't even want to weigh that much, but objectively, if you wanted to get back to that weight, you wouldn't do it on less than 2 grams. Of course, you're growing now, but it's one thing if you were once huge and lost weight, and another if you were just trying to get to that size.

Bro, sorry, but I completely disagree. Right now I weigh 265 pounds, and I weighed basically the same when I was running only around 1 gram. I was about 260, and now I’m 5 pounds heavier only because I increased carbs, not because I increased gear by 700 mg.

I could easily get back to 300 pounds even on just 1 gram. I would only need to push carbs higher, to something like 1000–1200 grams. Right now I’m at 800. If I did that, I’d instantly gain another 20–25 pounds. The rest would come with a bit more time. So no, I don’t agree with that at all.

Right now I’m holding myself back on purpose. I want to stay as lean as possible, with minimal water retention. I didn’t lose muscle, I didn’t lose size. My measurements are the same, or even bigger than before. My legs are the biggest they’ve ever been. My chest measurement is almost the same, even though I can barely train chest because my shoulder is fucked, and still I’m not losing muscle.

And if I wanted, I could easily bring the weight back. Not even size, just bodyweight, because the size is already there. That aditional 30-35lbs are only fullness glycogen And intramuscular water not real muscle tissue

 

[Klax]

Bro, sorry, but I completely disagree. Right now I weigh 265 pounds, and I weighed basically the same when I was running only around 1 gram. I was about 260, and now I’m 5 pounds heavier only because I increased carbs, not because I increased gear by 700 mg.

I could easily get back to 300 pounds even on just 1 gram. I would only need to push carbs higher, to something like 1000–1200 grams. Right now I’m at 800. If I did that, I’d instantly gain another 20–25 pounds. The rest would come with a bit more time. So no, I don’t agree with that at all.

Right now I’m holding myself back on purpose. I want to stay as lean as possible, with minimal water retention. I didn’t lose muscle, I didn’t lose size. My measurements are the same, or even bigger than before. My legs are the biggest they’ve ever been. My chest measurement is almost the same, even though I can barely train chest because my shoulder is fucked, and still I’m not losing muscle.

And if I wanted, I could easily bring the weight back. Not even size, just bodyweight, because the size is already there. That aditional 30-35lbs are only fullness glycogen And intramuscular water not real muscle tissue

Luki, I agree with everything you're saying. But, I think what @kadafi2 is saying, is that when you say "For years. I was using around 150 IU of insulin per day, running trenbolone all year, 4+ grams per week. And what happened?" That's the dosage that got you to your current size that you can now modulate smaller doses and incremental changes in nutrition to go up and down in weight. But the "foundation" was created with super high doses.

That's not what I'm implying, or have concluded, but I believe that's what was being suggested by the previous poster.

So I suppose I'll add a question to that, Luki. Do you feel strongly that you could have reached your current size on a gram of total gear?

 

[kadafi2]

Bro, sorry, but I completely disagree. Right now I weigh 265 pounds, and I weighed basically the same when I was running only around 1 gram. I was about 260, and now I’m 5 pounds heavier only because I increased carbs, not because I increased gear by 700 mg.

I could easily get back to 300 pounds even on just 1 gram. I would only need to push carbs higher, to something like 1000–1200 grams. Right now I’m at 800. If I did that, I’d instantly gain another 20–25 pounds. The rest would come with a bit more time. So no, I don’t agree with that at all.

Right now I’m holding myself back on purpose. I want to stay as lean as possible, with minimal water retention. I didn’t lose muscle, I didn’t lose size. My measurements are the same, or even bigger than before. My legs are the biggest they’ve ever been. My chest measurement is almost the same, even though I can barely train chest because my shoulder is fucked, and still I’m not losing muscle.

And if I wanted, I could easily bring the weight back. Not even size, just bodyweight, because the size is already there. That aditional 30-35lbs are only fullness glycogen And intramuscular water not real muscle tissue

Okay, you know your body best, so I won't say anything. It's just that in the photos, you look full and loaded with glycogen. But if you say you could easily regain your former weight on a lower dose, that's fine, since you're confident of that after years of experience. What I want to ask is whether those high doses from the past actually helped build the lean, real tissue you have now. Unless the key is simply using GH and insulin—and IGF1—to reduce the overall AAS dose. You mentioned this once, and it seems like it's very important.

@Klax, That's exactly what I meant, maybe some of my sentences may sound strange because I'm writing from a translator, but I hope the context is generally understood.

 

[luki7788]

Luki, I agree with everything you're saying. But, I think what @kadafi2 is saying, is that when you say "For years. I was using around 150 IU of insulin per day, running trenbolone all year, 4+ grams per week. And what happened?" That's the dosage that got you to your current size that you can now modulate smaller doses and incremental changes in nutrition to go up and down in weight. But the "foundation" was created with super high doses.

That's not what I'm implying, or have concluded, but I believe that's what was being suggested by the previous poster.

So I suppose I'll add a question to that, Luki. Do you feel strongly that you could have reached your current size on a gram of total gear?

Okay, you know your body best, so I won't say anything. It's just that in the photos, you look full and loaded with glycogen. But if you say you could easily regain your former weight on a lower dose, that's fine, since you're confident of that after years of experience. What I want to ask is whether those high doses from the past actually helped build the lean, real tissue you have now. Unless the key is simply using GH and insulin—and IGF1—to reduce the overall AAS dose. You mentioned this once, and it seems like it's very important.

@Klax, That's exactly what I meant, maybe some of my sentences may sound strange because I'm writing from a translator, but I hope the context is generally understood.

No, I’m absolutely not saying I would achieve the same results on just 1 gram. But I definitely did not need 4 grams. I could have used much lower doses and still achieved it, especially with the knowledge I have today.

And I know this is realistic because I see it with my own clients. I coach them in a completely different way than I used to coach myself, and many of them have already surpassed me in size and overall development. Not just one guy, but many of them - And that matters. That says a lot.

 

[Dagmoon650]

I think the short answer is it varies person to person

The longer answer is it varies by compound: 1g of tren will make most people lose their shit and probably feel like crap rather quickly. 1g of DHB will have your HS-CRP so elevated you’ll be so inflamed and lethargic you won’t even want to get out of bed. 1g test makes most people feel great. Primo is pretty mild
Mg wise and is a good filler, mast is pretty mild mg wise and is a good filler, eq generally needs to be run higher due to ester weight and most people seem to tolerate it well, some don’t. Deca or NPP is pretty hit or miss

The more realistic answer is most people should be able to handle 2-3g relatively easy with maybe minimal support or ancillary compounds (assuming things like blood pressure and health markers remain normal)

Above 2-3g water retention starts to mount, things like sleep apnea become more noticeable, blood pressure gets considerably worse, inflammation is up, cholesterol and hemocrit likely start to become more of a heavy consideration. Of course there’s some people who can genetically just tolerate gear better and exceptions to the rule, but for the average person above 2-3g you really need a lot of ancillaries to keep the train going and even then it’s not really healthy. You’re just trying to minimize damage

You don’t feel like eq at a high dose crashes your estrogen?

 

[qbkilla]

But I want to be mid 200’s at single digit bf%

I’m beginning to even question the idea of “growing into a dose”. Was watching a podcast today where the participant was talking about how if you don’t have enough muscle cells to utilize the hormones, it’ll spill over into unwanted areas - I.e. just more side effects unless you have enough muscle to saturate but not “over saturate” leading to “overflow”… It was Todd Lee on Nyle’s podcast fyi.

I don’t think anybody really knows.

I believe your 170 right? Just curious..and i know the other thread touched on it...but why? You dieted down and have a nice lean physique...why not just have a goal to progress and grow...vs care about a number on a scale? Mid 30s adding that much food and aas to achieve that goal I'm sure you know is going to take a toll for your health. I just feel like your gonna start building...hit like 190 and look great...then keep going and sure weigh more but the look won't be as good. Serious question because we have been talking about him on the other thread...would you trade your physique for chase irons at his biggest? Or say you could look like frank zane or nick walker...who would you choose? Respect if you do want to be a mass monster and best of luck just curious why the goal to do that in the mid 30s. When I was younger I wanted that look as well but now in my 40s I feel like the trend for us older guys is to be leaner and look more athletic...maybe I'm biased though because when I was 240, 220 I was never happy I always envied the jacked guys and the slim ripped semi-muscular guys...I then realized i was neither...and of the 2...only 1 was realistic/achievable for me given my genetics and willingness or lack thereof of to push more food/gear lol

 

[Klax]

I believe your 170 right? Just curious..and i know the other thread touched on it...but why? You dieted down and have a nice lean physique...why not just have a goal to progress and grow...vs care about a number on a scale? Mid 30s adding that much food and aas to achieve that goal I'm sure you know is going to take a toll for your health. I just feel like your gonna start building...hit like 190 and look great...then keep going and sure weigh more but the look won't be as good. Serious question because we have been talking about him on the other thread...would you trade your physique for chase irons at his biggest? Or say you could look like frank zane or nick walker...who would you choose? Respect if you do want to be a mass monster and best of luck just curious why the goal to do that in the mid 30s. When I was younger I wanted that look as well but now in my 40s I feel like the trend for us older guys is to be leaner and look more athletic...maybe I'm biased though because when I was 240, 220 I was never happy I always envied the jacked guys and the slim ripped semi-muscular guys...I then realized i was neither...and of the 2...only 1 was realistic/achievable for me given my genetics and willingness or lack thereof of to push more food/gear lol

I'm sitting at 190 right now. I filled back up with 10lbs of depleted glycogen after I stopped cutting, and then I've added an additional 10lbs of water/muscle (maybe a tiny bit of fat) since then. Still have abs, so all is well. But I want to be clear - I'm not necessarily going for a number on the scale. I just know that at 6' tall, I need to have more weight on me to look how I want to look.

I'm definitely taking my time, but I also want to hit a physique in the next 5 years that I'm sure will be somewhere around 220lbs lean. I'm 34 right now. Once I hit 40, I'll probably dial it way back. But yea, I do have kids, family, career, the whole nine. So I'm also staying on top of my health. I plan on pushing both gear and food, but if I see health deteriorate or anything slide the wrong direction, I'm pulling it back. I'll either be able to tolerate it, or I won't. And I'm accepting of that. But no, I'm not going to sacrifice my health for vanity. Years ago I would have, but not these days. And yea, I'm aware that it's highly likely that I won't be able to tolerate it at my age, but I'm going to find out.

 

[qbkilla]

I'm sitting at 190 right now. I filled back up with 10lbs of depleted glycogen after I stopped cutting, and then I've added an additional 10lbs of water/muscle (maybe a tiny bit of fat) since then. Still have abs, so all is well. But I want to be clear - I'm not necessarily going for a number on the scale. I just know that at 6' tall, I need to have more weight on me to look how I want to look.

I'm definitely taking my time, but I also want to hit a physique in the next 5 years that I'm sure will be somewhere around 220lbs lean. I'm 34 right now. Once I hit 40, I'll probably dial it way back. But yea, I do have kids, family, career, the whole nine. So I'm also staying on top of my health. I plan on pushing both gear and food, but if I see health deteriorate or anything slide the wrong direction, I'm pulling it back. I'll either be able to tolerate it, or I won't. And I'm accepting of that. But no, I'm not going to sacrifice my health for vanity. Years ago I would have, but not these days. And yea, I'm aware that it's highly likely that I won't be able to tolerate it at my age, but I'm going to find out.

Good luck and I think that will be key, knowing when something is off to slow down. I know for me the last time I pushed gear and food ...I was about 35..I said I'd try 1 more "bulk" ...went from 175 to 195 easily with a little surplus..stil was "lean" to most standards but my bp crept up and had some sort of palpitations...so I decided to stop and come back down. Looking back at the picks..eventhough I didn't add much fat just the water and thicker abdomen...not the best look for me. Will be following to see your progress don't neglect the cardio!

 

[plane]

But I want to be mid 200’s at single digit bf%

I’m beginning to even question the idea of “growing into a dose”. Was watching a podcast today where the participant was talking about how if you don’t have enough muscle cells to utilize the hormones, it’ll spill over into unwanted areas - I.e. just more side effects unless you have enough muscle to saturate but not “over saturate” leading to “overflow”… It was Todd Lee on Nyle’s podcast fyi.

I don’t think anybody really knows.

Stay on for years and years - you build real muscle tissue that way. Even cruising at 20mg test a day for periods of time, or 250mg here and there, sometimes stay on 500mg test year round. Eventually you end up where you want to be, always on.

When i have came off, going back into dosages at 1g/wk = blow up fast, but the tissue quality is NOT there.

the tissue quality is just staying on + consistent training, for years.

People simulate that quality muscle density by running a shit ton of DHTs and blast grams of gear - thats how you LOOK like that fast, but it does just come with time, even on 'low dosages'.

If you're LEAN, you can blow up lean lol, its true, gh15 advice but its quality advice...

Alot of members here and actually VERY jaded about HOW to get there - other than coaches like luki

This is because, we stay on for YEARS and its been a decade and we ALWAYS look good/lean - once you come off for well over a year completely, do not train or do anything - START AGAIN, thats when you get a better picture of what a noob needs to do.

People here are not newbs, so the advice given to newbs is flawed.

I'd run stuff like 50mg tren ace a day 125mg sustanon per day - ran for a year straight.

After that period of time i dropped to something like 200mg test cyp 200mg deca - guess what?

still looked quality lol, physique didnt really even diminish.. once you're there, you're kind of there.

NOW i came off for 1 year 6 months or more, didnt eat or train or diet like a bodybuilder at all. Had a horrible lifestyle with more partying than i usually did, and i partied alot already. (retard)

Trained naturally for 2 months, blew up in weight - hopped on some dbol for 3 weeks, more weight. added test and deca (5 weeks in) more weight.

140lb to 220lb fast. Muscle memory? yeah, but is the quality there like before? NO

Why? no constant exposure, i had been off gear for so long my tissue is not the same.

So what you need is time, and dont ever quit bodybuilding lol.. your goals are easily done, no need to hamster or learn too much else, just take care of your health is the most important part and never quit.

I was a big believer in muscle memory, didnt care about losing muscle - its true the body does remember set weights, my strength came back week after week RAPIDLY, but again the quality tissue that only comes from being exposed long term to all aspects of bodybuilding is just not going to come quickly, regardless of DOSAGE..

You can simulate it, pretend - blast dhts, get the 'aging' going.. but it will fuck you up

We all know people who after a decade using AAS, they can LOOK the same on just test and gh as someone whos running 8 compounds in a prep who is newer to bodybuilding.

thats the secret to it all lol, we're all jaded and forget, we run gear and train for most of our lives lol

 

[Zamun]

Stay on for years and years - you build real muscle tissue that way. Even cruising at 20mg test a day for periods of time, or 250mg here and there, sometimes stay on 500mg test year round. Eventually you end up where you want to be, always on.

When i have came off, going back into dosages at 1g/wk = blow up fast, but the tissue quality is NOT there.

the tissue quality is just staying on + consistent training, for years.

People simulate that quality muscle density by running a shit ton of DHTs and blast grams of gear - thats how you LOOK like that fast, but it does just come with time, even on 'low dosages'.

If you're LEAN, you can blow up lean lol, its true, gh15 advice but its quality advice...

Alot of members here and actually VERY jaded about HOW to get there - other than coaches like luki

This is because, we stay on for YEARS and its been a decade and we ALWAYS look good/lean - once you come off for well over a year completely, do not train or do anything - START AGAIN, thats when you get a better picture of what a noob needs to do.

People here are not newbs, so the advice given to newbs is flawed.

I'd run stuff like 50mg tren ace a day 125mg sustanon per day - ran for a year straight.

After that period of time i dropped to something like 200mg test cyp 200mg deca - guess what?

still looked quality lol, physique didnt really even diminish.. once you're there, you're kind of there.

NOW i came off for 1 year 6 months or more, didnt eat or train or diet like a bodybuilder at all. Had a horrible lifestyle with more partying than i usually did, and i partied alot already. (retard)

Trained naturally for 2 months, blew up in weight - hopped on some dbol for 3 weeks, more weight. added test and deca (5 weeks in) more weight.

140lb to 220lb fast. Muscle memory? yeah, but is the quality there like before? NO

Why? no constant exposure, i had been off gear for so long my tissue is not the same.

So what you need is time, and dont ever quit bodybuilding lol.. your goals are easily done, no need to hamster or learn too much else, just take care of your health is the most important part and never quit.

I was a big believer in muscle memory, didnt care about losing muscle - its true the body does remember set weights, my strength came back week after week RAPIDLY, but again the quality tissue that only comes from being exposed long term to all aspects of bodybuilding is just not going to come quickly, regardless of DOSAGE..

You can simulate it, pretend - blast dhts, get the 'aging' going.. but it will fuck you up

We all know people who after a decade using AAS, they can LOOK the same on just test and gh as someone whos running 8 compounds in a prep who is newer to bodybuilding.

thats the secret to it all lol, we're all jaded and forget, we run gear and train for most of our lives lol

I remember reading a post from @NorwegianMuscle stating the same thing. Staying on builds the quality look.

 

[dieselbuilder]

Stay on for years and years - you build real muscle tissue that way. Even cruising at 20mg test a day for periods of time, or 250mg here and there, sometimes stay on 500mg test year round. Eventually you end up where you want to be, always on.

When i have came off, going back into dosages at 1g/wk = blow up fast, but the tissue quality is NOT there.

the tissue quality is just staying on + consistent training, for years.

People simulate that quality muscle density by running a shit ton of DHTs and blast grams of gear - thats how you LOOK like that fast, but it does just come with time, even on 'low dosages'.

If you're LEAN, you can blow up lean lol, its true, gh15 advice but its quality advice...

Alot of members here and actually VERY jaded about HOW to get there - other than coaches like luki

This is because, we stay on for YEARS and its been a decade and we ALWAYS look good/lean - once you come off for well over a year completely, do not train or do anything - START AGAIN, thats when you get a better picture of what a noob needs to do.

People here are not newbs, so the advice given to newbs is flawed.

I'd run stuff like 50mg tren ace a day 125mg sustanon per day - ran for a year straight.

After that period of time i dropped to something like 200mg test cyp 200mg deca - guess what?

still looked quality lol, physique didnt really even diminish.. once you're there, you're kind of there.

NOW i came off for 1 year 6 months or more, didnt eat or train or diet like a bodybuilder at all. Had a horrible lifestyle with more partying than i usually did, and i partied alot already. (retard)

Trained naturally for 2 months, blew up in weight - hopped on some dbol for 3 weeks, more weight. added test and deca (5 weeks in) more weight.

140lb to 220lb fast. Muscle memory? yeah, but is the quality there like before? NO

Why? no constant exposure, i had been off gear for so long my tissue is not the same.

So what you need is time, and dont ever quit bodybuilding lol.. your goals are easily done, no need to hamster or learn too much else, just take care of your health is the most important part and never quit.

I was a big believer in muscle memory, didnt care about losing muscle - its true the body does remember set weights, my strength came back week after week RAPIDLY, but again the quality tissue that only comes from being exposed long term to all aspects of bodybuilding is just not going to come quickly, regardless of DOSAGE..

You can simulate it, pretend - blast dhts, get the 'aging' going.. but it will fuck you up

We all know people who after a decade using AAS, they can LOOK the same on just test and gh as someone whos running 8 compounds in a prep who is newer to bodybuilding.

thats the secret to it all lol, we're all jaded and forget, we run gear and train for most of our lives lol

That’s a fact. I hadn’t really lifted much nor used any AAS for like 8 years (was running a highly demanding business) but before that I didn’t miss a workout for 10 years (teens to late 20s) and I had done 2 cycles of 250mg of test per week.. I respond very well to AAS and lifting. Even natural I had decent size.

Anyway when I got back on I had been lifting and training BJJ for a year and when I got back on AAS and it was like I transformed over night.

I stopped lifting a year ago to keep my shoulders minty for BJJ and I look like I did before. I just train BJJ 4x per week and I go hard so it’s not like I am sitting around.

I run test anywhere from 3-500 EW, EQ 80-200 EW and low dose deca 100mg EW.

Muscle memory is wild!

 

[SouthernMuscle]

140lb to 220lb fast.

Is that real shit, 140lbs!?