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How much gear is too much? The REAL point of diminishing returns

I remember reading a post from @NorwegianMuscle stating the same thing. Staying on builds the quality look.
True and I want to point out some very important information and thread by @luki7788 that everyone needs to consider for your health and growth that will work for you in your training. This is all true and I've been there and done that ;)

@luki7788 I keep trying to explain this and I write about it everywhere, because it’s a fact. Constantly increasing doses will not give you more growth. There is a certain dose that maximizes gains, and that’s it. You won’t increase protein synthesis forever and you won’t speed up recovery beyond a certain point.

At some point you pass the line of diminishing returns. You take more and all you get are more side effects. And paradoxically your results get worse than they were on lower doses. Why? Because side effects start to mess everything up. Digestion gets worse, you start feeling bad all the time, you can’t train optimally anymore. And training is the most important factor for hypertrophy and growth. Health problems also start to show up, your body works less efficiently, and the higher you go, the worse it usually gets.
Of course many people keep pushing and taking even more, thinking it will somehow get better. It won’t. It only gets worse. You can believe me, because I’ve been there and I did it. For years I was close to 4 grams total. For years. I was using around 150 IU of insulin per day, running trenbolone all year, 4+ grams per week. And what happened?

Today I can stay under 1 gram most of the time. Even now, in my current push phase, call it a cycle if you want, I’m on about 1750 mg total, test + masteron + primo, and I’m growing. I’m making real progress to be honest even when I run around 1g I still have a progress just now I want a litlle bit more for 10-12 week then I will back to around 1g and I'm sure that I will still continiue some small improvments. In the past, when I was taking 4g+, I didn't believe that I could grow on it - back then I claimed that I needed 2g+ to maintain what I had lol I was very wrong and today I admit it - I'm not ashamed of my mistakes and errors because I'm only human.

The same logic applies to food. If you think 8000 calories will give you better growth, that’s not true. You can gain 20, 30, 40 pounds in the offseason, but when you diet down for a show, you’ll still end up maybe 2–3 kg heavier on stage. So what’s the point of abusing your body, increasing inflammation, ruining insulin sensitivity, worsening cholesterol, destroying gut health with massive calories and massive protein intake, if you can grow slowly on a small surplus?
After a year, you’ll still be maybe 10 pounds above your stage weight in the offseason, and you’ll still build the same 2–3 kg of muscle in a year. And 2–3 kg of real muscle is a lot. The guy who gained 40 pounds in the offseason and dieted down ends up in the same place as you: also 2–3 kg more muscle.
 
I keep trying to explain this and I write about it everywhere, because it’s a fact. Constantly increasing doses will not give you more growth. There is a certain dose that maximizes gains, and that’s it. You won’t increase protein synthesis forever and you won’t speed up recovery beyond a certain point.

At some point you pass the line of diminishing returns. You take more and all you get are more side effects. And paradoxically your results get worse than they were on lower doses. Why? Because side effects start to mess everything up. Digestion gets worse, you start feeling bad all the time, you can’t train optimally anymore. And training is the most important factor for hypertrophy and growth. Health problems also start to show up, your body works less efficiently, and the higher you go, the worse it usually gets.
Of course many people keep pushing and taking even more, thinking it will somehow get better. It won’t. It only gets worse. You can believe me, because I’ve been there and I did it. For years I was close to 4 grams total. For years. I was using around 150 IU of insulin per day, running trenbolone all year, 4+ grams per week. And what happened?

Today I can stay under 1 gram most of the time. Even now, in my current push phase, call it a cycle if you want, I’m on about 1750 mg total, test + masteron + primo, and I’m growing. I’m making real progress to be honest even when I run around 1g I still have a progress just now I want a litlle bit more for 10-12 week then I will back to around 1g and I'm sure that I will still continiue some small improvments. In the past, when I was taking 4g+, I didn't believe that I could grow on it - back then I claimed that I needed 2g+ to maintain what I had lol I was very wrong and today I admit it - I'm not ashamed of my mistakes and errors because I'm only human.

The same logic applies to food. If you think 8000 calories will give you better growth, that’s not true. You can gain 20, 30, 40 pounds in the offseason, but when you diet down for a show, you’ll still end up maybe 2–3 kg heavier on stage. So what’s the point of abusing your body, increasing inflammation, ruining insulin sensitivity, worsening cholesterol, destroying gut health with massive calories and massive protein intake, if you can grow slowly on a small surplus?
After a year, you’ll still be maybe 10 pounds above your stage weight in the offseason, and you’ll still build the same 2–3 kg of muscle in a year. And 2–3 kg of real muscle is a lot. The guy who gained 40 pounds in the offseason and dieted down ends up in the same place as you: also 2–3 kg more muscle.

I’ve been there. I’ve done it. That’s how it works.
Many other very experienced people have the same experience. And honestly, most people won’t listen unless they’ve been there themselves and gone through it the hard way.
Oh Jesus, this is making my head spin 😅
But what’s the right amount of weight to gain in the offseason?
Like +10 lbs / 5.5 kg over stage weight?
If that’s the case, that’s honestly pretty easy to hit — and without a ton of gear or stuffing yourself with food.
I’ve never been a big eater, so for me it wasn’t a problem.
I was always like +10 kg over my end-of-cut bodyweight.
But I was just kinda doing it randomly… had no real idea what I was doing.
 
I can't say milligram amounts because they will vary individually....but if your appetite diminishes, your tired, feeling lethargic, sleep is garbage, training is suffering, it's time to adjust dosages. You're heading in the wrong direction.
 

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