How much gear is too much? The REAL point of diminishing returns

[massephase]

Bostin Loyd RIP got up to 13 grams at some point, said didn't gain anything out of it. JP got up to 6+ grams a week and said it wasn't needed, and could have gotten the same results with maybe half as much. On this board RsMainz got up to 8 grams and said the sides greatly outweigh the results and how his body was stressed and couldn't progress smoothly.

Do you notice that all of them are/ were huge though?

An interesting correlation, to say the least

 

[massephase]

once that’s done just do it and don’t overthink

My best progress came when I did that, whether following someone elses or my own plan. Just hammer it, don't think about it. Think about it from time to time, make an adjustment, then forget about it and just keep hammering it. A lot of things were totally suboptimal, but I ended up with a lot of gains that way.

 

[traininsane11]

Do you notice that all of them are/ were huge though?

An interesting correlation, to say the least

Ironically the 1 out of the 3 that used the least was night and day wayyyyy bigger

 

[stackdizzy]

The truth is some need more some need less. Everyone seems to want everyone to like what they do but its for them and you got to figure that shit out for yourself.

 

[Fleezy]

Wasent Gavin Kane on of the guys behind the oxy with dbol theory ?

Yes

The ‘adenoma cocktail’

 

[Jefe]

Wasent Gavin Kane on of the guys behind the oxy with dbol theory ?

I don’t remember. I think things turned bad at the end. I just remember him being a big deal back in the day?

 

[qbkilla]

For those who use big dosages and push high calories, when do you determine one or the other needs to be bumped up to continue progress? Say your at 2.5 g 5k calories..growing but then stall...how do you determine if you will increase gear, food, or both?

 

[SABAGOY]

For those who use big dosages and push high calories, when do you determine one or the other needs to be bumped up to continue progress? Say your at 2.5 g 5k calories..growing but then stall...how do you determine if you will increase gear, food, or both?

I don’t think it’s specific to only “big doses”…but I say body composition determines this…if I am remaining lean or at “acceptable composition” I would push food first…if body composition is slowly starting to decline…probably time to increase the dosages if the plan is to continue pushing for growth for a while longer.

On the original topic…I have never reached a point of diminishing returns as far as total mgs…more has always yielded better results for me…but have reached points of diminishing returns with specific compounds.

 

[kadafi2]

I see that the topic of Dan Duchaine (RIP) and his theory of opening a new growth path through massive doses has been brought up. Note that Dan wasn't referring to the sum of all the substances taken, but rather believed that testosterone—as a bioidentical hormone, in doses of around 4 grams—could open this new path. It wasn't about overdosing on substances to exceed 4 grams. According to him, testosterone has unique properties, likely not fully understood until now, that make it a unique hormone. This is a very important aspect of his theory.

Personally, I don't really believe this. Since genetics are different for everyone, why would around 4 grams open new growth, and not 3 grams or 5 grams? It's very unclear, but it's just a theory, and let's leave it at that. I suspect that successful experiments with this theory are nothing more than testing your body, where it turns out it can handle such a high dose and grow, breaking another genetic boundary, but it has nothing to do with some new, special path. Just my two cents.

Furthermore, you mentioned the massive doses of Bostin Lloyd (RIP) and Jordan Peters, but there was no mention of Craig Titus. Dante wrote a long time ago that he took around 13-15 grams total, including over 5 grams of testosterone as a base. I can't find the original post, only this:

I absolutely 100% agree with that....Titus told me himself what he was taking...and my jaw hit the floor....I paused and thought he was going to say "im just joking bro".....he wasnt.

Over 5 grams of testosterone a week and 11-13 other steroids/gh/insulin/nubain in large amounts....it was ridiculous.

So, I don't think anyone can top him. It's unbelievable that his body could handle something like that. It's just strange that he wasn't mentioned in the mega-dosing thread.

The general summary of this topic is quite simple: everyone has a different limit of diminishing returns. The problem is that most people prefer to take more rather than less, just "just in case." Some people grow out of it, others don't, some are forced into it by health reasons, and it varies.

And in bodybuilding, you have to hit EVERYTHING on target.
- You can't eat too little protein and carbohydrates, or you won't grow. You can't eat too much, or you'll overload your body and have the opposite effect.
- You can't exercise too much and too hard, or you'll overwork yourself. You could even get injured, touch wood. But you can't exercise too lightly either, or it won't help.
- You can't sleep too much, or you'll just get sluggish, but you can't sleep too little, or your body will eventually demand rest.
- And it's the same with equipment. Taking too little doesn't make sense because you're already damaging your health, so make it worth it, but too much... is also bad. It's all a matter of trial and error, and experimenting with how much of each we need in each aspect. There's no one-size-fits-all solution.

I was so inspired, and I had to share it.

 

[Maly]

Interesting ideas. Some people claim they grow on very small doses, but most of us don't see much from that. When I tried higher amounts (as in 1.5g - 2g with orals), the difference compared to lower doses was huge. I don't believe you can avoid increasing doses forever, most people need more as they get bigger, and I feel like most of the bigger guys reached their size during their "no fucks given experimentation" phase.

I still plan to experiment for myself after New Year's since my bloodwork has been fine so far. I don't buy the claims from people saying they use tiny doses at huge bodyweights, but who knows, maybe they're genetic freaks and I'm not.

In the end, it's just numbers. Some people tolerate high doses with few to no sides, others will get all sides on even 500mg/week. Everyone has to learn how their own body responds and what works for them.
I'm already older, and I don't want to look back later and regret not pushing myself or trying things for myself. I don't want to be stuck wondering "what if."


Interesting excerpt

 

[bbxtreme]

Interesting ideas. Some people claim they grow on very small doses, but most of us don't see much from that. When I tried higher amounts (as in 1.5g - 2g with orals), the difference compared to lower doses was huge. I don't believe you can avoid increasing doses forever, most people need more as they get bigger, and I feel like most of the bigger guys reached their size during their "no fucks given experimentation" phase.

I still plan to experiment for myself after New Year's since my bloodwork has been fine so far. I don't buy the claims from people saying they use tiny doses at huge bodyweights, but who knows, maybe they're genetic freaks and I'm not.

In the end, it's just numbers. Some people tolerate high doses with few to no sides, others will get all sides on even 500mg/week. Everyone has to learn how their own body responds and what works for them.
I'm already older, and I don't want to look back later and regret not pushing myself or trying things for myself. I don't want to be stuck wondering "what if."


Interesting excerpt

View attachment 242820

I don’t think rule #7 has aged very well.

 

[luki7788]

I don’t think rule #7 has aged very well.

I say this: most people who take massive gear doses might not drop dead and might not have crazy side effects, but they also don’t look like people who take those doses.

The funny thing is, the best guys don’t necessarily take “small” amounts, but they use moderate amounts and have everything else maxed out training, diet, recovery. That’s what actually creates real progress, not just pushing the doses higher and higher.

I been there. I was on almost 5 grams of gear. Now I’m on 1 gram, and looking back, to reach what I had on 4.5–5 grams, I’d probably need maybe half of that in the real world.

 

[Goodfella1988]

Want the real answer? Not enough! There’s real fcking answer! Now go get jacked

 

[MajinBoo]

I say this: most people who take massive gear doses might not drop dead and might not have crazy side effects, but they also don’t look like people who take those doses.

The funny thing is, the best guys don’t necessarily take “small” amounts, but they use moderate amounts and have everything else maxed out training, diet, recovery. That’s what actually creates real progress, not just pushing the doses higher and higher.

I been there. I was on almost 5 grams of gear. Now I’m on 1 gram, and looking back, to reach what I had on 4.5–5 grams, I’d probably need maybe half of that in the real world.

But I believe you were also maxim out training, diet and recovery alongside higher doses. What I believe is that with 3gr you would reach same size but it would take a longer - which can have its advantages and less health impact. I dont know for sure... What I am almost sure is that you would not reach your muscle size and density using what you are using now.

 

[luki7788]

But I believe you were also maxim out training, diet and recovery alongside higher doses. What I believe is that with 3gr you would reach same size but it would take a longer - which can have its advantages and less health impact. I dont know for sure... What I am almost sure is that you would not reach your muscle size and density using what you are using now.

Of course but definitely not need the 3g+ to do that - I 100% with my all experience what I have in this moment I will not need more than 2500-3000mg max and not in long periods but only when really pushing max dosage in couple weeks of whole year

 

[Flex500]

Interesting ideas. Some people claim they grow on very small doses, but most of us don't see much from that. When I tried higher amounts (as in 1.5g - 2g with orals), the difference compared to lower doses was huge. I don't believe you can avoid increasing doses forever, most people need more as they get bigger, and I feel like most of the bigger guys reached their size during their "no fucks given experimentation" phase.

I still plan to experiment for myself after New Year's since my bloodwork has been fine so far. I don't buy the claims from people saying they use tiny doses at huge bodyweights, but who knows, maybe they're genetic freaks and I'm not.

In the end, it's just numbers. Some people tolerate high doses with few to no sides, others will get all sides on even 500mg/week. Everyone has to learn how their own body responds and what works for them.
I'm already older, and I don't want to look back later and regret not pushing myself or trying things for myself. I don't want to be stuck wondering "what if."


Interesting excerpt

View attachment 242820

"a caricature of caution"...reads this as I up my dose to 40mgs of test a day and get bloodwork done every two weeks because my HDL dropped from 81 to 79 and now scared I'm going to have a heart attack.

Only slightly exaggerating but that is definitely me

 

[traininsane11]

In keeping with this thread

 

[TheOtherOne55]

In keeping with this thread

Jason is a member here. @Pinkton

 

[hawkmoon]

This thread is drifting this way as they always do, but it is so incredibly individual I don't think there will ever be a broad answer for these questions. Each person will have their own number.
It's genetics - it always was and it always will be. No training, eating, or PEDs will change that.

Watching Yokokawa get his pro card while being a well known (and self professed) complete idiot and I think having very, very little PED experience just drove it home again.

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[M@NU]

This thread is drifting this way as they always do, but it is so incredibly individual I don't think there will ever be a broad answer for these questions. Each person will have their own number.
It's genetics - it always was and it always will be. No training, eating, or PEDs will change that.

Watching Yokokawa get his pro card while being a well known (and self professed) complete idiot and I think having very, very little PED experience just drove it home again.

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you know, being a complete idiot and having absolutely no knowledge about PEDs doesnt mean he does not take a bootload of them.
in some cases it means the complete opposite since those complete idiots care less about their health (or lets phrase it this way.. they dont "overthink" their health)