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How much gear is too much? The REAL point of diminishing returns

you know, being a complete idiot and having absolutely no knowledge about PEDs doesnt mean he does not take a bootload of them.
in some cases it means the complete opposite since those complete idiots care less about their health (or lets phrase it this way.. they dont "overthink" their health)
I am in no way saying one leads to the other, or the opposite.
He is an idiot as evidenced by his brief TV career here and some of his interviews. It's unrelated to bodybuilding, He's so stupid funny that it has endeared him to his fans.

Yokokawa competed in a tested org, the JBBF up until this year, and I do believe (yes I do) that he was very likely natural until he made his move.
They are very serious about their drug free status. It's almost cult-like. I competed in the org once long ago.

He hasn't progressed that much in the 6 year hiatus since, before competing in a "dark side" IFBB-affiliate org just recently. Everything was there.
He is a freak, the kind we rarely see. His muscle bellies tell the story.

A boatload of drugs will not make an average bodybuilder great. It just won't.

I'll take an unpopular stance here. If you don't look like a goddamn freak at 2g of gear, you won't at 3, nor at 4.
If you keep pushing you'll look like someone very unhealthy. Big, lumpy, red-faced, acne-ridden and loaded with water and gasping for breath.

Genetics are everything. Drugs cannot overcome genetics. You will - or should - know when you are at your productive limit.
Progress slows or stops. Sides continue to pile up, everyday life becomes more difficult. You feel terrible all the time.

JBBF - 2019, and yes, natural IMO. Note he's only about 76kg at 170cm here. I think he competed in the upper 80s when he got his card last month.
横川尚隆 大会写真.png
 
I am in no way saying one leads to the other, or the opposite.
He is an idiot as evidenced by his brief TV career here and some of his interviews. It's unrelated to bodybuilding, He's so stupid funny that it has endeared him to his fans.

Yokokawa competed in a tested org, the JBBF up until this year, and I do believe (yes I do) that he was very likely natural until he made his move.
They are very serious about their drug free status. It's almost cult-like. I competed in the org once long ago.

He hasn't progressed that much in the 6 year hiatus since, before competing in a "dark side" IFBB-affiliate org just recently. Everything was there.
He is a freak, the kind we rarely see. His muscle bellies tell the story.

A boatload of drugs will not make an average bodybuilder great. It just won't.

I'll take an unpopular stance here. If you don't look like a goddamn freak at 2g of gear, you won't at 3, nor at 4.
If you keep pushing you'll look like someone very unhealthy. Big, lumpy, red-faced, acne-ridden and loaded with water and gasping for breath.

Genetics are everything. Drugs cannot overcome genetics. You will - or should - know when you are at your productive limit.
Progress slows or stops. Sides continue to pile up, everyday life becomes more difficult. You feel terrible all the time.

JBBF - 2019, and yes, natural IMO. Note he's only about 76kg at 170cm here. I think he competed in the upper 80s when he got his card last month.
View attachment 243179
i know that genetics overrule anything, just wanted to point out that being dumb =! using low drugs.
but now i got your post, you didnt mean to link those two points together.
I would go further and say genetics + your childhood decide quite a lot about your future you.
My family didnt care about sports or nutrition when i grew up. I didnt do any sports apart from school sports which ive missed 50% of the times until ive started the BB journey 16 years ago.
My nutrition until 20 consisted of noodles + ketchup, Pringles hot and spicy, COla (not light/zero) and occasionaly some fatty sausage. my daily protein was probably around 35g..
Then when ive started studying in a bigger city with 19, ive compared myself to all the other guys in my age and saw that, compared to them, ive looked like a fat 13 year old kid. This was more or less a wake-up call but i am sure the time until then did a lot of damage, apart from sub-par genetics..
 
you know, being a complete idiot and having absolutely no knowledge about PEDs doesnt mean he does not take a bootload of them.
in some cases it means the complete opposite since those complete idiots care less about their health (or lets phrase it this way.. they dont "overthink" their health)
I read "being a complete idiot and having know knowledge about PEDs" as someone who takes a lot of them tbh
 
I think the short answer is it varies person to person

The longer answer is it varies by compound: 1g of tren will make most people lose their shit and probably feel like crap rather quickly. 1g of DHB will have your HS-CRP so elevated you’ll be so inflamed and lethargic you won’t even want to get out of bed. 1g test makes most people feel great. Primo is pretty mild
Mg wise and is a good filler, mast is pretty mild mg wise and is a good filler, eq generally needs to be run higher due to ester weight and most people seem to tolerate it well, some don’t. Deca or NPP is pretty hit or miss

The more realistic answer is most people should be able to handle 2-3g relatively easy with maybe minimal support or ancillary compounds (assuming things like blood pressure and health markers remain normal)

Above 2-3g water retention starts to mount, things like sleep apnea become more noticeable, blood pressure gets considerably worse, inflammation is up, cholesterol and hemocrit likely start to become more of a heavy consideration. Of course there’s some people who can genetically just tolerate gear better and exceptions to the rule, but for the average person above 2-3g you really need a lot of ancillaries to keep the train going and even then it’s not really healthy. You’re just trying to minimize damage
I must have pretty weak gear handling genetics because anything over a gram total wrecks me with inflammation, water retention, BP, lethargy and I need lots of ancillaries 😂
I wish I could just casually run 3g
 
No matter the stack design? damn.
Yeah, took me a couple years to realize this. “I’m only running a gram total” and whether it’s primo or tren in there, I don’t do well.
Now I stick to very low doses and I don’t know if I’ll blast again

Sucks because IMO my muscle/strength genetics are great. I was a lean 220lbs and deadlifted 700lbs natural, but I just can’t handle gear. But I digress
 
I must have pretty weak gear handling genetics because anything over a gram total wrecks me with inflammation, water retention, BP, lethargy and I need lots of ancillaries 😂
I wish I could just casually run 3g
What type of carrier oils and solvent level is your gear. I know a lot of guys taken high doses and feel like shit but love being big.
 
Yeah, took me a couple years to realize this. “I’m only running a gram total” and whether it’s primo or tren in there, I don’t do well.
Now I stick to very low doses and I don’t know if I’ll blast again

Sucks because IMO my muscle/strength genetics are great. I was a lean 220lbs and deadlifted 700lbs natural, but I just can’t handle gear. But I digress
At that point you really don’t need to even push it.

Even with low/moderate doses you’re still one of the strongest dudes here—thinking I remember you rowing 500lbs for reps or doing 4 plate incline/shoulder presses. All that on moderate doses is incredible.

Plus iirc you’re a firefighter? So you need a functional level of fitness as well. At that point I could see how 3g would be counterintuitive, even detrimental towards your career
 
Yeah, took me a couple years to realize this. “I’m only running a gram total” and whether it’s primo or tren in there, I don’t do well.
Now I stick to very low doses and I don’t know if I’ll blast again

Sucks because IMO my muscle/strength genetics are great. I was a lean 220lbs and deadlifted 700lbs natural, but I just can’t handle gear. But I digress
I think it’s a bit more nuanced than that, lol. I have no idea what good health genetics means exactly as it pertains to this endeavor of bodybuilding. I needed a BP med since going on at 21. No matter how much cardio i do, or how lean i get

Yet, my grandparents lived to be in their 80’s. Only one didn’t, and it was cancer. Unfortunately, I have no idea if my bp is genetic prior to going on or not
 
At my very biggest I attributed it mostly to the strength I had built up! Even at a natural I was the strongest guy on my highschool football team, at my biggest on juice at a bodyweight of around 230 (where I was most offseasons and had a max offseason of around 252 lbs at 5ft5 I was hitting 405lbs for 7 reps on incline barbell, 585 for 12 on squats and 585 for 12 on deadlifts. Gear wise was always a gram of test was my base and I would add about 600mg of eq with it with some tren acetate of anywhere from 50mg to 100mg daily, this was me pushing it, I didn't handle tren very well all the time thus the discrepancy in dosage. Nandrolones were always a no go for me as I just couldn't handle it well, of course I tried higher dosages but the above doses is where I felt and performed the best at. I rarely ever went OFF, I would cruise at 500 test and 250-300 of eq but not for long, this was when I was balls deep into bodybuilding. I always and still believed my base of strength was my ace in the hole, plus I was an eating machine back then and had zero digestive issues.
I was a HUGE DOGGCRAPP fan back in those day and getting brutally strong was my #1 goal and it gave me a thick fucking physique.
 
At my very biggest I attributed it mostly to the strength I had built up! Even at a natural I was the strongest guy on my highschool football team, at my biggest on juice at a bodyweight of around 230 (where I was most offseasons and had a max offseason of around 252 lbs at 5ft5 I was hitting 405lbs for 7 reps on incline barbell, 585 for 12 on squats and 585 for 12 on deadlifts. Gear wise was always a gram of test was my base and I would add about 600mg of eq with it with some tren acetate of anywhere from 50mg to 100mg daily, this was me pushing it, I didn't handle tren very well all the time thus the discrepancy in dosage. Nandrolones were always a no go for me as I just couldn't handle it well, of course I tried higher dosages but the above doses is where I felt and performed the best at. I rarely ever went OFF, I would cruise at 500 test and 250-300 of eq but not for long, this was when I was balls deep into bodybuilding. I always and still believed my base of strength was my ace in the hole, plus I was an eating machine back then and had zero digestive issues.
I was a HUGE DOGGCRAPP fan back in those day and getting brutally strong was my #1 goal and it gave me a thick fucking physique.
A sub 240 man with an incline max close to 500 is gnarly lol
 
Yeah, took me a couple years to realize this. “I’m only running a gram total” and whether it’s primo or tren in there, I don’t do well.
Now I stick to very low doses and I don’t know if I’ll blast again

Sucks because IMO my muscle/strength genetics are great. I was a lean 220lbs and deadlifted 700lbs natural, but I just can’t handle gear. But I digress

Thats a really impressive natural point, How were the results off of your first cycle and what was your first cycles? How educated and well did you execute diet and training to get to 220 and a 700lbs naturally? Sounds like you have some great genetics for being strong and big


Maybe you could find a setup where you can leverage more gh, insulin and sprinkle in some short esters or orals and adjust when you feel things going south. Im just brainstorming here :)
 
This thread is drifting this way as they always do, but it is so incredibly individual I don't think there will ever be a broad answer for these questions. Each person will have their own number.
It's genetics - it always was and it always will be. No training, eating, or PEDs will change that.

Watching Yokokawa get his pro card while being a well known (and self professed) complete idiot and I think having very, very little PED experience just drove it home again.

 

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What type of carrier oils and solvent level is your gear. I know a lot of guys taken high doses and feel like shit but love being big.
Honestly not sure, but I’ve used Direct for years now, so whatever he puts in there. But that’s where I was for a while, loved being big and just put up with feeling like shit.

At that point you really don’t need to even push it.

Even with low/moderate doses you’re still one of the strongest dudes here—thinking I remember you rowing 500lbs for reps or doing 4 plate incline/shoulder presses. All that on moderate doses is incredible.

Plus iirc you’re a firefighter? So you need a functional level of fitness as well. At that point I could see how 3g would be counterintuitive, even detrimental towards your career
Yep, that’s correct, the 495x8 row and 405 seated shoulder press videos can be found in the pic you took today thread. I’m doing a low dose “blast” right now of 140mg test and 100mg tren hex, and honestly less is more for me right now. I slimmed down on purpose over the summer to be more mobile and athletic for firefighting, and I still repped out the 180s on incline bench for sets of 10, 12 plates per side hack squats for 10, 10 plate t-bar rows. I lost a little strength but gaining it all back while being 40lbs lighter and on way lower doses. I think you’re right, I don’t need to push it anymore. I got so big that it was impacting my job performance and overall felt and looked unhealthy. I look ten years younger than I did last year. My biggest blast ever was a year ago when I did 300mg test and ramped tren from 350 to 700 and even 900 for a week. Gravity turned off and my strength and physique was ridiculous, but I was very unhealthy.
For me now, low doses, staying light (no bigger than 230), and functional workouts added in (hyrox wods, FFer gear workouts, running, rucking, weight vest Stairmaster), calisthenics

I feel a million times better going down to TRT/very low doses

I think it’s a bit more nuanced than that, lol. I have no idea what good health genetics means exactly as it pertains to this endeavor of bodybuilding. I needed a BP med since going on at 21. No matter how much cardio i do, or how lean i get

Yet, my grandparents lived to be in their 80’s. Only one didn’t, and it was cancer. Unfortunately, I have no idea if my bp is genetic prior to going on or not
My grandparents are still alive at close to 100 years old, both sides, and several great uncles are in their 90s and still downing a bottle of whiskey and a pack of cigs a day. So I have pretty good health genetics too.
But I think even with that, blasting for me isn’t a good idea. My bloodwork doesn’t go out of whack besides my liver and hematocrit, but I get so inflamed, bloated, and just look and biggest of all FEEL unhealthy. I think if your body feels unwell, that’s a pretty obvious sign despite bloodwork looking okay. And masking everything with ancillaries isn’t a good plan IMO.
I mean, I started taking Proviron at 50mg a day and my BP was 167 systolic just sitting around. I can take BP meds, but I could also just not take certain things. I don’t know why my body is increasingly more sensitive over the years
I talked with DanielTX a lot (RIP), and his death hit me pretty hard. He also had some good family genetics as far as longevity and resilience to lifestyle choices goes. He took every health precaution there was as far as ancillaries, and I believe he truly thought he’d be good to go. Unfortunately what happened happened, and it was a wake up call for me.

Thats a really impressive natural point, How were the results off of your first cycle and what was your first cycles? How educated and well did you execute diet and training to get to 220 and a 700lbs naturally? Sounds like you have some great genetics for being strong and big


Maybe you could find a setup where you can leverage more gh, insulin and sprinkle in some short esters or orals and adjust when you feel things going south. Im just brainstorming here :)
Thank you, I was always very strong naturally, and I also squatted 740 and benched over 500 naturally.
I was very educated to be honest, I started reading forums when I was 14-15 years old. Doggcrapp articles, elitefts, etc.
My father was a natural bodybuilder with ripped 19 inch arms who worked out after his blue collar work shifts. And around 15 I joined a hardcore gym and was taught how to lift by top level powerlifters, some who trained at Westside, and also who learned how to lift in prison (that’s where my affinity for volume comes from, prison yard programming mixed with HIT and powerlifting). I’ve followed a strict diet since my teen years too.

I have a lot of fast twitch muscle, and my lifting style is extremely explosive. My jumping/broad jumping/sprints are also high level

When I was 220lbs and deadlifting and squatting 700 I was trained by Josh Bryant/JailhouseStrong, and I was training under him directly for a few years. He really brought out my strength potential

I always wanted to try gear, but I was still making gains and looked great natural. Then I joined the Army and did ten years in SOF, and never wanted to do gear because I was scared I’d crash my test and not be able to get more while deployed or something. I hyped it up to something more than it was

My first cycle was when I got out of the Army a few years ago (the Army and Ranger School especially crashed my natural test), and honestly wasn’t too eventful. It was 500mg test and I didn’t gain as much strength as I thought I would, but my body mutated and I got way bigger. Got up to 250lbs from 220ish and a lot of it was muscle. This cycle was over a year. I added GH too from the get go at up to 10ius. I don’t take GH anymore because of the water retention. It’s intramuscular but I don’t need 10lbs of useless weight to carry around in a burning building.
 

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