How much gear is too much? The REAL point of diminishing returns

[PRorER]

Wanted to post here instead of starting a new thread. I just lowered my dose of total gear. I was running 1250mg Test, 800mg Primo. But at 6' 185lbs, I decided to drop it down to 750mg Test, 600mg Primo last week. I wasn't really experiencing negative sides at all, and was gaining really well, but I figured it was the right thing to do, and up the dose when I stop gaining. Anyone disagree that was the right move?

Ehhh those are both pretty decent numbers (2050 and 1350). I’ve seen a few of your pics and you’ve got a good physique but if you would have told me either those were your doses I’d be surprised considering you’re 185lbs. I’d be willing to bet you could progress on even lower if your diet and training are also dialed in

 

[Cerberus777]

Ehhh those are both pretty decent numbers (2050 and 1350). I’ve seen a few of your pics and you’ve got a good physique but if you would have told me either those were your doses I’d be surprised considering you’re 185lbs. I’d be willing to bet you could progress on even lower if your diet and training are also dialed in

5'6" 200lbs I grow slow on a gram total gear @ 51yrs old. I agree.

 

[cdnyc85]

The most important/meaningful side effect to impact long term survival are the adverse cardiovascular changes. That includes various things like atherosclerosis, cardiac remodeling (left ventricular hypertrophy, stiffening of the heart tissue), and reduced ejection fraction. You don't "notice" these things happening. They're just cumulative changes. And eventually they may get bad enough that an adverse event occurs that kills you. Unless you're doing regular echocardiograms and get cardiac CTA and/or CT done periodically, you have no idea what damage has been done. Blood work only shows if you're currently in a state that is doing harm to various organs, but if you have been running high doses of aas for 15 years and you've been off for a year, your blood work may look great right, but the cumulative damage is already done to your CV system.

 

[hawkmoon]

Wanted to post here instead of starting a new thread. I just lowered my dose of total gear. I was running 1250mg Test, 800mg Primo. But at 6' 185lbs, I decided to drop it down to 750mg Test, 600mg Primo last week. I wasn't really experiencing negative sides at all, and was gaining really well, but I figured it was the right thing to do, and up the dose when I stop gaining. Anyone disagree that was the right move?

I agree.
Many use more than they need.

Lock in food and training.
When the scale stops moving and lifts don't progress, incrementally increase the dose.

In MANY cases guys can cut their doses and not lose anything but side effects.

 

[gulfcoast]

More is not always better especially when you get older.
I look great on true TRT of 150mg week but go to 300 plus 300 NPP or EQ a couple times a year and can tell a big difference. It doesn't take grams to show improvement.

 

[qbkilla]

The most important/meaningful side effect to impact long term survival are the adverse cardiovascular changes. That includes various things like atherosclerosis, cardiac remodeling (left ventricular hypertrophy, stiffening of the heart tissue), and reduced ejection fraction. You don't "notice" these things happening. They're just cumulative changes. And eventually they may get bad enough that an adverse event occurs that kills you. Unless you're doing regular echocardiograms and get cardiac CTA and/or CT done periodically, you have no idea what damage has been done. Blood work only shows if you're currently in a state that is doing harm to various organs, but if you have been running high doses of aas for 15 years and you've been off for a year, your blood work may look great right, but the cumulative damage is already done to your CV system.

Does an ekg and chest x ray give any indication of heart health or the things you mentioned?

 

[Fleezy]

I’m at the point where I’m only going to be using testosterone GH and insulin from now on tbh

Too many variables, too much to think about

I feel like - with these compounds, health issues aren’t much of a concern - as my bp is controlled and I don’t have factor 5

I’m ditching the Eq and nandrolone.. only really concerned with maintaining and improving upon what I already have, and getting my hair back

I might use EQ again once my hair has returned and stabilized… but unlikely

And I feel that fina and duta will be enough to protect my hair from DHT conversion from the testosterone

 

[cdnyc85]

Does an ekg and chest x ray give any indication of heart health or the things you mentioned?

A chest xray isn't going to show anything related to your heart. Lungs only. An ekg can often show subtle changes that a cardiologist can interpret as indicating adverse changes to the heart such as left ventricle hypertrophy that will make your rhythm come back as abnormal, but not always. An ECG is much more insightful and you get more information. Ekg could be normal with an abnormal ECG.

And an ECG can be done in office by any clinical cardiologist. They don't need insurance prior authorization and don't need to send you to an imaging center. So it's really quite easy. Everyone should be doing it. Cardiac CTA provides great information re: hard and soft plaque deposits BUT you'll need insurance prior authorization because it's more expensive and has to be done at a special imaging center. Also it exposes you to significant radiation, so this is not a test you want to do on any regular basis.

 

[Massive G]

I’m at the point where I’m only going to be using testosterone GH and insulin from now on tbh

Too many variables, too much to think about

I feel like - with these compounds, health issues aren’t much of a concern - as my bp is controlled and I don’t have factor 5

I’m ditching the Eq and nandrolone.. only really concerned with maintaining and improving upon what I already have, and getting my hair back

I might use EQ again once my hair has returned and stabilized… but unlikely

And I feel that fina and duta will be enough to protect my hair from DHT conversion from the testosterone

You cant go wrong with choice.

 

[Massive G]

Not sure if i replied in this thread but everyone has a threshold and every experienced juicer on here has at one point tried higher doses at settled on a sweet spot once things settled down. It's always a battle between side effects and results.

 

[M@NU]

I’m at the point where I’m only going to be using testosterone GH and insulin from now on tbh

Too many variables, too much to think about

I feel like - with these compounds, health issues aren’t much of a concern - as my bp is controlled and I don’t have factor 5

I’m ditching the Eq and nandrolone.. only really concerned with maintaining and improving upon what I already have, and getting my hair back

I might use EQ again once my hair has returned and stabilized… but unlikely

And I feel that fina and duta will be enough to protect my hair from DHT conversion from the testosterone

i will probably go the same route from now on.
I always thought going mod Test + high DHTs was the way to go but now that i finally got the willpower to drop to a cruise (400mg test) i see that i react very well to test and dont even need an AI at this dosage.
for my next plan i will probably just up the test and include an AI. high GH and some insulin is always on the menu

 

[luki7788]

I’m at the point where I’m only going to be using testosterone GH and insulin from now on tbh

Too many variables, too much to think about

I feel like - with these compounds, health issues aren’t much of a concern - as my bp is controlled and I don’t have factor 5

I’m ditching the Eq and nandrolone.. only really concerned with maintaining and improving upon what I already have, and getting my hair back

I might use EQ again once my hair has returned and stabilized… but unlikely

And I feel that fina and duta will be enough to protect my hair from DHT conversion from the testosterone

You cant go wrong with choice.

I agree but only If you want to stay within the range of no more than 1000mg, then the test itself + bioidentical hormones will definitely be the best option in terms of health, but if you want to go, for example, 1500mg+, I already think that the costs of aromatization control, blood pressure control, etc. and what additional medications will have to be used to control it will be less cost-effective, considering all the negatives and positives, than adding something like primo, but that's just my opinion.

 

[PissedPajamas]

I’m running 900mg test/600mg EQ and started running into hypertension issues that I didn’t experience at 750mg test. That’s been my sweet spot for as long as I can remember, and things never bode well past it. Granted I was sick and been stressed out of my mind lately, but everytime I’ve pushed it past 750mg my body has fought back

Incorporating some HIIT cardio and elliptical work twice a week just to see how that helps. But if things don’t improve I might just move around the doses and throw in some mast to cover the milligrams

Firm believer in more is not better with test anymore. I’ll probably keep things at 750mg for my next blast

 

[massephase]

I’m running 900mg test/600mg EQ and started running into hypertension issues that I didn’t experience at 750mg test. That’s been my sweet spot for as long as I can remember, and things never bode well past it. Granted I was sick and been stressed out of my mind lately, but everytime I’ve pushed it past 750mg my body has fought back

Incorporating some HIIT cardio and elliptical work twice a week just to see how that helps. But if things don’t improve I might just move around the doses and throw in some mast to cover the milligrams

Firm believer in more is not better with test anymore. I’ll probably keep things at 750mg for my next blast

Im sorry for you man… guess we all have our limitations/ breaking points

 

[gulfcoast]

I’m at the point where I’m only going to be using testosterone GH and insulin from now on tbh

Too many variables, too much to think about

I feel like - with these compounds, health issues aren’t much of a concern - as my bp is controlled and I don’t have factor 5

I’m ditching the Eq and nandrolone.. only really concerned with maintaining and improving upon what I already have, and getting my hair back

I might use EQ again once my hair has returned and stabilized… but unlikely

And I feel that fina and duta will be enough to protect my hair from DHT conversion from the testosterone

Hopefully in the next year or two they have a new drug out that's under development, it turns the hair follicles back on and the hair grows again.

 

[Klax]

What frustrates me is the polarization of this topic. For instance, you have threads like this where a lot of people are saying 500-750mg of test is enough, and anything else is a waste. And right above it, we have Big A's thread from years ago, with hundreds of members agreeing that successful physiques are built on grams upon grams, and 1g test is a cruise when you're serious.

It's head-spinning. For years, I've bounced back and forth between "I need to up the dose if I want to grow" and "I should be responsible, and lower it. My body probably can't even handle all this AAS."

 

[traininsane11]

What frustrates me is the polarization of this topic. For instance, you have threads like this where a lot of people are saying 500-750mg of test is enough, and anything else is a waste. And right above it, we have Big A's thread from years ago, with hundreds of members agreeing that successful physiques are built on grams upon grams, and 1g test is a cruise when you're serious.

It's head-spinning. For years, I've bounced back and forth between "I need to up the dose if I want to grow" and "I should be responsible, and lower it. My body probably can't even handle all this AAS."

I think you know the answer and it’s not the more option there may be a reason a lot of those mega high dose members no longer post here and it’s not because they got to big and won the mr Olympia multiple times and retired into the sunset

 

[M@NU]

What frustrates me is the polarization of this topic. For instance, you have threads like this where a lot of people are saying 500-750mg of test is enough, and anything else is a waste. And right above it, we have Big A's thread from years ago, with hundreds of members agreeing that successful physiques are built on grams upon grams, and 1g test is a cruise when you're serious.

It's head-spinning. For years, I've bounced back and forth between "I need to up the dose if I want to grow" and "I should be responsible, and lower it. My body probably can't even handle all this AAS."

i would love to run mega dosages and grow.
but apparently my body doesnt like it xD

 

[traininsane11]

i would love to run mega dosages and grow.
but apparently my body doesnt like it xD

Not challenging you but curious - why would you want to “run mega dosages”?

I genuinely don’t get why people WANT to run crazy amounts of gear for the sake of it

I always thought the idea was to run the minimal amount required to get the desired results?

 

[M@NU]

if you would get no side effects and no systemic inflammation the higher the dosage the better the result.
but in a real world, there comes the point were an increase in dosage results in more side effects than benefits.