How much juice do you need to gain muscle?

[OuchThatHurts]

No#1 I did not bring this up for bragging purposes or to show off for the
reason I don't feel I'm even close to some of these guys here on this
board. all I wanted was some information about what I was doing wrong
No#2 I've never had pictures of me here for the reason that I'm computer
illiterate as hell and far from an exabitionist. But for your curiousitly I do
have some vacation pictures that I'll try to get my girl friend to post up.
Not much to see but you will get an Idea and that will be all you get cause
I don't feel comfortable with the way I look right now. Now when I'm able
to get her off her ass for this it will be in the members photo. Excuse the
mid section this was taken a while back.

Still though, 275 at 12% bodyfat? Are you sure you're that low in percentage? How did you arrive at 12%? I'm just curious because everyone says what their BF% is and I never know what the hell mine is... when I was 240 at 5'9, I had to be high teens or 20% I'm just guessing. But if you are that size and composition naturally, man... that's HUGE (for a 6ft guy).

 

[OuchThatHurts]

Which of these is most likely to be true?

So which of the following do you believe are true?

A. Training and Diet

1. Achieving size and strength is attributed to genetics and we are pretty
much stuck with what we have. Train all you want, eat tons, but you will
never look like the guys you see in magazines, shows, etc.

2. Training properly with a proper diet and rest will always yield good
results giving anyone an impressive physique over time possibly but
not necessarily rivaling genetically gifted physiques.

3. Training properly with a proper diet will give everyone an opportunity to
compete amongst the pros and other competitors regardless of good or bad
genetics.

B. AAS and Supplements

1. Pros and competitive lifters don't want you to know what extreme doses they take since this would somehow negate their efforts to train and diet
properly, making their gains more about how many chemicals they take and
less about training and knowledge.

2. Average lifters WANT to believe the pros take massive amounts of drugs in
the hopes that they too, can possibly match the gains and proportions of
competitive athletes. Perhaps to possibly make up for holes in their own
training and dieting programs (or poor genetics).

3. Pros and competitive athletes DO NOT use extreme amounts of supplements and
are genetically gifted and use advanced training techniques and dieting in
such a way that they can achieve huge size and strength.

 

[b-boy]

So which of the following do you believe are true?

A. Training and Diet

1. Achieving size and strength is attributed to genetics and we are pretty
much stuck with what we have. Train all you want, eat tons, but you will
never look like the guys you see in magazines, shows, etc.

2. Training properly with a proper diet and rest will always yield good
results giving anyone an impressive physique over time possibly but
not necessarily rivaling genetically gifted physiques.

3. Training properly with a proper diet will give everyone an opportunity to
compete amongst the pros and other competitors regardless of good or bad
genetics.

B. AAS and Supplements

1. Pros and competitive lifters don't want you to know what extreme doses they take since this would somehow negate their efforts to train and diet
properly, making their gains more about how many chemicals they take and
less about training and knowledge.

2. Average lifters WANT to believe the pros take massive amounts of drugs in
the hopes that they too, can possibly match the gains and proportions of
competitive athletes. Perhaps to possibly make up for holes in their own
training and dieting programs (or poor genetics).

3. Pros and competitive athletes DO NOT use extreme amounts of supplements and
are genetically gifted and use advanced training techniques and dieting in
such a way that they can achieve huge size and strength.

A. answer #2 and B. answer #2

 

[HELLA SWOLE]

A. answer #2 and B. answer #2

Ditto....my thoughts exactly.

 

[bigheinz]

SINCE WHEN WAS LEE HANEY 222 POUNDS?? WHO IS TELLING YOU THESE THINGS/ WHAT ARE YOU READING? THIS IS GETTING SILLY.

I dont know why you are attacking me, but if this makes you happy, keep going.

 

[Massive G]

I saw Haney guest post at 275 in 1989 and he was lean.

ouch,
Throw me in 2 B and 2 A.
I think you guys will find the people that have been in the game and cycled for a while will answer the same way.

Hell I thought I could go pro on 3 bottles of test enanthate about a decade ago LOL.

We realize the pro card isn't a secret super cycle away.

I don't know how many posts I have seen over the years from guys thinking they are gonna get 10-15 lbs of muscle per cycle.
High doses super cycles, slin, insulin, GH, clen, DNP, ephedrine, IGF-1 etc etc etc isn't gonna help the guy with narrow shoulders, long torso, lack of thigh sweep, high muscle insertions, and a light frame.
But there will be many chasing the holy grail and fall far short.

 

[STEVO 47]

Still though, 275 at 12% bodyfat? Are you sure you're that low in percentage?

Well like I said in the I think the second or third post, I probably
stretched it a bit on that statement But when I told my girl friend she laughed so hard she almost past out. So As you can see in the members
photo sec. I'm not very good at eyeballing my body fat. I will give myself
a little credit I do have muscle. Just problems around that damn
stomach.

P.S. I didn't bring my measurments up for discussion. I wanted to get
more infor. on how much test was needed for a person of my
weight. I just haven't been able to grow on test period.

 

[LATS]

well.. haney was 250 pounds in his last olympia..

 

[STEVO 47]

Stevo,
claims of this size must be supported with pictures. otherwise we must assume you are like many others.....come on now....man up.

Now my turn. Since I was called out and had to post my shit. I think
it would only be fare to see what you have to show. Even vacation
pics. or mowing the lawn If you have all ready let me know. I'll be
looking.

 

[tflexxin]

Now my turn. Since I was called out and had to post my shit. I think
it would only be fare to see what you have to show. Even vacation
pics. or mowing the lawn If you have all ready let me know. I'll be
looking.

I have both contest and pre-contest photos posted in the members photos section.
Sorry bro, but 275 at 12% is huge, by anyones standards. In this forum, we share experiences, and knowledge. The proof is in the pudding, so to speak. You have to back up your claims, or we (I) will assume you don't know what you're talking about. I'm not blasting you in any way. If you post your photos, people here will not make fun of you, UNLESS you have posted that you are some freaky huge guy with 0% bodyfat, and your pic does not back up that claim. You might find that posting your picture would get you a more accurate bodyfat guestimate, as well as some constructive criticism from a group with a wealth of bodybuilding knowledge.
This is not getbig.com. If you notice, there is very little if any flaming, and I think we should all keep it that way.
Hell, if I can offer anyone information on my past experiences that would help them out, I'm more than willing. that's why I'm on this board, to learn from others, and share as well.

 

[drgoodbody]

Genetics! Pure and simple.

Why oh why do I see these topics come up over and over?! Is it because people need "the zen master of common sense" to come on here and set it straight for you?

Look, I am not genetically gifted from a physique point of view, nor from an athletic point of view. I could juice myself with every drug possible and eat 10 meals a day and train like an animal and I still won't look like Ronnie, Cutler, Hernon or any other pro BB. My genetics just aren't there.

Similarly I could run a 100 miles a week and never be an olympic marathoner, or take batting practice for 6 hours a day and never be major league player, or shoot hoops for a 100 hours a week and never slam a ball. Or play golf every day and never be like Tiger. My genetics haven't gifted with me with exceptional eye-hand coordination or exceptional size, strength or speed.

You see, I accept that and hence I don't destroy my body by abusing drugs, over eating, or using ridiculous training regimens to try and be something I can never be.

On the other hand, I was gifted with exceptional genes when it comes to my mind. I never struggled in school, never in college, never in grad school. My memory and ability for recall is shocking, it even surprises me. I watched other people all throughout my life study for hours, where I could review the material once and it was imprinted. I could sit through a lecture once and have perfect recall. I went to the top grad school in the US, got 2 masters and a Phd in 6 years and never broke a sweat. I watched kids from all over the world study a 100 times harder than me and not be half as successful. Why? GENETICS. I got lucky, my neurons fire a little faster than other peoples, my brain chemistry works a little better than most, my IQ is off the chart, and I've never worked hard for it. Even in business, shit comes easy to me. Things that I view as simple others struggle with. Why? GENETICS. I can thank my parents for it.

I'm using myself as the example here, so people get the point. Not every one will be a pro athlete no matter how much you train, drug, eat, etc... Not every one will be a nobel laureate no matter how much you study in school. GENETICs play an immense role in what end state you can achieve. People like to ignore this and say "bullshit, all men are created equal". Yeah right.

hoping more people get a clue,

DrG

 

[OuchThatHurts]

Looks like this genius just slammed down the gavel on us. You may have book smarts but you have a ways to go in your delivery method. Well I don't agree and I'm also a victim of higher learning... Of course genetics are going to be a limiting factor when you get to the highest levels. Everyday people can achieve spectacular physiques. I've seen it first hand. That's like saying, "You might as well not even try golf, because you'll never be as good as Tiger Woods because of your genetics." That's nonsense. I know some exceptional golfers who will never be pros but they are good enough to impress the hell out of me. I know some guys on this board who will never be pros but I'll be the first to say "Damn!!! That guy is huge!" I see this genetics card being played just as much as the AAS card. "He has that size because he has good genetics (or because he takes HUGE AAS)." Yeah, right! Not because he worked his ass off and spent years, working hard everyday to get to that level. Genetically, I'm 5'9, 170lbs. So why am I sitting here cut at 215lbs? I can garauntee it wasn't my genetics that did it. I'm tired of hearing this genetics crap. Get your ass into the gym and work your ass off with some intensity and eat food and get rest. You WILL get bigger. Hell, you'll probably get huge! Pure and simple.

Genetics! Pure and simple.

Why oh why do I see these topics come up over and over?! Is it because people need "the zen master of common sense" to come on here and set it straight for you?

Look, I am not genetically gifted from a physique point of view, nor from an athletic point of view. I could juice myself with every drug possible and eat 10 meals a day and train like an animal and I still won't look like Ronnie, Cutler, Hernon or any other pro BB. My genetics just aren't there.

Similarly I could run a 100 miles a week and never be an olympic marathoner, or take batting practice for 6 hours a day and never be major league player, or shoot hoops for a 100 hours a week and never slam a ball. Or play golf every day and never be like Tiger. My genetics haven't gifted with me with exceptional eye-hand coordination or exceptional size, strength or speed.

You see, I accept that and hence I don't destroy my body by abusing drugs, over eating, or using ridiculous training regimens to try and be something I can never be.

On the other hand, I was gifted with exceptional genes when it comes to my mind. I never struggled in school, never in college, never in grad school. My memory and ability for recall is shocking, it even surprises me. I watched other people all throughout my life study for hours, where I could review the material once and it was imprinted. I could sit through a lecture once and have perfect recall. I went to the top grad school in the US, got 2 masters and a Phd in 6 years and never broke a sweat. I watched kids from all over the world study a 100 times harder than me and not be half as successful. Why? GENETICS. I got lucky, my neurons fire a little faster than other peoples, my brain chemistry works a little better than most, my IQ is off the chart, and I've never worked hard for it. Even in business, shit comes easy to me. Things that I view as simple others struggle with. Why? GENETICS. I can thank my parents for it.

I'm using myself as the example here, so people get the point. Not every one will be a pro athlete no matter how much you train, drug, eat, etc... Not every one will be a nobel laureate no matter how much you study in school. GENETICs play an immense role in what end state you can achieve. People like to ignore this and say "bullshit, all men are created equal". Yeah right.

hoping more people get a clue,

DrG

 

[drgoodbody]

Yeah, and I'm tired of hearing about how average joe can look like a pro if he eats, trains and abuses drugs. BTW, I've been on year for heck of a lot longer than most and have seen and heard every argument on this topic. And we're not talking about looking better through exercise and diet, we're talking about being a professional athlete. So your analogy fof "you might as well not even try golf" is just wrong - nobody said that. I said that I know personally that I can't achieve pro status as athlete given my genetics, and frankly most of the people on this board can't either. Should they give up bettering themselves? No. But they should probably take a dose of reality and think about what they are doing. 6 grams a week won't make up for shitty genes, sorry.

BTW, your delivery method needs work as well. And I'd be happy to go head to head with anyone intellectually.

Looks like this genius just slammed down the gavel on us. You may have book smarts but you have a ways to go in your delivery method. Well I don't agree and I'm also a victim of higher learning... Of course genetics are going to be a limiting factor when you get to the highest levels. Everyday people can achieve spectacular physiques. I've seen it first hand. That's like saying, "You might as well not even try golf, because you'll never be as good as Tiger Woods because of your genetics." That's nonsense. I know some exceptional golfers who will never be pros but they are good enough to impress the hell out of me. I know some guys on this board who will never be pros but I'll be the first to say "Damn!!! That guy is huge!" I see this genetics card being played just as much as the AAS card. "He has that size because he has good genetics (or because he takes HUGE AAS)." Yeah, right! Not because he worked his ass off and spent years, working hard everyday to get to that level. Genetically, I'm 5'9, 170lbs. So why am I sitting here cut at 215lbs? I can garauntee it wasn't my genetics that did it. I'm tired of hearing this genetics crap. Get your ass into the gym and work your ass off with some intensity and eat food and get rest. You WILL get bigger. Hell, you'll probably get huge! Pure and simple.

 

[OuchThatHurts]

Yeah, and I'm tired of hearing about how average joe can look like a pro if he eats, trains and abuses drugs. BTW, I've been on year for heck of a lot longer than most and have seen and heard every argument on this topic. And we're not talking about looking better through exercise and diet, we're talking about being a professional athlete. So your analogy fof "you might as well not even try golf" is just wrong - nobody said that. I said that I know personally that I can't achieve pro status as athlete given my genetics, and frankly most of the people on this board can't either. Should they give up bettering themselves? No. But they should probably take a dose of reality and think about what they are doing. 6 grams a week won't make up for shitty genes, sorry.

BTW, your delivery method needs work as well. And I'd be happy to go head to head with anyone intellectually.

I haven't seen anyone say "If you follow this method, you'll look like a pro." I'm not about to go head to head with anyone, intellectually or otherwise. There are many people reading this board who don't even care to have a pro card. They just want to become larger and stronger and they keep having this genetics boot rammed up their ass. How could anyone remain positive when someone says "You just don't have the genetics, sorry." That's bullshit. Many of the analogies you used are learned traits! You think hand-eye coordination can't be learned? Yes, some have a greater natural degree but that doesn't mean someone can't work hard and develop it! A kid may understand the process of tying his shoelaces but until his fingers DEVELOP the coordination, he won't be able to.

I know it's a fictional story but I was watching yet another rerun of Rocky IV the other day. This guy goes up against this genetically superior, juiced-up Russian and wins. Why? Because of sheer will and determination.

You don't believe that determination can upset the genetics applecart? Well then you just struck out half of the stand-outs in every sport or walk of life in our athletic history. Actually, I'd hasten a guess that many of the best we've seen actually started out BEHIND the genetics eight-ball.

 

[drgoodbody]

Oh come on - you're being intentionally difficult here - which is fine. Nobody said that exercise and diet and drugs and determination and serendipity and blah blah blah... can't make a difference. But again you're confusing self-improvement with becoming world class at something, and that's where genetics differentiates the winners from the also-rans.

Oh and I agree determination plus genetics will trump genetics alone or determination alone. As for the analogies I've made, well they are observational truths, not "learned traits". The empirical evidence is there for anyone who wants to take an objective eye to the data. Training, determination and serendipity all play a role, but let's not ignore the data on this one. Genetics play a major role in every aspect of a person's development, mental and physical. And yeah, Rocky is fictional - so stick to the facts. I've seen many very determined people fail miserably, in school, in careers, in relationships, in sports, etc... And I've seen just as many half-baked efforts wind up in success (because of genetics or serendipity, etc).

You are entitled to your opinion on this, as am I.

 

[bellicose]

you guys need to get a fucking life...all of you. Chill the fuck out, you sound like a bunch of bitches arguing back and forth

You take this way too seriously...go outside and get some fresh air or something

 

[STEVO 47]

I have both contest and pre-contest photos posted in the members photos section.

OK first off I looked for your contest and pre-contest photos. Couldn't
find them. I'm surrrre there there. I'll look again. Thing is like I said.
I wanted information, I never thought I'd have to prove myself to you
or anyone else about my size and fat %. Like I said even before I was
christ knows called out by you that I wasn't right about my fat %. I
admitted that right away. And the thing about some guys on this board
If you even miss spell a freakin word it seems to give them something
the rag about. There just lookin for a conflict. Now to easy your mind
as you can see My weight is what was stated but I guess I'll have to
buy a fat measuring instrument. then I'll know exactly what it is.
I don't compete, never did for the
28 years I've lifted so I really never had a reason to know exactly what
my fat % was or is. So I hope this clears things up for ya.

 

[OuchThatHurts]

Oh come on - you're being intentionally difficult here - which is fine....

....Training, determination and serendipity all play a role, but let's not ignore the data on this one. Genetics play a major role in every aspect of a person's development, mental and physical.

I'm stating my opinion. If you want to be flippant about it, that's your prerogative.

What data and empirical evidence are you referring to? I'm agreeing with you on this last comment that genetics plays a MAJOR role. But that's it. A role. Your first post implied something different entirely. Ambition, determination, and desire are the other half of the equation.

So that we're not confused here, I'm not (and wasn't) speaking in terms of world class athletes where determination, genetics, and ambition ALL have to converge. And what is a champion? The champion is simply the finality of self-improvement. We all can benefit from self-improvement. I intentionally left out serendipity. Although a colorful word, luck or something accidental do not apply to our discussion.

 

[drgoodbody]

Data on nature (e.g. genetics) vs. nurture (e.g. training, etc) has been argued forever and we're not settling it here today (I'm not doing a lit search for you, I haven't the time). And I'm hardly being flippant, I'm stating my perception of what you're saying which seems to be intentionally argumentative and difficult.

And I'm certainly not confused as to what it is I'm saying. I disagree about serendipity - it plays a role here if we're talking about what it takes to rise to elite status in sports. Lucky breaks, lucky catches, unlucky injuries to you or up and coming competitors, etc... are all part of the equation when talking about things that affect someone becoming a champion.

 

[OuchThatHurts]

Data on nature (e.g. genetics) vs. nurture (e.g. training, etc) has been argued forever and we're not settling it here today (I'm not doing a lit search for you, I haven't the time). And I'm hardly being flippant, I'm stating my perception of what you're saying which seems to be intentionally argumentative and difficult.

And I'm certainly not confused as to what it is I'm saying. I disagree about serendipity - it plays a role here if we're talking about what it takes to rise to elite status in sports. Lucky breaks, lucky catches, unlucky injuries to you or up and coming competitors, etc... are all part of the equation when talking about things that affect someone becoming a champion.

What possible reason could I have for being intentionally difficult? You think I enjoy this? You came in to this thread with both guns blazing, talking about "Why oh why do I see these topics come up over and over?! Is it because people need "the zen master of common sense" to come on here and set it straight for you?" and then you kind of got shot down because everyone knows (or should) that it takes more than genetics to get to the top and the person at the top isn't always necessarily the person with the best genetics.

Okay, you have me convinced about the serendipity. So we have ambition, genetics, determination, all wrapped up nice and neat and sprinkled with a little serendipity. Oh brother...

oh yeah, and fiction or not you gotta go watch Rocky baby!