How/why insulin would benefit those who already produce it?

[Knight9]

As I said, I don't doubt insulin works. I know how many guys report good gains from it. But it doesn't seem to cause supraphysiological levels of insulin significantly beyond what the healthy body already produces. And the reason why natural insulin doesn't cause you to go Hypo isnt because it's less potent but because the body releases it in proportion to blood sugar, whereas exogenous insulin is not tied to blood sugar and therefore can be elevated when blood sugar is not.

Supraphysiological levels of insulin? Dude what are you talking about? You use insulin to create a super surge of nutrient partitioning that you can't do to the same degree or effect naturally with your pancreas. It's also doing the job for your pancreas creating less of a load and likely a somewhat healthier way of doing things when you are going to bombard it with sugars and nutrients. No one taking insulin is looking for 'SUPRAPHYSIOLOGICAL LEVELS OF INSULIN'. They're looking for efficient shuttling and an additive or synergystic dance it does with growth hormone. What in the world is this post even about?

 

[Reno911]

I do feel Humalog is possibly more of a "cosmetic" effect but I do feel that shuttling the nutrients into the muscle can create real hypertrophy vs. just a cosmetic effect.

Also, for me Lantus is a whole different ballgame. I feel that it works best when used for longer periods of time. I usually start at 25iu and work up to 50-55iu over a few months. I think with Lantus, about 3 months is the longest you should run it at doses under 55iu or so. If you push the dosages into the 70-75iu+ range I think that a person should definitely cut the length of time down- maybe 6 weeks tops. I also feel letting the "new" muscle setting in over time helps it become more permanent vs. cosmetic.

 

[Fit2Serve]

As for whether ive tried it, I did experiment a little bit about a decade ago, and noticed more fullness with lanrus but didn't really experience any significant muscle gains either way (though I wasn't using GH and didn't experiment for too long anyways)

i never said it helped grow muscle.
-F2S

 

[Fit2Serve]

Supraphysiological levels of insulin? Dude what are you talking about? You use insulin to create a super surge of nutrient partitioning that you can't do to the same degree or effect naturally with your pancreas. It's also doing the job for your pancreas creating less of a load and likely a somewhat healthier way of doing things when you are going to bombard it with sugars and nutrients. No one taking insulin is looking for 'SUPRAPHYSIOLOGICAL LEVELS OF INSULIN'. They're looking for efficient shuttling and an additive or synergystic dance it does with growth hormone. What in the world is this post even about?

well said Knight!
-F

 

[MooseKnuckles]

I used Novolin R for around 5 weeks starting at 5iu and worked up to 12iu preworkout with 4iu GH with intra workout carbs, never noticed anything insane or maybe I was expecting to much, I was always told the pump was insane.

 

[Freedom15Muscle]

I think its definitely a tool to build mass in a surplus. Like Knight said its for shuttling nutrients. There's no way a person could eat 600 grams of carbs naturally and keep blood sugar in check (some could I can't). Insulin drops blood sugar which is how you want to use it, and if you use it and pound food you will get FAT. Use the insulin in conjunction with your carb intake. When it becomes ineffective or you spill over you've gone too far. Back off, modify our carb intake, and use GDAs to resensitize.

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[Biggerp73]

Supraphysiological levels of insulin? Dude what are you talking about? You use insulin to create a super surge of nutrient partitioning that you can't do to the same degree or effect naturally with your pancreas. It's also doing the job for your pancreas creating less of a load and likely a somewhat healthier way of doing things when you are going to bombard it with sugars and nutrients. No one taking insulin is looking for 'SUPRAPHYSIOLOGICAL LEVELS OF INSULIN'. They're looking for efficient shuttling and an additive or synergystic dance it does with growth hormone. What in the world is this post even about?

The guy I responded to said the reason why insulin works is the same reason why testosterone works - because it results in more of the hormone (ie supraphysiological levels). I was responding to that. Perhaps try and read before you respond! ��

Now I understand the argument that taking the stress off the pancrease is supposed to be healthier. But if the levels of insulin in the body aren't elevated above normal, then I don't see how its supposed to be more effective than natural.

 

[Knight9]

The guy I responded to said the reason why insulin works is the same reason why testosterone works - because it results in more of the hormone (ie supraphysiological levels). I was responding to that. Perhaps try and read before you respond! ��

Now I understand the argument that taking the stress off the pancrease is supposed to be healthier. But if the levels of insulin in the body aren't elevated above normal, then I don't see how its supposed to be more effective than natural.

Man this nonsense is driving me crazy tonight. What answer are you looking for?
Why dont you tell me what you mean by levels of insulin in the body? Are you talking about your pancreas secreting insulin or are you talking about getting a blood test for insulin levels? Because what you're calling it makes me think the latter, but I'm assuming your pancreas producing insulin to lower your blood sugar is what you mean.

Whoever told you endogenous insulin is as efficient and effective as what your pancreas produces was wrong. The only time I've seen things look, feel, or operate like I was using insulin was when I was basically in contest shape during rebounds and my insulin sensitivity was at an all time high.

I cant scientifically prove this but a bro- science explanation would have insulin being able to jam-pack/SHOVE nutrients IN EXCESS into cells where they wouldnt be able to fit or be forced in to the same degree with the body's secretion and handling of them.
It's about efficiency and volumizing the cells.

Nutrients are being FORCED in effectively and efficiently whereas without insulin...your blood sugar comes down but your nutrients arent forced and partitioned to the same degree.





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[Knight9]

So...to reiterate -
Highly efficient storage of nutrients ...volumizing effects and partitioning...and pairing well with anabolic hormones and growth hormone also likely a player in IGF surges when combined with GH.

And who still doesn't think it helps you grow? Fouad? Luke? It has its place for many when used correctly.

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[danieltx]

Now I understand the argument that taking the stress off the pancrease is supposed to be healthier. But if the levels of insulin in the body aren't elevated above normal, then I don't see how its supposed to be more effective than natural.

This is not like testosterone where we're normally in a certain range and have to hit a supraphysiological range to see big changes. You don't hear people giving out insulin doses like they say 500mg or 1000mg testosterone because it doesn't work like that. Insulin doses should be based on your carb intake. For some, that's only 5IU preworkout; for others, it's 60IU over the course of the day both preworkout and before meals.

Using exogenous insulin is about being healthy by controlling your blood sugar and not exhausting your pancreas, making the most gains possible while in a significant caloric surplus, and more efficiently utilizing all your nutrients.

 

[Biggerp73]

Knight, chill dude. Since post number one I've clearly and repeatedly stated that I know insulin works. That isn't the question (ie, "does it actually work?"). The question I am asking is about how/why it works. Yes, I know the idea is to shuttle nutrients into the muscle (and to some extent to decrease protein breakdown as well). And again, I don't doubt insulin actually does accomplish this. The question is why/how. Simply taking stress off the pancrease would probably not explain these effects but would only tell us that using it can be healthy. The question is, if the body naturally releases more and more insulin in response to elevated blood sugar, and if the amount of insulin being injected doesn't result in substantially more insulin than would otherwise occur, then how/why does this actually cause those effects you've described. You suggested that exogenous insulin itself may be more powerful, iu per iu, than natural insulin. Perhaps there is some structural difference which causes exogenous insulin to more powerfully bind or activate the receptor? That could be an explanation. I'm not sure. That's what I want to discuss! ��

 

[Biggerp73]

This is not like testosterone where we're normally in a certain range and have to hit a supraphysiological range to see big changes. You don't hear people giving out insulin doses like they say 500mg or 1000mg testosterone because it doesn't work like that. Insulin doses should be based on your carb intake. For some, that's only 5IU preworkout; for others, it's 60IU over the course of the day both preworkout and before meals.

Using exogenous insulin is about being healthy by controlling your blood sugar and not exhausting your pancreas, making the most gains possible while in a significant caloric surplus, and more efficiently utilizing all your nutrients.

The idea of being healthy is distinct from anabolism. If the pancrease is relaxed, great. But the amount of insulin it would have released per gram of carb ingested seems to be similar to the amount of insulin that will be injected per gram of carb ingested.

 

[Fluffy_XL]

Knight, chill dude. Since post number one I've clearly and repeatedly stated that I know insulin works. That isn't the question (ie, "does it actually work?"). The question I am asking is about how/why it works. Yes, I know the idea is to shuttle nutrients into the muscle (and to some extent to decrease protein breakdown as well). And again, I don't doubt insulin actually does accomplish this. The question is why/how. Simply taking stress off the pancrease would probably not explain these effects but would only tell us that using it can be healthy. The question is, if the body naturally releases more and more insulin in response to elevated blood sugar, and if the amount of insulin being injected doesn't result in substantially more insulin than would otherwise occur, then how/why does this actually cause those effects you've described. You suggested that exogenous insulin itself may be more powerful, iu per iu, than natural insulin. Perhaps there is some structural difference which causes exogenous insulin to more powerfully bind or activate the receptor? That could be an explanation. I'm not sure. That's what I want to discuss! ��

I can only hope he did express himself in a wrong way but this "suggestion" is plain bull - the body doesn't even notice a difference regarding the effectiveness.

In my eyes both of you talk at cross purposes.
Biggerp the problem is that endogenous insulin won't be provided immediately if needed after consuming large amounts of carbs. That means a longer time with high blood glucose and also a stressed pancreas.
Exogenous insulin often is that powerful because it works on point to full effect AND reduces the stress on the pancreas.
If you're talking Levemir and stuff like that the advantage is almost only about the decreased stress of the pancreas ...unless your diet and carb intake is absolutely on point 24/7.

 

[Elvia1023]

Everyone is different but I am sure the majority of guys who have used insulin will know the difference when compared to your bodies own. I am not even referring to large amounts either. The difference/effects are noticeable even at low doses.

 

[saudades]

This whole thread looks confusing, probably especially to any newbies.

Here's the way I understand it:

Body makes a certain amount of GH, testosterone, and insulin. We know that, right?

We all know that taking larger amounts of testosterone than what occurs in the body causes a greater increase in muscle size in training adults. Testosterone's job in essentially simple terms, is "build more muscle" for our purposes here.

GH when taken in larger amounts causes a shift from storing fat and burning glycogen to burning fat and preserving lean muscle. Also causes growth of nearly every tissue. Established, right?

Insulin's job is to regulate blood sugar. It draws nutrients into the cells and typically will store any extra as fat. Anyone who has taken insulin knows that if they take a lot and don't compensate with an intake of carbs, their blood sugar drops. Again, established, correct?

So to grow like the pros do, you must combine these three things with enough training and fuel. Having supraphysiological levels of all three components then act as so in response to heavy training and food: Huge amounts of testosterone/gear tell the muscles to grow, GH tells the body to preserve the muscle and burn fat and tells the tissues to grow, insulin causes the muscle cells to take in more of the fuel you give them--but because GH is telling the body to burn fat and not store it, the insulin won't generally make you fat (all else being equal). Again we're only talking simplistically here. There are obviously many other factors that are involved, and everyone responds differently, but for the basics to really truly grow as the pros do, this is what you would need.

Pros understandably take large amount of each of these components (regardless of whether this is healthy or not). Most pros typically won't tell you what they take or their dosages. The closest we get is when one spills something like Seth Feroce saying he took in the neighborhood of 20 iu of GH at one point. Look at the size of these pros. Muscles huge like a cartoon on most of them. You cannot achieve this without large amounts of all three components, genetics aside. Of course hyper responders who are genetically gifted grow so much better than the average person and not get sick on the huge amounts they use.

Refer back to BigA's thread: https://www.professionalmuscle.com/forums/professional-muscle-forum/53353-so-sick-heres-truth.html

 

[ill gotten gains]

The idea of being healthy is distinct from anabolism. If the pancrease is relaxed, great. But the amount of insulin it would have released per gram of carb ingested seems to be similar to the amount of insulin that will be injected per gram of carb ingested.

The release rate of natural insulin would be slower compared to exogenous insulin. It would not bring your blood sugar levels down nearly as fast as exogenous insulin.
Imagine a window opening slowly whereas exogenous insulin would blow it wide open

 

[Fluffy_XL]

The release rate of natural insulin would be slower compared to exogenous insulin. It would not bring your blood sugar levels down nearly as fast as exogenous insulin.
Imagine a window opening slowly whereas exogenous insulin would blow it wide open

This.

But that does NOT mean that exogenous insulin works better iu per iu or anything alike.

 

[Knight9]

The release rate of natural insulin would be slower compared to exogenous insulin. It would not bring your blood sugar levels down nearly as fast as exogenous insulin.

Imagine a window opening slowly whereas exogenous insulin would blow it wide open

Exactly, hence why I said it was stronger and more efficient.

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[ill gotten gains]

This.

But that does NOT mean that exogenous insulin works better iu per iu or anything alike.

The insulin itself is not better. You're just bypassing the body's process of making and delivering the insulin. This in turn delivers the insulin much faster making it a more efficient process which Knight stated.

 

[Freedom15Muscle]

Exogenous insulin is superior to natural insulin. When you consume carbs your body releases beta cells that signal insulin secretion. Your body can only create so many beta cells and only so much insulin, and ATP in the muscles. Exogenous insulin "blows the windows open".

It also has no effect on C-proteins like endogenous insulin, making it superior. High levels of C-proteins cause Tumor growth, high cortisol and a number of other issues.

Exogenous insulin when used with high amounts of carbohydrates and timed correctly can bring down blood sugar much quicker. Think about sides effects of high insulin...decreased cardiovascular function, inflammation, ect.

Only thing I have seen that is superior with natural insulin is production of GLUT4. GLUT4 is responsible for glucose transport and prevention of brown fat...which exogenous insulin will deplete, but again if you use it in moderation you won't have an issue.

Most of this is discussed frequently by Dave Palumbo....and most notedly a video posted by Elvia that had Milos throwing around some knowledge.


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